Controversial Therapy for Pre-Teen Transgender Patient Raises Questions

One thing I do not understand is how come when a gay man rapes a guy, people scream "OMG THIS IS WHY GAYS ARE EVILL!!!! GAAAAH *rageragerage*"

But yet when a straight man rapes a guy, or a girl, they are all like "UGH THAT MAN NEEDS TO DIE!!! or meh whatever happens alot, or She was asking for it >_>"

Can you see the double standard here?

If a gay man does somthing, its obviously because he's gay.
If a straight man does somthing, its because HES a bad person.

Isn't this kind of what they said about blacks? And jews? and the japaneese?

We dont allow people to drink until they are at least 18 to 21 because their judgement has not fully matured, how can we possibly allow the to change their sex until they can make a truely informed dicision?

I would like to suggest that it is impossible for this child to know its sexual identity until at least the onset up puberty, the very thing they are trying to prevent. What if this child suffers regret after gender reassignment? Its a common occurance and would be crime if this child because depressed or suicidal after.

Originally posted by nightbringr
We dont allow people to drink until they are at least 18 to 21 because their judgement has not fully matured, how can we possibly allow the to change their sex until they can make a truely informed dicision?

I would like to suggest that it is impossible for this child to know its sexual identity until at least the onset up puberty, the very thing they are trying to prevent. What if this child suffers regret after gender reassignment? Its a common occurance and would be crime if this child because depressed or suicidal after.

Don't kid yourself though, even if the kid was 17, we would still have this discussion, and we would still have people blaming the parents.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


Some call it giving him time to decide and others say give them time to complete their indoctrination . You are probably correct that if they were straight people might think differently.
The fact that the parents must deal with a societal issue regarding sexuality makes this a focus of their family dynamic. That becomes the dynamic of the group. Not trying to get all psychological or anything. But lets say you have parents who happen to believe in ghosts. Its not a daily subject with the family but its there now and again. Chances are the kids in that family will believe in ghosts. Its really simple. Think about the dynamics of your own family beliefs if you doubt me.
I am afraid that the child will not know if the decision is truly his own or what he thinks the parents want or if he's even aware at this time what this truly means.
This is a hard question. There is so much to consider. No surgery would be done before the age of consent anyway. Maybe a nice girl will change his mind when he is a teenager.
I know I probably sound ridged and old fashioned. I am not. ( check my views of the world if you care to ) This bothers me but then again the issue has always puzzled me because its not something I can easily relate to.

Originally posted by spw184

Originally posted by nightbringr
We dont allow people to drink until they are at least 18 to 21 because their judgement has not fully matured, how can we possibly allow the to change their sex until they can make a truely informed dicision?

I would like to suggest that it is impossible for this child to know its sexual identity until at least the onset up puberty, the very thing they are trying to prevent. What if this child suffers regret after gender reassignment? Its a common occurance and would be crime if this child because depressed or suicidal after.

Don't kid yourself though, even if the kid was 17, we would still have this discussion, and we would still have people blaming the parents.

The point is, it should be up to the child. And no, if the child was aware of his or her sexual identity and made an informed choice, i would not object. I think its rediculous for a child of 11 to make that decision yet. They have no idea if they are gay, straight or otherwise. Only 1 in 10 people identify as being gay or lesbian, so that sounds like a pretty big risk for a child who hasnt entered puberty yet to make. 1 in 10.

reply to post by freakjive


That should be considered child abuse... Only an ADULT should make a transgender decision. Not to mention, any doc involved is going to get his butt sued off....

You are probably correct that if they were straight people might think differently.

Nope, has nothing to do with it...has more to do with this kind of decision being one solely for an ADULT to make, not a teenager, not a pre-teen, and not a child. It would set a very problematic legal precedent also. Any child wishing any kind of elective surgery could cite this case as a precedent if this is permitted. It's a ridiculous decision for a child to make.

Once an adult, and Tommy wants to be Tammy...more power to him, I suppose, but while a child? No...that's too much.

I dont know if this has been mentioned (Im at work, dont have time to read all the pages), but what happens if 5 years from now the kid changes his mind? How many of us wanted different things between those ages? If they delay puberty, and the chemicals screw something up that doesnt allow everything to work properly and he decides to be male, what then?

Wow!!!

I've got a pretty strong stomach for almost anything. But this thread, and many of the opinions expressed in it, truly make me fear for the future of our species. RIP.

Originally posted by Gazrok

You are probably correct that if they were straight people might think differently.

Nope, has nothing to do with it...

Does it really?

Why dance around the obvious?

A boy, two lesbian mothers... Why should any possibility not be explored here.. Lesbians often have serious issues with males, and in particular the male anatomy... Could that alone be a motive here, in shaping the sexuality of their boy?

No one knows what has gone on in this home and in the life of that child... For all any of us knows, the boy may have no choice, and has been "molded" by his parents.

Do they want to change his sex, so that he will grow up to be a "lesbian"?

I hate to say this, but I don't believe homosexuals should be parents.

And I am sure, I will be hated for saying any of this.

Child abuse is what this is, no matter how you look at it.

Let the kid be a kid, and grow up to become whatever He/She wants to be.

Being a parent, doesn't make one God.

Originally posted by eMachine
When people are conflicted about their own gender, it means our society has messed-up gender stereotypes. A person may feel like they ought to be the opposite sex, because they don't fit the stereotypes assigned to the gender which they are.

The stereotypes are wrong, your genitalia (determined by your chromosomes) is not.

Yes I agree with you. In this case I feel that the stereotypes are being messed up at a more intimate level then societal. Maybe the parents should be evaluated to see what their views about men are. I am not saying that all gay women hate men. Women do however have views about men. Most formed in early childhood. Something, at the very least, made them reject men as sexual partners. Yeah yeah I know. And I was born a smoker.

Originally posted by freakjive

Please don't bash me for my personal opinion, but I honestly believe this is wrong on so many levels.

I feel like this child is being coerced into some alternative reality that no child should be forced to deal with.

It seems to me that this is all the parents will.

What say you?

This exact line of logic can be applied to Religion and the Indoctrination of children towards any particular belief not based on reality.

I am all about Equal rights for LBT individuals, but this child is too young to know what he wants. At the very least he should wait until he is old enough to truly understand. Although I can see the dilemma, if he waits and later decides to be a woman then the damage done to his body from puberty, etc, will be much greater than if it was prevented in the first place.

Originally posted by Gazrok
reply to post by freakjive

 

That should be considered child abuse... Only an ADULT should make a transgender decision. Not to mention, any doc involved is going to get his butt sued off....

You are probably correct that if they were straight people might think differently.

Nope, has nothing to do with it...has more to do with this kind of decision being one solely for an ADULT to make, not a teenager, not a pre-teen, and not a child. It would set a very problematic legal precedent also. Any child wishing any kind of elective surgery could cite this case as a precedent if this is permitted. It's a ridiculous decision for a child to make.

Once an adult, and Tommy wants to be Tammy...more power to him, I suppose, but while a child? No...that's too much.

edit on 18-10-2011 by Gazrok because: (no reason given)

Oh I agree with you 100 %. The issue I deal with is, why this is even a question at this age and the family dynamics play into that I think. The parents at the very least, do not want men in their beds. Who knows how far outside that room this feeling is projected to the family. I struggle with why this child has this issue in the first place. I really don't think his penis is a mistake.

I for one am very grateful I am not a child in this crazy world. When I was 6 I wanted to be a boy. I didnt really have a clear idea about what the difference was, just that from my perspective at that time, boy had more fun.
My grandma told me I could change if I kissed my elbow (lol, I nearly broke my arm trying).
I love being a woman. I can't imagine myself as a man. But with all this insane 'acceptance' today they might have let me ....*****shudder*******

Regarding sexual choices of this nature I look at the most basic signature I can find.

At the cellular level, when sperm meets egg, both have half of what ever will contribute to this individual. Part of that basic signature is the X or Y Chromosome. Everybody gets an X from dear old Dad because his signature is XX . Mom on the other hand since she is XY, can contribute either one. This is a chemical combination at the DNA level. Its not right or wrong.
Its just boy or girl. Simple chemistry.

Then you're born and you are taught what that chemical combination means to the rest of your life.

reply to post by Chett


Me too ! Well kinda. I too thought that being a boy would be more fun. I liked being outdoors and I loved all kinds of creatures like frogs and snakes. Now, I would not trade my mascara for anything. But I still love them creatures.

Originally posted by josh2009s
reply to post by freakjive

 

Sadly this is no different then parents "forcing" religion upon their children. This should not be acceptable at such a young age when a child's mind can be so easily persuaded and swayed. I'm not saying the parents forced him to believe this, but 1+1 does equal two.

Some middle eastern religions take this to an extreme but I was raised Baptists right here in the southern USA. I was taken to Sunday school and church on Sundays, Prayer Meetings and bible Study on Wednesday nights. This for 18 years of my life.

I choose to believe this at age 8 and was baptized because that was the extend of my exposure - it shaped what I choose to believe.

At around age 19 or 20 seeking Truth I discovered all is not right with the southern baptists. They didn't follow the Bible in their doctrine as well as they claimed they did. Many things in the Bible they ignored outright, many things they took out of context and propped up, many things were not really even in the Bible but made up or misinterpreted to promote the baptist agenda. I would ask my life long respected knowledgeable friends in the church; How come we don't do this or that is it's a direct commandment Jesus gave us in the Bible? Why do we believe things that clearly are not in the bible? - They didn't have any answers for me but were taught never to question.

As the rebel I questioned Everything and having studying the bible and differences in other Christian religion and much prayer and fasting, found a church more in keeping with what the Bible actually said and the people more correctly following Jesus's commandments. I denounced my baptist baptism because it was clearly unbiblical once you can see how they took it out of context, and was re-baptized another more biblical way.

But I was only able to make these choices as a rational thinking adult who could gather facts from study and investigation.

This kid is like I was at 8 years old - a product of my environment.

Do I believe my parents forced the baptist religion on me ? No. They tried to raise me up as well as they could to the best of their knowledge. This was done in an open fair honest way to expose me to something good and beneficial in my life, a relationship with our creator. As I said some middle eastern religions take this to an extreme but in general I don't see the forcing a child of 11 to take hormone pills to prevent natural growth as the same as rearing up a child in church.

so what happens when this kid sues the parents and doctor?

how quickly do you think doctors will stop doing the experiment? if theres one thing i know about the medical industry, its that everything revolves around insurance and protection from lawsuits.

all the kid has to do is tell the judge its parents allowed it to make a decision that has ruined any chance at living a normal/natural life. the question quickly becomes, who is legally bound to the decision? the parents or the minor? with abortion it is binding to the minor. but with abortion there is a clear and obvious understanding (in most cases) in part of the minor to what he or she did (have sex). the variable here is that the age of ability to understand and perform the sexual act(in most cases) is not the same as the legal age of accountability(usually 18). however this variable is non-existent with this issue, how therefore then can it be binding on the minor, if the minor can in no way show (at 11 years of age) that there is a clear understanding of the procedure and implications thereof?

they cannot. which is why parental consent is required. This would make it binding on the parents and leaves them and their accomplice (the doctor) wide open for lawsuites.

i can see the commercials now...(cue sad music, backdrop of concerned face) "Has your life been taken from you? call our law experts today)

Originally posted by spw184
Don't kid yourself though, even if the kid was 17, we would still have this discussion, and we would still have people blaming the parents.

You raise an interesting point and I believe you're 100% correct. I've had more than a full day to dwell on this topic and at this point, I do blame the parents.

11 is just too damn young to make this decision and I believe the influence (whether some agree or not) is there to help mold this mindset. I would still blame the parents if this child was 17. I guess I'm being close-minded or judgmental, but I can own that and that's the way it is.

Also, thanks for your input to the thread, SPW. I appreciate your insight.

FYI: As to when our brain actually finishes development.

Society of Neuroscience

Current findings, however, indicate that important brain regions undergo refinement through adolescence and at least into a person's twenties.

We now know that a human brain does not even fully develop until the end of adolescence (which ends somewhere between 17 and 22 years old, person depending).

Take this for what you will, but it cast some very serious doubts on 11 year olds making responsible, life altering decisions.

Simple question, how can they make a decision now when they have no idea what (or even how) they will think 3 years from now...or 5 years from now...or even possibly 10 years from now?

The easy response is that the child is just recieving a hormone blocker so that they can make a decision later...to that I then ask, how will the hormone blocker change the brain development when we know that testosterone and estrogen play crucial roles in brain development?

reply to post by freakjive


What's so wrong about it? People have been prescribed HRT for a long time now, in some cases it's the only way a person can survive.