OWS DOA or Simply Misdirected?

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

Originally posted by xuenchen

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

If you think there is a Communist conspiracy that's somehow locked in with unions, Anarchists, and Socialists, then you're either an uneducated moron or a disinformation/propaganda agent. Either way, you need to either educate yourself and come back to the adult discussion table or STFU immediately

If Occupy Wall Street threatens you... then you're probably not of a truly revolutionary/enlightened mind. And go ahead and tell me I'm being unfairly critical, but the truth is the truth and I'm not going to bite my tongue, I will tell you to your face that you're DEAD WRONG.

well,

if it's not any of the above,

please explain WHAT it really is all about then.

the rant is fine,

but some will not get your point.

How about, instead of believing the right-wing propaganda... you actually GO TO THEIR WEBSITES/PROTESTS AND FIGURE IT OUT FOR YOURSELF?

Since you felt like you had to pick a "wing" to oppose them, and you picked the "right wing" to throw spittle at, well, that tells us pretty much all we need to know of their ideology...

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

You've missed my point. My point is that, if you'd DO YOUR HOMEWORK and actually visit the websites, attend the protests, talk to people involved,

I did my homework as far as visiting the websites go, and visiting the protests themselves are impractical until perhaps the 18th or 19th, assuming they survive that long around here. The first try here locally failed miserably, but they're supposed to kick off another attempt a week from today.

you'd figure out fairly rapidly that all of the conspiracy theories generated, all of the right-wing propaganda, is wrong.

A. Again you pick a "wing" to oppose them. that tells me everything I need to know of their ideology, or perhaps more importantly, yours. I've heard rabid "left wingers" talking consummate trash about these protests, too. That would have led me to believe them to be truly bi-partisan, or perhaps "trans-partisan", yet ALL of the defenders seem to be picking the "right wingers" as the opposition to villify, and the left-wing opposition gets a pass.

You are known as much by who you choose as enemies as you are by who you choose as friends.

B. How is it "conspiracy theory" when they bring facts and traceable connections to the table? So far, all the supporters have been able to do is rant and spit, cover for a lack of hard fact, and point at (left wing - surprise!) websites that just do more of the same.

And until you research this, I don't feel like walking you through it step by step. Once you familiarize yourself with the movement, then we can have a debate (or god forbid, maybe an agreement) on its merits, tactics, and direction.

I HAVE done a good bit of research, and plan on doing more to try to falsify what I have already found. Assistance with facts would be a lot of help in that regard, but so far no one has been able to help me there, so I have to try on my own. Debate is a possibility, but I wouldn't look for any agreement unless and until you can provide counter-facts to try to falsify the already formulating premise, regarding merit.

As for tactics and direction, I REALLY wouldn't expect any agreement there, although I'm currently going over the stuff that Gene Sharp wrote to try to find some sort of accommodation somewhere. So far, nothing. Just a "movement" that will move nowhere, and is doomed to failure. There are reasons, both cultural and political, those tactics have been used to victory overseas, and yet have never been successfully prosecuted here.

This is for the "Wicker man" variety of hippy among us - you know, the ones who wanna burn it all down, but not get too rowdy or violent in the burning:




Didn't want 'em to feel left out!

"Everybody here is
outta sight

They don't bark
and they don't bite"

"We like our fun
and we never fight

You can't dance
and stay uptight"

If I hear one more person parrot "they don't have a clue why they are here", I think I'll scream!!!

That little sentence caught on as a catch phrase and it seems to be something to toss around when other folks "don't have a clue" about why they are there. If you don't know, you make the assumption that nobody else does either, which is a mistake.

For weeks we went on about the how the MSM wasn't covering it. None of the protesters were interviewed during that period. We were given very sketchy information about it. Don't mistake that for anything other than control. They absolutely DO know why they are there and it's presumptuous and self aggrandizing as hell to assert otherwise.

Of course there are people there who aren't sure what's going on. Of course. And there's a little group of kids there who decided to dress up like zombies, so what? Maybe they wanted to make a point. Should they have dressed up like "sheep"? That would have also made a point; both to my amusement.

STOP the lobbyists from buying the government. End Corporate crimes and greed.

What could be a clearer message than that?

...........Now if you'll excuse me, I think I'll go dancing in the moonlight.

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


BRAWK! "They don't......" Never mind, I can't hear you scream through the interwebs and if you did, it probably would just startle those around you.

I go to the OWS where I'm at here in Ohio and on a individual level, the people know why they are there, for their own individual reasons.

I have my own views, but try to remain nuetral as I question the people and I want their honest answer. Some have been ironically humorous, most have been quite earnest.

They are getting working groups together to try to put together a cohesive message. Those get heated and it can be amusing to watch as people get fed up and leave and new ones join. I don't see them getting anything done in the immediate future, but they working the issue.

And I believe that you are absolutely correct about stopping the corporate lobbyists from buying the government.

You’ll notice I say Corporate lobbyists. There are some lobby groups that do good for the common person, veterans, disabled, etc. But they are usually nonprofit groups that depend upon donations rather than other nefarious means of funding.

I like the sheep costume idea, that would be amusing. Maybe toss in one wolf costume with the guy tied up and surrounded by the sheep as well?

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


I think they all, or most, know why THEY are there, but their individual reasons seem to be all over the map. Lack of cohesion in motivation. I also think they're shooting into an empty barn.

Wrong target for positive results.

I went dancing in the moonlight last night - too tuckered to shuffle now. maybe next time.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

Originally posted by xuenchen

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

If you think there is a Communist conspiracy that's somehow locked in with unions, Anarchists, and Socialists, then you're either an uneducated moron or a disinformation/propaganda agent. Either way, you need to either educate yourself and come back to the adult discussion table or STFU immediately

If Occupy Wall Street threatens you... then you're probably not of a truly revolutionary/enlightened mind. And go ahead and tell me I'm being unfairly critical, but the truth is the truth and I'm not going to bite my tongue, I will tell you to your face that you're DEAD WRONG.

well,

if it's not any of the above,

please explain WHAT it really is all about then.

the rant is fine,

but some will not get your point.

How about, instead of believing the right-wing propaganda... you actually GO TO THEIR WEBSITES/PROTESTS AND FIGURE IT OUT FOR YOURSELF?

Since you felt like you had to pick a "wing" to oppose them, and you picked the "right wing" to throw spittle at, well, that tells us pretty much all we need to know of their ideology...

WRONG. My point is that the right-wing OBVIOUSLY is spewing the most propaganda (and the most inaccurate sort as well) about OWS. And since I know that YOU lean towards that sort of propaganda, I was addressing this to you.

If you seriously write an entire movement off because I hate right-wing propaganda about it... then you're absolutely silly and have no place commenting on any of it.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

You've missed my point. My point is that, if you'd DO YOUR HOMEWORK and actually visit the websites, attend the protests, talk to people involved,

I did my homework as far as visiting the websites go, and visiting the protests themselves are impractical until perhaps the 18th or 19th, assuming they survive that long around here. The first try here locally failed miserably, but they're supposed to kick off another attempt a week from today.

So why do you spread lies about OWS when you've visited their websites...? Makes no sense to me if you actually understood the whole thing. Without calling you a paid-off propagandist... I will speculate that maybe some part of you sees truth in OWS but has a damn hard time admitting it or changing your heart/mind about "hippies" and "commies" (most of whom are NEITHER).

you'd figure out fairly rapidly that all of the conspiracy theories generated, all of the right-wing propaganda, is wrong.

A. Again you pick a "wing" to oppose them. that tells me everything I need to know of their ideology, or perhaps more importantly, yours. I've heard rabid "left wingers" talking consummate trash about these protests, too. That would have led me to believe them to be truly bi-partisan, or perhaps "trans-partisan", yet ALL of the defenders seem to be picking the "right wingers" as the opposition to villify, and the left-wing opposition gets a pass.

You are known as much by who you choose as enemies as you are by who you choose as friends.

B. How is it "conspiracy theory" when they bring facts and traceable connections to the table? So far, all the supporters have been able to do is rant and spit, cover for a lack of hard fact, and point at (left wing - surprise!) websites that just do more of the same.

A. Once again, I pick a "wing" because, for those not ignoring reality, the right-wing is the MOST active in slandering/propagandizing about OWS. Simple as that. And since your leanings tend to sympathize with such right-wing propaganda, I directed it specifically towards YOU. I have also heard left-wingers talking trash about OWS and I've had arguments with THEM TOO!! Go figure!! Though I didn't accuse them of believing the right-wing propaganda... know why? BECAUSE THEY AT LEAST REALIZE IT'S GARBAGE. However, they have other concerns, mostly out of pessimism and premature judgement. There are debates going on on ALL sides of political leaning about this movement... but NATURALLY you're going to see more resistance from (and against) the right-wing because this movement (however diverse/righteous/educated) is more left-wing than right-wing in nature (and rightfully so). That's not to say people from all stripes aren't supportive and/or participating, because they absolutely are. But what I honestly think needs to happen is a lot of anti-establishment right-wingers need to change their minds about the anti-establishment left's solutions... because, believe me, we've been doing it longer and with far more insight into the entire system (and alternatives/solutions). It's time to let go of Capitalism... because the left, TRULY, has let go of Communism a lonnnng time ago.

B. It's a conspiracy theory when they take small facts, exaggerate them, and then draw wild/insane conclusions to discredit something that goes far beyond the charges. It's called PROPAGANDA, mixing lies in with truths and tweaking the narrative away from reality and towards a desired mindset. That desired mindset is to trick people into thinking George Soros is a puppet-master of the movement and that the Democratic party has taken control and that it's doomed to failure... it's a baseless tit-for-tat.

...

And until you research this, I don't feel like walking you through it step by step. Once you familiarize yourself with the movement, then we can have a debate (or god forbid, maybe an agreement) on its merits, tactics, and direction.

I HAVE done a good bit of research, and plan on doing more to try to falsify what I have already found. Assistance with facts would be a lot of help in that regard, but so far no one has been able to help me there, so I have to try on my own. Debate is a possibility, but I wouldn't look for any agreement unless and until you can provide counter-facts to try to falsify the already formulating premise, regarding merit.

As for tactics and direction, I REALLY wouldn't expect any agreement there, although I'm currently going over the stuff that Gene Sharp wrote to try to find some sort of accommodation somewhere. So far, nothing. Just a "movement" that will move nowhere, and is doomed to failure. There are reasons, both cultural and political, those tactics have been used to victory overseas, and yet have never been successfully prosecuted here.

If you need facts, then ask me what you want to know, I'd be glad to share what I know and/or find it out for you.

I'm glad you're reading about Sharp... while I'm, admittedly, not very familiar with his works, it seems he's been quite a blessing to resistance movements all over the world in using tactical non-violence to fight tyrannies of Communism, Fascism, Capitalism, and all stripes of totalitarianism/oppression.

HOW are you so sure that OWS is "doomed" to failure??? Do you SEE what's going on?? This movement can ONLY GROW and I honestly doubt it will be co-opted, the people involved are truly too aware/intelligent. If ANYTHING, this movement will infiltrate the ESTABLISHMENT and force it to comply with the needs/freedoms of the people. If anything, the establishment should be afraid of the movement co-opting THEM... which should be (and more/less is) one of the main goals of the occupation. To list our grievances and not give up until they are more than answered/catered to. Where other movements over here have failed... or rather... not garnered the kind of results desired, this movement can actually succeed. From where I'm sitting... I've NEVER EVER seen such a uniting of the various revolutionary/activist/populist/underground/overground/anti-establishment/pro-freedom/civil libertarian/human rights/workers rights/etc.etc. groups and figures into ONE unified movement. It encompasses the concerns/desires of the 99% BECAUSE it allows people to speak out for themselves freely/Democratically! This will be impossible to stop, and I am fairly confident that at least SOME good with be achieved out of all of it. Keep in mind... you CANNOT write this movement off before it has even matured; it is still a baby compared to what it can and will likely become. Don't judge a child for his future abilities as an adult.

I haven't read the replies yet, OP, but I have to say, KUDOS, to the best OWS related post I've seen so far. Very true statements and I commend you. I agree with every word.

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

WRONG. My point is that the right-wing OBVIOUSLY is spewing the most propaganda (and the most inaccurate sort as well) about OWS. And since I know that YOU lean towards that sort of propaganda, I was addressing this to you.

If you seriously write an entire movement off because I hate right-wing propaganda about it... then you're absolutely silly and have no place commenting on any of it.

That's not why I write them off, I write them off for other reasons I have already detailed.

I can't help who you hate. that ain't my problem, nor does it enter my decision making process. It only served to show your own polarization, and the polarization YOU see the OWS protests as having.

I'll comment on what I damn well please to, when I damn well please to do so.

Originally posted by NoHierarchy


So why do you spread lies about OWS when you've visited their websites...? Makes no sense to me if you actually understood the whole thing. Without calling you a paid-off propagandist... I will speculate that maybe some part of you sees truth in OWS but has a damn hard time admitting it or changing your heart/mind about "hippies" and "commies" (most of whom are NEITHER).

I've not spread any lies about them. As evidence of that, I offer the fact that you have been singularly unable to point out a single lie I've told.

I have also heard left-wingers talking trash about OWS and I've had arguments with THEM TOO!!

How 'bout that! Yet you STILL continue to hammer on the "right wing" and give the left wing dissidents a pass. Very telling indeed.

NATURALLY you're going to see more resistance from (and against) the right-wing because this movement (however diverse/righteous/educated) is more left-wing than right-wing in nature (and rightfully so).

Out of the mouths of babes...

That's not to say people from all stripes aren't supportive and/or participating, because they absolutely are. But what I honestly think needs to happen is a lot of anti-establishment right-wingers need to change their minds about the anti-establishment left's solutions... because, believe me, we've been doing it longer and with far more insight into the entire system (and alternatives/solutions). It's time to let go of Capitalism... because the left, TRULY, has let go of Communism a lonnnng time ago.

The anti-establishment "left" has "solutions"?

Everything will be OK if everyone just comes around to your way of thinking, right? Why should we even bother thinking for ourselves then? we can just put you in the drivers seat, and go back to sleep, eh?

B. It's a conspiracy theory when they take small facts, exaggerate them, and then draw wild/insane conclusions to discredit something that goes far beyond the charges.

...

That "goes far beyond the charges" part is EXACTLY the part to be watching! Kudos for pointing that out!

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

If you need facts, then ask me what you want to know, I'd be glad to share what I know and/or find it out for you.

The important facts as bears on this conversation are the ones you want me to know. Until I have them, I wouldn't even know what questions to ask, would I?

I'm glad you're reading about Sharp... while I'm, admittedly, not very familiar with his works, it seems he's been quite a blessing to resistance movements all over the world in using tactical non-violence to fight tyrannies of Communism, Fascism, Capitalism, and all stripes of totalitarianism/oppression.

Here is a link where you can go to get some of his works as PDFs to download and read.

HOW are you so sure that OWS is "doomed" to failure???

Because of the people. There are cultural and political differences in the areas where these tactics have been successful and America, where they largely have not. The day may come when they WILL work here, but that day is not yet here.

Do you SEE what's going on??

Only what is reported on the internet. I don't have TV, and have not gone to a local demonstration yet because none have yet got off the ground. There is to be another attempt next Saturday, but it will be Tuesday at the earliest before I can get there.

This movement can ONLY GROW

Nothing can ONLY grow. Anything can flop. Time will tell which happens here.

and I honestly doubt it will be co-opted, the people involved are truly too aware/intelligent.

To be honest, I don't personally think it's a matter of "will be" co-opted, I think it's more a matter of when the puppet masters decide to raise their heads in public, and that it is ALREADY under their control. That opinion is subject to change upon presentation of refuting evidence to the contrary.

Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by sensibleSenseless

 

I would love to have a beer and BBQ with you!

I have been a leader of Soldiers and have been on the other side of the Iron Curtin in the 80's. I was followed everywhere and we had to dress in our Class A's so they could easily ID us.

Lotsa fun...not. East Germany was a dreary place. Didn't much like being watched everywhere we went either. Also had to stay in a group at all times. Quite the learning experiance at the time for a young Soldier.

But I would like to discuss the various techniques that you used to get people to do what you needed them to do.

As a NCO, I always reminded my guys that they were not mindless drones and I required them to think on their feet. On the other side, they were always expected to follow legal orders.

If they broke either rule, the consequenses were dire for that individual.

It was a tightrope that made them better in my opinion. It made them think.

Sounds cool, Beers good and so is a bbq,

Actually, a lot of the volunteer organizations I've helped out had already been in existence prior to my arrival.

I usually go to pitch in, but often find that I can contribute significantly to how the show runs by helping put a plan on the table. Often times, volunteers are already motivated to do the right thing, they just need a little help figuring out how to get to where they are trying to go.

As for OWS:
I don't really know all that much about it. It seems like the organizers are trying to get the general populace out to try and vet a message and possibly a solution?

That takes leadership that is extra-ordinarily competent. There are so many people who are of different backgrounds and persuasions - how do you otherwise get them to agree to a single strategy that is anything but simplistic? Without an education campaign by someone who is extra-ordinarily knowledgeable, and capable of delivering a message both understandable and convincing, it is quite the daunting task. The particular individual/individuals would have to be committed to delivery - that is a lot of spare time on someone's hands!

It's a perfect opportunity, though, for some heretofore unknown individual/(s) who potentially wanted to challenge the current leadership for power, and break in real fast.

Originally posted by queenofsheba
reply to post by sensibleSenseless

 

So, for these reasons, I am neither in favour of capitalism, socialism, communism or any of the other large scale isms. Not that I don't believe in organization and their abilities to do things right in the world - I do. However, if you have a choice, my advice would be to choose as many people as possible who are good to work and live with.

I choose me and independence and freedom and the Constitution of America and you know what? That works real well for me. Don't need your advice to "choose as many people as possible who are good to work and live with" cuz well, I don't need 'em. I like my independent life living it without all those many people. I can say with certainty that I am in favor of Capitalism over Socialism, Communism and not afraid to state that. What's better? To me, it's the best here right now out of the rest of the world.
...


I think that is the issue that is at hand. Everyone might apparently be stuck on their own, with no job, and nowhere to go.

That being said, I'm sure a lot of people still believe that the system is going to recover. Personally, I'm not so sure of that. While there might be some reprieve with the temporary solutions that get implemented, I'm not so sure it's going to recover.

*facepalm*

Hey ya'll, I finally broke down and got cable so I can "educate" myself as everyone thinks I need to by watching these alleged "protests" real time on the MSM. Where is the best place to tune? I hear a lot of folks jabbering about Fox News, so I'm guessing that must be the place to be to watch. Amirite? Since that is the name on everyone's lips, I'm thinking that's the one they all must watch - else they wouldn't know anything about it to talk about, right?

Originally posted by nenothtu
Hey ya'll, I finally broke down and got cable so I can "educate" myself as everyone thinks I need to by watching these alleged "protests" real time on the MSM. Where is the best place to tune? I hear a lot of folks jabbering about Fox News, so I'm guessing that must be the place to be to watch. Amirite? Since that is the name on everyone's lips, I'm thinking that's the one they all must watch - else they wouldn't know anything about it to talk about, right?

I hope you're kidding.

Watch them here:
www.livestream.com...

reply to post by NoHierarchy


Sorry. that page didn't work here. I got a blank page with a few words, and an error warning that the page was attempting to run 34 scripts on this computer, which were blocked.

This TV thing is kinda fun, though. there really isn't much news, and what there is is excessively boring, but the SciFi channel and the History Channel look like they might kick ass!

There's even one channel that is nothing but a camera on a satellite in a geostationary orbit over Texas, it looks like, which shows the Earth in real time. It's a lot like trying to watch grass grow or paint dry, but you can flip to it every now and then and see where the sun is rising or setting. It's hard to imagine that someone paid actual money to put that camera up there.

reply to post by woodwardjnr

Footballers are also quite a good example at how capitalism has gone out of control. A premiership player makes more in one week than a nurse could make in 4 years . Now tell me who provides the more valued service.

Why is that an example of "capitalism gone out of control?" Supply and demand easily shows the reason for the difference. Millions of healthy and unhealthy people alike will pay to see 30 or so footballers play many games every year, and not many people have the athletic or genetic ability to become a top level footballer. Nurses are much more common, as the number of people who can and do become nurses is a great deal larger than the number of people who can and do become top level footballers. And nurses are only needed by extremely unhealthy people for short periods of time, etc. etc., and most people prefer to keep out of hospitals and thus under the care of nurses as much as possible, despite how much they may need that care.

Add in socialized medicine and the resulting attempts by government agencies to "control" health care prices. Figure the rest out for yourself. And study some basic economics. In fact there is an excellent book, titled "Basic Economics," that you should look up. Check edition 4.