OWS DOA or Simply Misdirected?

reply to post by queenofsheba


And that isn't how it works. That isn't what anyone is asking for. Please go look up Mortgage Fraud, please go look up MF Global. It's great that you did all these things that doesn't mean the system isn't corrupt. That doesn't mean that there aren't millions of people paying more on their mortgages than their homes are worth or that millions of homes weren't foreclosed on illegally. It doesn't mean that peoples savings and retirements didn't dissapear into thin air. It doesn't mean that while you and I pay our fair share in taxes that corporations with multi billion dollar profits didn't get multi million dollar tax rebates. It doesn't mean that those same corporations took the jobs that used to support middle america and ship them overseas to be done through slave wages, unsafe working environments and no benefits, because waaaaaaah the cost of doing business in america is too high. Talk about entitlement issues.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by queenofsheba

 

And that isn't how it works. That isn't what anyone is asking for. Please go look up Mortgage Fraud, please go look up MF Global. It's great that you did all these things that doesn't mean the system isn't corrupt. That doesn't mean that there aren't millions of people paying more on their mortgages than their homes are worth or that millions of homes weren't foreclosed on illegally. It doesn't mean that peoples savings and retirements didn't dissapear into thin air. It doesn't mean that while you and I pay our fair share in taxes that corporations with multi billion dollar profits didn't get multi million dollar tax rebates. It doesn't mean that those same corporations took the jobs that used to support middle america and ship them overseas to be done through slave wages, unsafe working environments and no benefits, because waaaaaaah the cost of doing business in america is too high. Talk about entitlement issues.

People are paying more on their mortgages because they refinanced, and many did an ARM. They still agreed and signed their name to pay back what they agreed to. It's pretty clear in black and white. People who invest in the stock market know that it's a gamble, yeah it really it is. No where does it say you're guanteed x amount of money. I know that, too. I think personal responsibility has to account for something and no, I'm not one to go, "waaaaaah" when I forfeit on my end of the bargain.

You know what? We all know its not easy out there. Whether you're half-way through your career and get axed or just starting out and can't even get your dream job. There are still jobs to be had, no they may not be your dream job, but they are there and if that means doing what you have to do, then you do it. You don't go sit and feel sorry for yourself or decide to go sit in a park with signs because let me tell ya, signs aren't gonna do it. If people want a revolution, then its gonna take violence and bloodshed and I'm pretty sure, the 99 percent don't have it in them to cross that line, to take it to the limit. Do you?

reply to post by queenofsheba


If it came to it, I absolutely will physically revolt...I think most people would including Occupiers. As of yet it doesn't need to be a violent revolution, I'd rather take the longer road through peace and not shed blood or lives. The Occupiers have that level of endurance. Do you?

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by queenofsheba

 

If it came to it, I absolutely will physically revolt...I think most people would including Occupiers. As of yet it doesn't need to be a violent revolution, I'd rather take the longer road through peace and not shed blood or lives. The Occupiers have that level of endurance. Do you?

Oh, yeah and then some. No doubt about that. I'm saying, the road to revolution is not peace and in the past historically speaking, has consisted of bloodshed.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by GringoViejo

 

Not really but if it makes you happy to think so...

So, what you're saying is, that thanks to the OWS protesters, the rest of the world now knows that the USA is corrupt, or is home to a large percentage of corrupt people/corporations?

reply to post by SLAYER69


To start with...

You say:

I support the majority of what the movement is trying to achieve in Principle. I really do. I however refuse to call those who are advocating Communism, Union involvement and violently overthrowing the Government with the shredding of the Constitution [simply because a small vocal minority within the movement feels they are entitled to getting a bigger slice of the pie which most of whom haven't gotten off their collective asses and earned] my Comrades!

The movement does not advocate Communism or any political stance. Most communists are idealogical communists but realise that communism doesn't work so well in government. Members of communists groups show up, not much can really be done about that. Their concerns are the same as most americans, because they are communists should they not have a voice? Communism is not illegal in the US. And, how do you go about telling them to go away? How do you say, I can protest here but you can't?

Unions, personally I don't have a problem with them, in many ways they are a good thing. I support imposing the same donation limits on Unions as Corporations. I think many in the movement do as well, but it so far isn't a major topic of discussion.

Violently overthrowing the government. I flat out reject that statement, and I think the evidence shows in the beatings and chemical weapons taken with no riots ensuing shows that I am correct.

A bigger slice of the pie, yes! Absolutely yes! But not in the sense you seem to be taking it. Not in the gimme gimme sense. I don't recall the exact numbers and I'm too tired to look them up at the moment. In the US and honestly the world, the richest 1% of the population controls 42% of the wealth. Really think about what that means. With our current governance that means that they can buy laws that make them richer and then on top of that, they are irresponsible with that wealth, they do everything that they scorn us for. They borrow and lend and trade with and against money that they do not have and when it started to collapse they stole clients money, oh they always put it back up until recently because there is nothing else left for them to take from to put it back with. So they asked for bailouts and got them and continued to pay their top executives million dollar bonuses, with our tax dollars. And we're the ones with entitlement issues?

We have corporations that have US profits in the multi-billions receiving multi-million dollar tax rebates and then they still complain that taxes are too high and thatthe cost of doing business in the US is too high. That is a blatant excuse to "give" those jobs to people they can exploit by avoiding fair pay and safe work environments, and you bet your ass that I lived in a 3rd world country and was offered 2 dollars a day I would take it over complete starvation (how kind of them to feed the poor). They save millions if not billions. They blame regulations make it too hard yet most regulations work in their favor and not ours.

A nation has been built under our noses in which we cannot work outside of the system and now that system in which we can't work outside of is collapsing, no it hasn't affected EVERYONE and won't probably for some time to come, but it will happen. So, yes...give me a bigger slice of the pie, the pie that allows me to find a decent job and not be a slave to debt and poverty.

Originally posted by Kali74

The movement does not advocate Communism or any political stance. Most communists are idealogical communists but realise that communism doesn't work so well in government. Members of communists groups show up, not much can really be done about that. Their concerns are the same as most americans, because they are communists should they not have a voice? Communism is not illegal in the US. And, how do you go about telling them to go away? How do you say, I can protest here but you can't?

It sends a mixed message that raises concerns and makes the whole group look bad. This is the problem when there is an "Anything" goes because of no clear cut agenda.

Originally posted by Kali74

We have corporations that have US profits in the multi-billions receiving multi-million dollar tax rebates and then they still complain that taxes are too high and thatthe cost of doing business in the US is too high. That is a blatant excuse to "give" those jobs to people they can exploit by avoiding fair pay and safe work environments, and you bet your ass that I lived in a 3rd world country and was offered 2 dollars a day I would take it over complete starvation (how kind of them to feed the poor). They save millions if not billions. They blame regulations make it too hard yet most regulations work in their favor and not ours.

I have no issues with this part of your post. Other than to say the US and West have effectively Exported our pollution [From manufacturing and production] to China in exchange for Cheap retail products. They get pollution and money, We get cheap products and unemployment.

A nation has been built under our noses in which we cannot work outside of the system and now that system in which we can't work outside of is collapsing, no it hasn't affected EVERYONE and won't probably for some time to come, but it will happen. So, yes...give me a bigger slice of the pie, the pie that allows me to find a decent job and not be a slave to debt and poverty.

Who is going to provide that good paying job? Joe Shmoe the guy on skidrow? The Government? No, Corporations will. But how are they going to if you don't support them.

It's an ugly catch 22.


Try this. Stop buying foreign made crap. Support American companies still doing business here in the US. There is nothing politically incorrect about supporting your own country's economy and buying American!

That's a good start.

reply to post by SLAYER69


So let them go and we build new ones or at least stop bailing them out and stop giving them insane tax rebates. If they want to profit off americans but then not support us (with jobs and not stealing our tax money)in return then GTFO. Get out, stay out! If our government hadn't sold out to the highest bidder these companies either would have failed or moved, imagine whole new companies run by whole new people.

Also there are plenty of people on ATS who don't support the movement because it ISN'T violent.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

So let them go and we build new ones or at least stop bailing them out and stop giving them insane tax rebates. If they want to profit off americans but then not support us (with jobs and not stealing our tax money)in return then GTFO. Get out, stay out! If our government hadn't sold out to the highest bidder these companies either would have failed or moved, imagine whole new companies run by whole new people.

Also there are plenty of people on ATS who don't support the movement because it ISN'T violent

I appreciate the sentiment.
I honestly cant see how this and what I've written are in conflict other than you sharing with the rest of us your frustration. But GTFO doesnt put food on the table nor give you a paycheck.

but okidokie.

reply to post by SLAYER69


What's your solution?

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

What's your solution?

Sorry.

OWS called the ball on this one.

They've had two months to get the message out.

What's their solution?

Because honestly like your post all I hear are all the gripes and complaints. But no real solutions unless GTFO is a solution.

I dunno.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

What's your solution?

Sorry.

OWS called the ball on this one.

They've had two months to get the message out.

What's their solution?

Because honestly like your post all I hear are all the gripes and complaints. But no real solutions unless GTFO is a solution.

I dunno.

A good start would be 2 million marching in the streets of DC. You would be surprised how MANY would show up for that.

For those who say it cant be done,just look at the Tea Party.

Proper demands would be another thing,ones that can be met,and ones that ALL of America will get behind on.
Bailouts didn't work for banks or Businesses.They wont work for the average Joe .



This country needs morals and principles brought back to the forefront.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Make them change the laws. Make them represent us like they're supposed to.
You want to discuss this but won't answer my questions??

reply to post by sonnny1


It took the Tea Party how long to gain that kind of support? Occupy has been around for 2 months. It takes time.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

Make them change the laws. Make them represent us like they're supposed to.
You want to discuss this but won't answer my questions??

I gave some solutions. Did you acknowledge them?

Changing laws is a good start. Also Booting out some of the scum legally. Start at your local level. City, county and state levels.

Then work through the system on a fair tax stricture.

reply to post by SLAYER69


I don't follow your posts sorry so no I haven't seen your solutions, but thank-you for giving a couple in your reply. Ideally local on up is how it's supposed to work, but it hasn't. I can't nor can anyone say that occupiers/supporters have tried, I know I have and generally activists do these things such as writing to your councilors reps etc..attending town meetings and so on. It's not working because our government no longer works for us. This is going to take a fight to fix and I don't mean a violent one. I mean one where the people literally have to get in the face of politics and make sure we're heard. That is the whole purpose of the 1st Amendment.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by sonnny1

 

It took the Tea Party how long to gain that kind of support? Occupy has been around for 2 months. It takes time.

Actually it took them no time to garner that support,nor did they need to camp out,engage police,or cost taxpayers money,in the name of freedom,and protesting.

The message was clear also,and showed at the voting booths.

OWS is misdirected with the "with us against us" attitude,and at the same time,claiming to represent the 99%.

You cant have it both ways.

People gathered from ALL over the US to march on DC,because of coordinated effort,not a mixed signal based one.

Occupying an Israeli consulate,to heckling Ron Paul,or even the President will not change the problems in America. What will is voting. What will work is a common cause,and goals,not aimless rhetoric,or "eat the rich" slogans.

reply to post by sonnny1


People have said on this forum that the Tea Party actually started in 2007 and gained quick support immediately after Obama was elected but didn't gain the numbers we saw in 2010 until 2010. I know I hadn't heard about the Tea Party until 2010. Either way the most action we saw from them was 2010 correct? That's 3 years of building. Two months is infancy for a movement it's barely past birth.

The movement has not engaged the police, it has been illegally engaged by the police. The resources used to contain and evict is disproportionate to any "threat". There has been no threat.

The message is clear, it's just long.

reply to post by SLAYER69

It sends a mixed message that raises concerns and makes the whole group look bad. This is the problem when there is an "Anything" goes because of no clear cut agenda.