Lisa Irwin - Missing - One Year Later

reply to post by Xcathdra


Thank you very much for the explanation. Since I have done a police ride along I understand why, I just hadn't heard about the larceny complaint at the address.

Interesting note about the type 1. I'm a new type 1, just diagnosed last year. Thankfully I have not had any extreme lows outside of the hospital.

OiO

Here's a little "true story" from a fb poster who is also a local.
She says she worked in the area with DFS (child protection services)

EDIT TO MAKE VERY CLEAR: THIS IS NOT ME, and I DO NOT KNOW THIS PERSON

Tarie Godsey

True story of a mom's love, I wanted to share this here. Years ago, I worked for the state as a social worker. A young mother was 14 and worked 2 jobs to care for her 11 month old. One ice cold and snowy night, the mom chained her baby's leg to the bed and ran down the block to get a carton of milk. The neighbor had seen the mom leave the apartment and heard the baby cry and called 911.

To Cut to the chase, the baby was placed in foster care with an older couple who had kids in college. The 14 year old mom turned 15, then 16 and did everything to get her baby back, she obtained her HS diploma, worked 2 jobs without ANY family support (the baby was the product of rape) completed parenting classes, enrolled in collge, all by herself. The foster parents bonded with the birth mom and the toddler.

When it was time for the baby to go back to her mother, she asked me to request the foster parents adopt her child as they could provide for her. I was shocked. The foster parents were stunned and agreed to adopt the toddler AND took in the baby's mom as their own. The baby's mom is now a registered nurse and visits her child as often as possible.

That is true love. I wanted to share that on this page that is filled with despair and sadness. There are happy endings to some stories.

I know there's not much info that's new...but I thought adding in some other locals' points of view (aside from mine) might broaden our perspectives here a bit. I've no idea if any of the people on the fb page are also on ATS, but these are what is getting posted by those claiming to be locals.

reply to post by vogon42


I see your a LEO as well. If you dont mind please feel free to jump in and add / correct / clarify info I post. Its always nice to have a second set of eyes and mindset to look at info in both directions.

Originally posted by schmae
Maybe he saw the cell phones missing first ? Called 911 and THEN realized the baby was missing?

I was thinking about this and am curious.

Why would he go across the street to see if Lisa was there? Has something occurred in the past where a similar event occurred and thats where Lisa was? It would be one thing if he went to all of his neighbors asking them, but only going to one neighbor and no others?

That action suggests the possibility of a previous incident, How many people would, after finding their child missing, only check one neighbor? I would be going door to door waking up as many people as possible.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Hey X, I pondered that maybe in the past when Deb got knockout drunk, Samantha may have taken her home. You know, you just go on to bed Deb, I'll watch her and let her spend the night. OR I've been thinking quite a bit that Samantha may have been having an affair with Phil Netz, Deb's brother. Maybe while looking through the house Jeremy said "wheres phillip' and deb said he was at Sams and he went there just hoping maybe they carried her over with them.

For those who like doing their own sleuthing.

KCPD - Home Page
KCPD Crime Map Plotting

The first link is the KCPD homepage. The second link is a crime map overview. It will show you the types of crimes / calls reported in the area. The Erwin residence is on the North Side of Kansas City, so they fall into the North KC Patrol zone. Do not confuse the North KCPD beat with the city of North Kansas City.

You can enter date ranges as well as select the types of calls you are looking for (arsons / property crimes / assaults etc). I selected the 3600 block north of Lister Ave so when the link above loads it should drop you in that area. Chances are the map might look blank, so if this happens just look at the tab for crimes and go from there.

This is a public access map so not everything will be listed nor will there be specific call information.

Whose who in the case


For those discussing the murder of the mother -
State of Deleware Public Court Records Search

reply to post by Xcathdra


Hey thanks for the Delaware case database!
I just looked for Lisa Netz, David Netz, and Johnny Chi.....(probably spelled his name wrong)...
nothing on ANY of them.

EDIT TO ADD:
Oops, yes there IS!! use the first choice menu...I did the judgment one first....nothing. Then I checked the name one...and there are David and Lisa both.....stuff from creditors mostly -- cases closed due to service of papers failing...."moved left no address" type stuff...

nothing on Johnny using the spelling of his fb handle...

BUT ....but!! Under Chivalette (the name he on fb has used to refer to the family of Deborah's mom) there are a few entries -- bad debt and taxes unpaid....

nothing else.
1 for Louise and John as co-defendants
1 for Louise Ann
1 for Vincent.

John's /Louise's is the oldest from 1991. The others for Louise and Vincent are within the last 6 years.



EDIT AGAIN TO ADD: Odd, that....why does "uncle Johnny" not spell his name in the fb the same as he does his family members?? Chivalette is on the public records....not Chiaravallotti

Here's an old bit out of the Wichita Eagle regarding David Netz:

"Most of my family says, 'Trust nobody.' But it's making things get even worse, I think," Netz says. So he, and a couple other members of the extended family, are speaking out, helping the Kansas City Star pull together some of the threads of Deborah Lee Netz Bradley's life of 25 years.

Netz, 48, acknowledges the troubles in the family tree. Alcoholism. Estrangement. Divorce. Untimely death.

Debbie's mother left him more than once. His daughter moved out of his house the first time as an angry 16-year-old. Still, he says, the two stayed connected, with visits at least once a week.

..."If they knew how Debbie prayed and prayed for a baby girl ever since her mother died because she wanted to name her Lisa," he says. "Then they would know there is no way she could do anything to the baby, or God forbid, if something horrible happened, she wouldn't be able to keep that secret.

"Debbie tells everything."

Read more: www.kansas.com...

She tells everything. According to her dad. So, best not to speak to the investigators.

I would really, really like to think that Deborah is a good-hearted survivor of a senseless and bizarre crime against her daughter. It just isn't adding up to being able to do that, unfortunately. In my opinion.

reply to post by wildtimes


Keep in mind court records are added to the court search function when charges are filed and the case moves forward. Anything still under active investigation by the police wont be listed until they submit the reports and the PA makes a decision.

As far as a name spelling there are a couple possibilities. He could have changed his name, the person entering the data into the system could have spelled it wrong as well (which is usually the case from what I've seen).

I saw a few news reports about the families past, as well as discussion in this thread, so I figured people might want to look around some. I did see an article about a similar incident occurring when she lived near a military base.

Another resource for the sleuths -
MO DPS - Sex offender registration and location

The above is for the Missouri Department of Public Safety website for sex offender location. Clarification for some - Each county in Missouri is responsible for maintaining the records for their county. The DPS website is the entire state at a glance.

Missouri Laws that deal with sex offenders is problematic because the way the law is written. In Missouri a 16 year old girl and a 17 year old guy who are dating can have consensual sex. However, because the female is 16 her parents are still responsible for her. The parents are able to press charges against the boy friend because of the females age. Because of the girls age, a conviction for the boyfriend also means registration as a sex offender, when it should not be.


** Disclaimer **
I know sex offenders aren't the most popular people on the planet. Keep in mind, in all of this, that a law doesn't always get applied in the intended manner. Offender laws vary from state to state with the exception of registration.

Hello, new to ATS but not to the Baby Lisa case. I've been following it from the beginning. One thing that is still bugging me is the removal of the tape and tape dispenser, as documented on the search warrant.

We also know from the search warrant that they removed the blanket, clothing and glow worm, all to me sound plausible items which dna could have be found on. If that was the initial purpose (as we do not know the purpose of removal)

Today we hear from the KCPI that all 3 hit for decomp (if true, rumour, although a credible source) but what of the tape dispenser and tape? It's bugged me all along.

Yeah, X, I saw that, too.

What I've discovered since my last post:
the family name is Chivalette. There are entries for both Lisa Ann (Deb's mom) and Deb's grandfather John Chivalette.:

Lisa Ann Chivalette Netz:
www.findagrave.com...
She died at age 36 "unexpectedly". There is a pic of her as well. Her mother's name is Margaret. The photo of the gravestone shows DAD with a date of death, and MOM with a date of birth only.

Lisa was born in Chester where she was reared and educated in Chichester School District. She attended Delaware Technical School earning a certificate in the computer field. She was a self-employed house cleaner for the last 8 years. She has been a member of Alcoholics Anonymous for the last 8 years. She was the daughter of the late John Chivalette, Jr. who died in 1968.

She is survived by her husband of 16 years, David L. Netz, Jr.; 2 sons, Anthony and Phillip Netz both at home; 1 daughter, "Lil" Debbie Netz at home; her mother, Margaret Pretti Chivalette of Linwood; 2 brothers, John Chivalette of White Haven, PA and Vincent Chivalette of Linwood; 3 sisters, Cindy LeRette of Kansas City, MO, Debbie Shanko of Aston, PA and Kristin Mushinski of Linwood; many nieces, nephews and friends.

Pretty big family...LeRette I believe is the mother of Mike LeRette, who came in from Texas, and Johnny did mention on fb that Mike was his nephew from his sister Cindy. She was apparently here at the time of her sister's death.

Lisa Ann's father John Chivalette Jr.. www.findagrave.com...
He died at age 27, already a dad of five...killed by a car.
Pic of him also.
Both pages show the gravestones as Chivalette, and Lisa is buried beside/with her dad.
The two pages are maintained by Deborah's brother Tony N (Yes, I'm assuming, that Tony N is Tony Netz)

Services and burial for John J. Chivalette Jr., 27, who was killed by an automobile Sat. night at 3rd and Wilson Sts., Chester, will be at the convenience of the family.
He lived at 401 Trenton Court, Nether Providence.
Mr. Chivalette attended St. Hedwig's School and was graduated from Upper Chichester High School. He served from 1959 to 1963 in the U.S. Marine Corps and had been a machine operator with Scott Paper Co. in Eddystone for the past five years.
Surviving are his widow, Margaret; three daughters, Cindy Lynn, Lisa Ann, and Deborah Lee all at home; two sons, John Joseph 3rd., and Vincent James at home; his parents, Mr. and Mrs. John J. Chivalette of Boothwyn, Upper Providence; four sisters, Mrs. Barbara Kelly of Boothwyn, Mrs. Darlene Salsgiver of Linwood, Lower Chichester; Mrs. Mary Bryant of Marcus Hook, and Louise Chivalette of Boothwyn; a brother, David of Boothwyn; his grandmother, Mrs. Mary Janusiewicz of Chester and his grandfather, Theodore Chivalette of Garden City.

Really sad story, Deborah's mom dies young, Deborah's grandfather dies young...(had five kids at age 27). Lots of trauma...

So the case involving John and Louise as co-defendants is his sister and himself both. I was thinking it was his mom. No.

reply to post by skibaboo


Its possible the Police have information that has not been released to the public. We can infer this because of the attempt to have the search warrant sealed, which the judge denied.

In addition to DNA being on all of those items, there is also the possibility of trace evidence (fibers / hair / blood / etc etc etc). If there is circumstantial evidence that Lisa's body was wrapped up in something and taped closed, seizure of the tape / dispenser makes sense.

Take my next comment as nothing but explaining possibilities -
If Lisa is found (alive or not alive) and there are signs of abuse one of the things looked at is how the abuse occurred - IE were the arms / legs restrained with an item to prevent the child from moving etc etc etc.

Other possibilities - If Lisa died in the house its possible the clothes she had on could contain evidence of the cause of her death (blood etc). Sometimes that type of evidence (bloody / dirty clothing) is placed into another item, and that item is sealed shut and duped somewhere remote to prevent animals from smelling the scent of blood / etc and exposing the clothes to a more public area (animal thinking the clothing is a dead animal etc).

The same goes for adult clothing for those who might be involved in an action where someone loses a life.

reply to post by Xcathdra


'''Other possibilities - If Lisa died in the house its possible the clothes she had on could contain evidence of the cause of her death (blood etc). Sometimes that type of evidence (bloody / dirty clothing) is placed into another item, and that item is sealed shut and duped somewhere remote to prevent animals from smelling the scent of blood / etc and exposing the clothes to a more public area (animal thinking the clothing is a dead animal etc). '''

This makes me so sad I understand what you are saying here but it's just horrible to think of her favorite blankie maybe being wrapped up in a ziploc bag and packing tape sealed shut Poorest Baby !

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by skibaboo

 

Its possible the Police have information that has not been released to the public. We can infer this because of the attempt to have the search warrant sealed, which the judge denied.

This is what I am hoping, and what I have thought all along. Thank you for your very informative post.

reply to post by skibaboo


by the way, WELCOME to ATS!!
all thoughts and speculations are welcome -- and you've made some good points already!
Yeah, I wondered about the tape and dispenser too.

reply to post by schmae


I agree all of it is sad... However, we must look at every possible angle, no matter how morbid it is. This has been brought up in other threads, but since we have a good group here I will bring it up again and hope you guys understand.

The emotional reaction from people in this thread is justified. You guys aren't related to the case in any manner, and it breaks your heart. Law Enforcement is required to look at everything, including graphic images that would give a person night terrors for some time. Because of the unique bubble law enforcement works in, its difficult for law enforcement to open up and talk about the things they have seen / heard / watched.

Its hard for a police officer to speak to a person who doesn't understand the job (in general). We have a tendency to bottle everything up, which is not good. We will talk to other officers but its a stop gap at times because of the same background. The cop the officer is speaking to may have his own night terrors, so it just adds to it.

One of the coping methods is essentially to detach feelings from the job (not in everything we do obviously, but murders / child abuse / rape etc). That detachment, when viewed by people on the outside, is perceived as arrogant, uncaring, soulless, emotionally disturbed, disrespectful etc.

When dealing with a body cops are known to joke back and forth. Again its a coping method and is not meant to be anything else, but it doesn't come across that way.

I bring this up (and I apologize for it being a bit off topic) so people can take it into consideration the next time they see something about law enforcement. We have people in this thread who are heartbroken / sad about the situation - and this is just one situation.

Law Enforcement will deal with these types of calls throughout their career. We will see in a year what some people would never see in a lifetime. There are other kids missing in Kansas City, and the officers assigned to that case may have worked on this case prior.

* - One of the techniques drilled in is to always play the what if game.
What if im eating lunch and someone with a gun comes in, what if a car comes through the window, what if an accident occurs out front, what if the place is being robbed. What if the domestic im going to is not a domestic but an ambush on law enforcement. What if the missing person call is not a missing person call at all, etc etc etc.

When looking at the situation, like kidnapping, we do the same thing. What if the abductor didn't use the open window, what if they had a key, what if they knew the parents, what if its the parents, what if its a black mail situation by an unknown person, what if the family knows but are purposely hiding information to protect the kid?

We constantly go through that mindset in our job. There is not much difference at all between being a criminal and a police officer. I say this because both groups have the same thoughts - the difference (not always as we know) is police dont act on the thoughts where as criminals do.

We will look at an investigation as law enforcement, but also as a criminal in order to better understand..

We aren't perfect in any sense of the imagination. I point this out in hopes that people might consider this info before passing judgment on law enforcement and actions that seem goofy.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by skibaboo

 

by the way, WELCOME to ATS!!
all thoughts and speculations are welcome -- and you've made some good points already!
Yeah, I wondered about the tape and dispenser too.

I agree and welcome. I didn't see your post status till wildtimes pointed it out.

Welcome and enjoy. Feel free to ask questions and jump on into the conversation. We know its over 150 pages, so dont worry about asking a question that may have already been answered.

welcome

reply to post by skibaboo

Hello, new to ATS but not to the Baby Lisa case. I've been following it from the beginning. One thing that is still bugging me is the removal of the tape and tape dispenser, as documented on the search warrant.

We also know from the search warrant that they removed the blanket, clothing and glow worm, all to me sound plausible items which dna could have be found on. If that was the initial purpose (as we do not know the purpose of removal)

Thanks for chiming in and Welcome to ATS!

About that tape dispencer. It's been bugging me for a while. And it goes back to the garbage bag over the window.

WHEN was that garbage bag placed there? Was the tape dispenser used to apply the tape to keep the garbage bag up? Could it have been put up the very night Lisa went missing? - You know, fake the break in scene and garbage bag over the baby's window. Something there is adding up, I'm just no sure hat yet. More of a mind-set psychological thing than physical.

Also - WHY would LE feel the need to take a tape dispenser for evidence? Was it just laying around? Where did they 'find' it? What led them to believe the TD was important?

Thanks for asking - it's good to take some of the older physical facts and rehash them.

Welcome, again, to ATS.

peace

reply to post by schmae

This makes me so sad I understand what you are saying here but it's just horrible to think of her favorite blankie maybe being wrapped up in a ziploc bag and packing tape sealed shut Poorest Baby !

Oh Schmae. How sad is that.
That's what makes me so angry at the parents.
No biggy, baby Lisa's nighty blanket is sealed up in a plastic bag in some evidence room somewhere but, too bad, let's get back to normal life, I mean it's been a whole two months we've had to deal with this crap. Like, get over it already.

Keep praying on time Schmae. Time will solve this case I'm sure of it. Someone is going to give and there's going to be some argument or stress release factor and we'll find out. Time. Time. Time...

peace

Former Homicide Detective: Fact That Baby Lisa’s Parents Have Asked for Prayer Vigils to Stop Is a Tell-Tale Sign

Former Homicide Detective Rod Wheeler joined America Live to comment on the latest update in the case, saying, “If this isn’t a tell-tale scenario here, Megyn, what is? I mean nine times out of 10, Megyn, most parents, especially in a case of a missing child would want people to be there, would want people to come and have a prayer vigil or what have you. Those folks are saying, ‘It’s time to move on with our lives. Get out of my driveway, get out of my yard and move somewhere else.’ What does that tell you, I wonder?”

The detective goes on to say the 'stop' of the vigils is a 'telltale' sign the police are on the right track to focus on the parents. The excuse of the vigils are 'bothering the boys' is ridiculous.

John Walsh is 100% correct. These parents need to cooperate with the PD.

(Says the homicide detective being interviewed).

Time. Time. Time... That's all we need. Justice being served will never replace a baby girl... But it might give her and everyone else peace. Even the parents. If they are guilty it must be one hell of a load to bear. If they are guilty I hope it breaks them. Splits them in two. Only then can the healing start.

peace