Lisa Irwin - Missing - One Year Later

deleted for decorum purposes.
sorry.

Originally posted by sussy
One more theory, maybe unlikely but could happen, Baby Lisa climbed out of her cot, crawled to the unlocked door, got out, crawled into a space in front garden, Man in area picked up baby Lisa, walked off with her. Man too scared to come forward.... Just another one to chuck out there..

edit on 5-12-2011 by sussy because: (no reason given)

Possible, but then what about the 3 cell phones, and the open window.
I would almost wonder about a child of that age being able to open the door, but then again I know they can be rather sneaky.

Ladies please, enough. Suck it in and be done with it.
Maturity and compassion will see those posters trip up by themselves.

Remember Lisa was a living, breathing member of a household that needs help, needs everyone not to forget her existence and not to abandon her with trivial delicacies of what was posted or not.

reply to post by vogon42

Jeremy comes home and panic sets in? Where's Lisa he asks Deborah?

Who knows what they did next. And why.
It was a random theory in amongst other theories.
I did think after I posted it , it was far fetched but stranger things have happened.

reply to post by vogon42


As far as I remember she was NOT walking yet. She ws beginning to pull up and stand like leaning on the couch, etc., but unable to walk on her own so opening a door on her own is unlikely. However if she were wandering around on the floor while the other THREE kids were playing and mom and neighbor are in and out several times to fetch fresh ice or wine then it's possible the door might not have latched. But they were allegedly sitting on that front stoop during all those hours, so surely they'd have seen her coming.
I tell you what bothers me..... the idea that Lisa was even alive at that time at all. Samantha saw her , checked on her in bed, apparently fine at 5 ish give or take. If Lisa was awake at that time, and you walk into a baby's room you would have to be really talking to them and probably picking them up and carrying them around. You cannot walk into an baby's room and them be awake and just walk back out without some serious crying, right? So that leads me to believe she was asleep at that time. So can Samantha look and tell if she's asleep and not in a triaminic induced stupor? See? The only sightings of Lisa all day on Monday, besides her immediate family, are Samantha who saw her IN HER BED and Samanthsa 4 yr old , who remember Deb putting her to bed. How accurate would a 4 yr old relay the information of p utting her to bed? Couldnt' Deb say Oh i just put Lisa to bed and the 4 yr old later on say she remember Deb putting her to bed? It doesnt' necessarily mean she SAW Lisa at all, right? Or certainly not awake? Deb may have been carrying an already injured Lisa around and said I have to put her in the bed and 4 yr old thinks she put her to 'bed for sleep' . It 's just disturbing there is no better account of Lisa in the last few hours prior to the WINDOW of time we already know of.

I was searching around for details on the timeline, who what when, that sort of stuff and came across this. I have missed this up until now, so I thought I would post it just incase others had missed it.

Posted: Oct 14, 2011 8:54 PM EDT
Updated: Oct 28, 2011 8:54 PM EDT

KANSAS CITY, MO (KCTV) -

The first Kansas City Police Department officers responding to a report that baby Lisa Irwin has disappeared are alerted to a recent theft complaint involving her father.

Jeremy Irwin called police about 4 a.m. Oct. 4 to report that daughter Lisa was missing from her crib. KCTV5 obtained on Friday the radio transmissions between dispatchers and police officers.

One of the responding officers is told about an Aug. 16 call involving Irwin.

"There was a complaint issued to a Jeremy Irwin regards to a larceny," the dispatcher tells the officer. "You can log it onto your call and also could you call me for additional information in regards to that call."
kctv5.com

No other information is given on the complaint. So does this mean that someone had tried to break into the house before? Does this bolster the abduction theory? Or was the previous complaint used as an idea for a coverup?

Not sure how to take this bit of info.

OiO

reply to post by sussy


I have also considered, sussy, that Lisa, being able to pull up as we know she was (standing at glass door), had her mattress WAY too high in her crib. She could have been upset/fussy, and fallen out of it, hit her head, broken her neck, whatever...and was discovered later by...one of her brothers? Deborah?

In which case it was completely an accident, a tragic accident. But all the not remembering and covering up and phone calls and such....so elaborate and bizarro!

(and, for my part, Thanks for the polite reminder. I think some of us were so frustrated for so long that some cheap shots had to be sucked up and/or ignored....that, well, yeah. Sorry to stoop to that level. I can only take so much before I call 'foul'
-wild)

Originally posted by schmae
reply to post by vogon42

 

.... So that leads me to believe she was asleep at that time. So can Samantha look and tell if she's asleep and not in a triaminic induced stupor?....

I totally agree. I wonder if perhaps after a few drinks mom might have confused the adult medicine with the child's medicine. Also possible if the brothers could not wake mom, could they have decided to do what they see mommy do, and give her medicine.

I realize its rather dark to think about, but I would much prefer this to an outright intentional killing.

I do wonder sometimes if Deborah ever says privately to her family "If ever I didn't drink that night"
"If only I checked on her sooner"
I haven't seen her in the media to seem at all regretful.
Maybe her personality and demeanor doesn't feel she needs to. That's her right. But somehow if I wanted MY baby to be found I would be appealing to the public and I would be trying to get the public interested enough by being honest and regretful to endear them to me for sympathy and understanding to facilitate Lisa to be constantly in the news.
Has she just given up? Or just want the attention to go away?
I just can't fathom out her reactions to all this.

reply to post by vogon42

I really have trouble buying the "random stranger" bit. There are just too many issues
In all my LE experience, I have (thankfully) only been on two missing child cases. The parents/ guardians were MUCH more cooperative than those in this issue.

Thank you, first, for the America's Most wanted Link - I'll be going there directly. I was looking for it but some programs from the States get blocked where I am.
Second, I don't buy the 'random stranger' bit either - unless it's a 'thrill kill' type situation - like (I think it was Schmea) said - to get into a gang, etc, and with some of the people surrounding the family, that's not so out of the question.
As for parents being cooperative in a missing child case. Yes, that is the norm. At least for those parents that want their children back.

Thank you for sticking with the thread despite the obvious...distractions.

Peace

reply to post by OneisOne


Maybe he saw the cell phones missing first ? Called 911 and THEN realized the baby was missing? But that would not jive with his running across the street to see if Lisa were there ( which is weird and makes me think she occasionally might have slept at neighbors when deb ws drunk) and THEN called 911. I wonder if we'll ever get to hear those 911 tapes. Maybe there is something really TELLING on the tapes that Jeremy doesnt' even remember saying that night when he called in a panic.

reply to post by wildtimes

But then, Johnny C also says Netz is a killer and he's in on the whole thing.

Ok, so here's a news flash from way out on a shaky limb.
He's a suspected (by the family) murderer.
Did 'little Debbie' know the truth of that situation?
Deborah has his cell phone.
Deborah gets 'in trouble'.
Deborah calls him with a 'You help me or I'm telling on you' ploy???

Wow... It's not like that couldn't have happened, and very easily.

???

Originally posted by schmae
reply to post by OneisOne

 

Maybe he saw the cell phones missing first ? Called 911 and THEN realized the baby was missing? But that would not jive with his running across the street to see if Lisa were there ( which is weird and makes me think she occasionally might have slept at neighbors when deb ws drunk) and THEN called 911. I wonder if we'll ever get to hear those 911 tapes. Maybe there is something really TELLING on the tapes that Jeremy doesnt' even remember saying that night when he called in a panic.

Actually, the previsions complaint was from August, so few months before Lisa went missing. I am very cusious to know what the August complaint was all about.

And yes, I would like to hear those 911 tapes too!

OiO

Originally posted by schmae
reply to post by wildtimes

 

'''Rrriiiiight. Schmae, who admits to being uncertain how the quote and embedding stuff works...yeah. She is the one who manipulated YOUR POST and the quotes that YOU COPY/PASTED!! '''

Thanks for reminding everyone I'm ill equipped ROFL!

never said you manipulated my post ..now did I..but you certainly changed the words on yours..I know that for a fact..

I can make a mistake reading at times.. but when I specifically chose this quote to ask there was a reason.. I actually thought shcmae might have some info that did lead to deb trying to access the net from her home PC..hence the asking for the link that showed that..

Instead I get denial.. and .. when I go back and clearly read again the post I made..i find to my delight the original still there..so I copy and paste it to prove what I am saying.. then how??..I don't know..but it get changed as well..?

Now.. how could I misread something that many times..? and the proof in the wording shows that something is suspect about it..

Do mods have access to how as well as when posts were changed?.. Do they have all details of posts like that.. because I would sure like at least 3 of them to look into this.. very carefully.

It was brought to my attention by someone else that silo has also changed some of the wording in her posts way after the time mark for doing so has passed..?

all of this leads me to become very suspicious.. and while I want to trust mods as a whole..and still do.. I would love for the ones who are totally impartial to this thread as well as the posters on it to look into the edits .. of that particular post I referred to..if it is possible.. exactly what was edited.. and when..

I don't blame them if they think its unimportant..but I know what I know.. and like I said.. this whole editing thing has shown me something very important today.. about trust... and being honest.

God knows the truth.

reply to post by sussy

First of all my apologies for the unnecessary behavior by some in the thread. I know it's distracting and painful to read at times (I mean my gawd how embarrassing to watch someone completely debase themselves) - but - it's the price we pay for having an open forum. I do regret there isn't a little more 'managing' going on in this thread - but - far be it from me to point that out - I'd much rather have free speech than 'Nanny-ism'! So, the best thing we can do is ignore the disruptions. I'm glad you've stuck by us!

I do wonder sometimes if Deborah ever says privately to her family "If ever I didn't drink that night"
"If only I checked on her sooner"

I can only hope so for all their sakes but you know what? When I heard the tone in her voice when she replied to the reporter 'We're grieving'? That 'tone' said it all. I don't think she does censor herself at all. Not one bit. JMHO.

I haven't seen her in the media to seem at all regretful.

I don't think anyone else has either.

Maybe her personality and demeanor doesn't feel she needs to. That's her right.

That's where I get stuck sometimes. People do react differently to different situations. Deborah has had a 'tough life' (so they say). Some people learn at an early age to just 'turn off' emotionally. I do wonder at times if that's what she's done. Just 'turned herself off'...

I just can't fathom out her reactions to all this.

Neither can I, but I've been trying to and again, like I stated above. Maybe she has just 'flipped the switch' on her emotions. For many reasons.

???

Peace

reply to post by silo13


Nicely reasoned!!
I was trying to figure out why Johnny C keeps saying the whole thing is about the Netz and Chivalettes (his spelling) having issues that led up to this...He has stated more than once that Deborah's mother Lisa was killed by Netz (poisoned), and that Deborah killed baby Lisa, her mother's namesake...not HOW, though.

And he maintains the Irwin side of Lisa's family have nothing to do with it or knowledge of it.

He has also stated that Deborah and her two brothers Philip (the one who drove her to store for wine and sundries) and Tony (who Johnny claims is gay but hiding it) all THREE of them suspect their father is guilty of killing Lisa Chivalette Netz (their mother). He is trying to reopen her case in Delaware. It was after her death that Netz came back to the KC area with the kids, and that's why they are here now.

If Johnny is just a rumor-monger, he is a vicious one, and adamant about it being truth that has been covered up for all these years (10 years). If he is for real, he is airing the families' dirty laundry in bits and pieces but also has told the investigators EVERYTHING....
and says he's been in touch with them since day 2 of this horrid mess.

reply to post by gabby2011


Ok Gabby , I've implored a mod to look into it and been assured that a ' few ' will do just that. So there's nothing else to say about it now.

reply to post by wildtimes


Agreed nicely reasoned to Silo.
If Deb's dad is a drunk, which I think is fairly common knowledge, imagine what drunk folks say when they're drunk.......imagine him spilling it ever so little during his drunken times. Maybe he even asked the kids for forgiveness in his drunken states. Hmmmm.

reply to post by OneisOne


Someone broke into their car in August. So possible the dispatcher was stating to police something like ' you have been called to this address before for a robbery in august , same address and family , new story though' Maybe this is standard in dispatch so police know what they will encuonter. If the 911 call had been a domestic abuse call and police had been there on a domestic abuse call in August, the responding officers would want to know this before arrival.

The Uncle has been suspicious of his mother's death for all of these years. It has maybe, eaten him up inside, as he cannot prove it one way or the other. Now Lisa has gone missing, He now points the finger at Netz and wants justice. By bringing in Lisa's abduction and being vocal on a public site, he really is investing a lot of energies into bringing it all into the limelight. In his head it's all connected but lets be aware he has an emotive interest in this. Mainly his suspicions of his mother's death.
Now lets think for a moment of when he heard of Lisa's abduction. Can you imagine what was going through his mind?
2 Lisa's
1 family
Possibly 2 death's