Why i love Jesus. Why Jesus is love.

Originally posted by Prezbo369
The Biblical god doesnt know the meaning of love

Love isn't threatening others with eternal punishment, for merely not believing.

Ya know...if you look, you'll find there's actually very little direct reference to Hell in the New Testament. About the most direct it gets, is Revelation's reference to certain people having a place in the lake of fire. Read the Gospels, though, and you really won't find much. There's a reference to "the outside, where there will be weeping, and wailing and gnashing of teeth," and another reference which translates to Gahenna, which was actually a pre-medieval fired landfill outside Jerusalem, rather than the eternal, universal Hell.

Virtually all of what we know today about Hell, actually comes from Dante's Inferno, dated to the 14th century; nearly the end of the Middle Ages, in other words.

I'm sure the Christians will all leap in here and enthusiastically inform me that, oh no, Hell is absolutely sanctioned and referred to by Jesus, and I'm also absolutely going there for daring to try and imply otherwise...but see here's the thing.

When Christians talk about God, or Yahweh, they're talking about the creator of the Universe. Then, as you say, to a certain extent they imply that said being routinely behaves in a manner reminiscent of Genghis Khan, purely for kicks.

It might be instructive to keep in mind here, that being the creator of the Universe, means creating a lot of stuff. So that means lots of vicious predatory animals which kill and eat each other, yes...but it also means creating large numbers of lifeforms that are actually fairly benevolent towards each other, as well.

Then you've also got what we know about the structure and function of ecosystems, which says that terrestrial environments, even while accounting for predators, are fundamentally co-operative in nature. The prey provide the predators with food, sure; but the predators in turn ensure that the prey don't become overpopulated, and wipe themselves out that way, etc.

What's my point? Namely, that while refusing to believe in the existence of a supreme being because you've never met him before is reasonable enough, refusing to believe in *any* supreme being at all simply because of the Christian perspective, is kind of dumb.

Almost as dumb, in fact, as believing that the creator of the entire Universe is a psychopathic monster, who is going to cause people to burn eternally in Hell.

reply to post by Prezbo369

The Biblical god doesnt know the meaning of love

There seems to be a division on this forum between the Christians for love and life, and the so-called Christians for hate and death.
You can easily spot the latter by their usage of the Old Testament spellings for their god.
New Testament Christians for love and life will not find it beneath them to use the New Testament spelling of, Jesus, while the "Christians" for hate and death have nothing but contempt for the things of the New Covenant and create a person whose name has in it the name of their OT god.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Right ok, i know nothing about the new testament, whatever. Clearly you apparently do not know how to read between the lines and understand what is being told to you, so go ahead, you believe what you want and i'll believe what i want and bygones will be bygones. Good day to you sir!

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Wow, you're learning to accept others as they are...

Congradulations man, i think theres hope for you yet

reply to post by Prezbo369


You're operating on the premise that the central tenet of Christianity is "join us or be damned to hell for eternity."

But you're right that that's not love, because love to BE love, must be free, free to freely give, freely receive, and then freely give again in kind, as a self sustaining and emerging wellspring of love meeting love.

You need to bear in mind that there is another spirit which hates this love, this liberation, and in particular the exaltation of the human being, as made in the image of God.

This spirit will cause men to twist a loving warning about being excluded or locked out, on the one hand, and on the other, by the same spirit of hatred, to use such things as an excuse to dismiss the rest.

This is why I advocated in the OP for an entirely non-coercive approach which would seek out the all-inclusive nature at the heart of the Love presented in, by and through the person of Jesus.

For the sake of what is loving, we, especially Christians, must take a stand against that spirit of exclusion and division, and hatred for God's love given through Jesus - not in others (since we cannot be responsible for another person' hatred), but within ourselves as followers of the example of Christ. And we must remember too, as i also pointed out, we were ourselves presented with a loving invitation to enter in to the embrace and the sphere of God's love, in spite of ourselves, so who are we to go around throttling folks, on the basis of a warning about hell, this is the work of the devil (spirit of hatred) working through Christians, because the very thing the spirit of hatred hates most, is the liberated love of Christ, which represents the loss of his control and dominion, as a point of leverage rooted in the duality of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (should and shouldn't).

Do not let this deter an honest and open minded inquiry however, as there is magnificent and rewarding treasure to be found in the love of Christ, and that treasure is you.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Right ok, i know nothing about the new testament, whatever. Clearly you apparently do not know how to read between the lines and understand what is being told to you, so go ahead, you believe what you want and i'll believe what i want and bygones will be bygones. Good day to you sir!

For emphasis:

understand what is being told to you

Therein lies the problem. Are schooling us or are we having a discussion about a debatable issue?

reply to post by windword

The way lies within each of us, the tree of life resides within us. We don't need look to scriptures for salvation, its a done deal. To abandon this supposition is a lack of faith in the power and love of the creator, as you call it. Scripture is for inspiration not judgment.

The proof is in the results.
If you deny that power, all the scriptures in the world are useless.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Right ok, i know nothing about the new testament, whatever. Clearly you apparently do not know how to read between the lines and understand what is being told to you, so go ahead, you believe what you want and i'll believe what i want and bygones will be bygones. Good day to you sir!

What you seem to be saying is that you are special and God gave you the mission to write your own Gospel and present it as God's word, and so are the replacement for Christ on Earth.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by Prezbo369

 

You need to bear in mind that there is another spirit which hates this love, this liberation, and in particular the exaltation of the human being, as made in the image of God.

.

As it has been pointed out earlier in this thread, we may be giving to much power to these so called demons, or enemies of God.
I want to fly but gravity hates me, and is deliberately working to stop me from achieving my goal!

reply to post by jmdewey60


Just so long as we don't have to TRY to be righteous, but instead get to participate in what is good for it's own sake, and thus, to be truly happy.

It is good to be good, for goodness' sake, not not to not be bad.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by Prezbo369

 

You're operating on the premise that the central tenet of Christianity is "join us or be damned to hell for eternity."

Well, it is, pretty much. At least if you're talking about the Pauline interpretation, of course; which most people generally are. There are the Essenes, and to a certain extent they have some different ideas. There are some who would hold the perspective that the Essenes' beliefs, are closer to a logical continuation of what Jesus actually said, rather than what Paul and various other people did.

You'll notice that comparitively speaking in the Bible, Jesus really doesn't get a whole lot of airtime. You've got the Gospels, and then after that in the NT, you've essentially got a number of other people offering you their own (sometimes conflicting) perspectives on what he meant. There's a large section of his life which isn't mentioned in the canonical Gospels at all, even.

After I left the church myself in 2007, I looked around a bit, and lo and behold, I discovered a number of other books which were apparently written at about the same time, but which weren't included in the canon Bible, for whatever reason. It turns out that some of these books included a lot of material which was very consistent with the positive nature of the Sermon on the Mount, as well.

I spent a lot of my time reading Jesus' words during my childhood, and some of them sounded pretty much identical to the initial voice. Their fruit was the same, at least; and that, as always, is your yardstick.

This spirit will cause men to twist a loving warning about being excluded or locked out, on the one hand, and on the other, by the same spirit of hatred, to use such things as an excuse to dismiss the rest.

No, you need to go a bit further. The spirit you're talking about here, was the one that came up with the whole idea of being excluded or left out in the first place. Exclusion and being left out, is not fundamentally a positive idea. God doesn't do that.

This is why I advocated in the OP for an entirely non-coercive approach which would seek out the all-inclusive nature at the heart of the Love presented in, by and through the person of Jesus.

If you want that type of approach, you will need to get rid of the idea of Hell entirely. Before you object to that, look at why you're objecting to it. Is it because if you get rid of the idea of Hell, you're actually getting rid of the only reason people have to be Christian in the first place?

There are other reasons, of course. Lots of good ones. You just have to work a little harder to find those, than you do with the fear of Hell. I didn't learn to really love Jesus myself until after I left the church. I couldn't; I was too afraid.

this is the work of the devil (spirit of hatred) working through Christians, because the very thing the spirit of hatred hates most, is the liberated love of Christ, which represents the loss of his control and dominion, as a point of leverage rooted in the duality of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (should and shouldn't).

Yep; and you're onto the real incentive behind salvation, there.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by windword

 

The way lies within each of us, the tree of life resides within us. We don't need look to scriptures for salvation, its a done deal. To abandon this supposition is a lack of faith in the power and love of the creator, as you call it. Scripture is for inspiration not judgment.

The proof is in the results.
If you deny that power, all the scriptures in the world are useless.

Indeed. Absent the love of God made known and experienced, the whole thing is worthless.

I only pray that if heaven is some sort of mansion (I'm sure that was just a spiritual allegory), and I find myself there, that I will not be surrounded by traditional Christians, that perhaps they might enjoy each other's company, in another wing, or on another floor.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Just so long as we don't have to TRY to be righteous, but instead get to participate in what is good for it's own sake, and thus, to be truly happy.

It is good to be good, for goodness' sake, not not to not be bad.

Exactly. It is the change of heart where everything comes from.

reply to post by petrus4


I think that Jesus was right, however, to teach that there are consequences, for certain ways of thinking and being ie: that unless we forgive, we cannot be forgiven, and we could find ourselves imprisoned and not getting out until we have paid the very last penny.

For the record, I do not believe in an eternal hell, just hell's of our own making.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by windword

 

The way lies within each of us, the tree of life resides within us. We don't need look to scriptures for salvation, its a done deal. To abandon this supposition is a lack of faith in the power and love of the creator, as you call it. Scripture is for inspiration not judgment.

The proof is in the results.
If you deny that power, all the scriptures in the world are useless.

Indeed. Absent the love of God made known and experienced, the whole thing is worthless.

I only pray that if heaven is some sort of mansion (I'm sure that was just a spiritual allegory), and I find myself there, that I will not be surrounded by traditional Christians, that perhaps they might enjoy each other's company, in another wing, or on another floor.

Once those christians pass, all will be revealed.... they will understand love, and share it freely...on the other hand because of the absence of that love.... i believe they might have to come back here for more lessons.

reply to post by Akragon


Yes. I agree with that, or is it utter blasphemy to be a Christian and believe in reincarnation? I don't think so.

reply to post by XelNaga


You said it all....Perfect!

jesus promised to end evil and all that stuff....odin promised to remove ice giants...i dont see many ice giants around

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
I think that Jesus was right, however, to teach that there are consequences, for certain ways of thinking and being ie: that unless we forgive, we cannot be forgiven, and we could find ourselves imprisoned and not getting out until we have paid the very last penny.

Absolutely. I never said actions do not have consequences.

For the record, I do not believe in an eternal hell, just hell's of our own making.

Oh, Hell exists. It's quite real. The film What Dreams May Come, offers a reasonable analogy for the scenario there, I think.

The difference between my perspective and that of mainstream Christianity, however, is that Christians think God decides whether or not you go there. I believe that you *can* go to a Hell construct based not only on your moral karma, but also your energetic resonance as a result of that; but that you go there as a result of your own choices, rather than because you're arbitrarily sent there by any external agent.

I also don't believe that Hell has to be permanent, either. It certainly *can* be; but you have much more of a chance of getting out than Christians think.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by Akragon

 

Yes. I agree with that, or is it utter blasphemy to be a Christian and believe in reincarnation? I don't think so.

you can find reincarnation in the bible believe it or not, you just have to know where to look...

I believe Jesus taught it, he did in the gnostic scriptures. He also taught meditation btw

reply to post by petrus4


Jesus, understood and received, is still the end of evil. But as I pointed out before, I'm sure Satan loves that #..

What I'm having a difficult time understanding, is why we, both believers and non alike cannot seem to move our minds and hearts in a new direction? Are we prevented from doing so, and if so, why?

I am free to love.

I cannot be responsible for another's hatred, bigotry or ignorance.

I am free to love.

Repeat... (yes, I'm talking to myself)