I Am a Straight, Married Christian Male in Support of Gay Marriage

So much arguing about a complete non-issue. I see no reason why a paper from government is in any way needed for marriage. Separation of marriage and state is what we need, that would solve gay marriage and polygamy debates overnight.

Originally posted by Trueman
With al respect to your opinion, I don't hate gay people but gay marriage is wrong in my opinion.

You should review the definitions of your religion, seems to be a conflict with what you are saying. Christianity and gay marriage don't go together.

I am christian too, I don't find Brad Pitt attractive but Angelina Jolie is hot.

actually you need to look at the bible it contradicts itself a million times, for example the world is made from Adam and Eve, therefore they have children, the children must have had sex with each other in order to pro create then the children of the children had sex with each other in order to pro create, doesn't the bible teach that insest is wrong and a deadly sin, also isn't coveting and having impure thoughts about Angelina Jollie also wrong, therefore you are going to hell my friend.

Why would god make gay people if it was wrong in every part of nature there are gay animals just look at wikipedia on gay animals.
Wikipedia on gay animals

reply to post by ModernAcademia


WOW...lesbians can't play baseball? Hmmm.....So, during the long course of all of human history, a man and a woman were absolutely necessary to raise a healthy, well-adjusted adult??? I'm not trying to slam you, or start an argument. But these statements are (IMO), kind of homophobic ( Albeit. perhaps, unintentionally).
Gay people can be great parents, and for your information, the majority of child abusers ( sexually and otherwise ), are "straight".

This begs the question; What is the definition of a family? It's not as simple as you seem to think that it is.
Would you prefer to see children in orphanages, or in a loving home with gay parents?
Gay rights is the primary civil rights issue of the 21st Century, Homophobia is equal to racism, or any other flavor of intolerance. You don't come off as a hater,but I think you should look at your chain of logic on this issue.

Kudos to you for being smart and brave enough to speak honestly and openly on this issue. Gay Rights is the prime Civil Rights issue of the 21st Century, ( so far ). Gay people just want to enjoy the same rights as everyone else. There is so much that could be said about this, but I'm not going to beat a dead horse. There are Christians which have a social/morality agenda, and those Christians have a tendancy to want to impose their religious and world views on everyone else, which kind of makes them a pain in the arse. I don't mind them being in the mix, but they should be more accepting instead of rejecting ( IMO ). This is tantamount to saying, "I don't like tomatoes, I think they're repulsive, therefore, no one should eat tomatoes, and they should be banned."
Observant Jews don't eat animals with cloven hooves, but they're not on a campaign to prevent you from having bacon with your breakfast.

And yes, marriage is a CONTRACT, you are so very correct. If it wasn't, it wouldn't require a judge to dissolve it.
Some people act like marriage is a Christian invention.
Live and let live as long as there's no harm or infringement of rights to others....

reply to post by 200457


What a wonderful double entendre you posted.

As to making their own (avoiding your colorful metaphor), well Homosexuals can do that. There are certainly enough female surrogates and sperm donors to do just that. However that would spoil the point of my post, all those children the breeding population keep squirting out in countless legions need good homes. Let Homosexuals adopt and marry and share in such a postive apect of life. Seems like a win to me.

Gay people have contributed so much to society. To deny them the same right to marriage is ridiculous and a slap in the face to all the great things that we enjoy because of them. I love gay people because they make my property value go up. If you have a lot of gays in your neighborhood, you know what I'm talking about. I don't mean to stereotype, but it's TRUE! Ever since gays have moved into my neighborhood, the crime has plummeted, the streets aren't as littered with trash, and we now have a great used book store owned by a gay couple AND one of the best cafes I have ever been to, AND my property value has skyrocketed.

I used to be virulently anti-gay when I was a teenager. This was because I grew up in rough neighborhoods where you had to be ultra macho to survive.

I would 100% prefer to live next to a gay couple than a religious fundie couple.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by The Old American

 

You can't be done with your own thread?

You've seen these threads before, and you knew what to expect. Stick it out.

As for this.....

Humans tend to be monogamous and want to formalize that monogamy.

I have never seen a monogamous human before! I have seen some that were sworn to monogamy and struggled to maintain it despite their natural urges, but humans are not biologically monogamous. There are animals that mate for life, and they do so without any moral code or penalty for cheating, they are just naturally monogamous. Human beings are not one of those animals! We are programmed as predators and conquerers, and we have a natural desire exactly opposite of monogamy.

I'm sure there are exceptions, but I'm also sure the amount of infidelity, adultery, divorce, and rape show that monogamy is not our natural state.

As I sit here reading post after post of people regurgitating what they've been taught by the Holy See, or from Westboro Baptist, I can only think that I am fanning flames that don't need to be fanned. I started this, yes, and I don't regret it. But sitting at my desk yelling at these Neanderthals is not doing me any good.

I almost didn't mention that my faith follows the teachings of Jesus, because my main argument for gay marriage is that they should have the same right to contract that traditional couples do. But I wouldn't be me if I didn't put everything on the table. Maybe I'll come back to the thread, but I don't like getting angry at an internet forum. So I'm out for now.

TOA

Originally posted by The Old American


Then, about a year ago, I was looking at my marriage license (I needed it for insurance) and I said to myself, "Self, this looks a lot like a contract." And I thought about what marriage is, what is agreed upon, who is responsible for what, and realization dawned: this doesn't just look like a contract, this is a legally-binding contract between two individuals!"

That is the disgusting inversion our government has made of the metaphysical union of man and woman. "A man shall leave father and mother and cleave to a wife and the two shall become one flesh. Therefor let not man separate that which God has joined together". I don't support gay marriage within the Church, because the Bible is against it, BUT I have a worse problem with the government co-opting marriage, turning it into a legal contract, and then regulating it. If other Churches want to marry homosexual couples, I say let them. They have their free will and they can be as wrong as they like. So long as the Orthodox Church doesn't stoop to making concessions to the spirit of the day, I don't care.

The "it's against God" argument is fallacious. In Leviticus (of the Jewish Torah and Christian bible) the laws against homosexuality are thus:

18:22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

If one believes what the bible says, as I do (mostly, but that's another story

), then homosexuality is against God. However, context is king here. Those two scriptures are describing the very infancy of humans on Earth. It's difficult at best to "be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth" if humans aren't procreating. Fundamentalists often point to Paul the Apostle as speaking against homosexuality. However, the word didnt even enter the Christian bible until the early 1970's. In the original text he talked about "sexual immorality", which could be any of a number of things.

I partially agree with you that the early commandments against homosexuality may have been for a time when our species couldn't afford to be homosexual and nowadays multiplying has looming dire consequences for the world. However, sexual immorality in a Jewish context included homosexuality, though sodomy is nowhere near as narrow as homosexuality alone. If Paul didn't say it's ok and condemned OT sexual immorality with that broad brush, then it is logical to conclude that the prohibition remains.

Love and devotion between two people, whatever their gender, should be promoted and held up as an example of morality and family values.

Why does it have to be sexual? Eros is often mistaken for true love, and it can be, but often times it is selfish lust. Why can't they live together in brotherly love, the love the Bible holds up as exemplary?

Traditional couples have proportionally more divorces and instances of cheating than do gay couples

This is patently false. My California issue Psychology textbook says that infidelity is far more prevalent among homosexuals. This argument is a strawman. Of course there are more cheating heterosexuals, there are more heterosexuals. It's the percentage that shows the truth. The homosexual culture, especially in its centers (Castro district, Greenwich Village, etc) is full of other forms of sexual deviancy: multiple partners, bathroom solicitation, and drug use to enhance the experience. Not saying that all of them are like that. My cousin is very faithful to his partner, Christian, and thinks much of the homosexual culture is disgusting.

The Bible is against it, but the illegality of it is a State infringement on the rights of autonomous churches who can decide that themselves.

Anyone against marriage is a self centered ignorant douchebag as far as I'm concerned. Anyone is free to have any religion they want, but forcing your religious opinions on others and ruining their happiness is ridiculous. And no, marriage is not some religious right only, you don't have to be christian to get married nor do you have to go to a church, you can get married without any religion involved whatsoever therefor it is ridiculous to deny anyone the privilege because your bible says its a no-no. "Civil marriage is the legal concept of marriage as a governmental institution irrespective of religious affiliation, in accordance with marriage laws of the jurisdiction."

Arguing that marriage should be reserved for those who can procreate is even more retarded and hypocritical. There are plenty of male-female couples allowed to get married who are physically unable to have children due to medical reasons or tied tubes, or have no desire to have them, etc, so if those male-female pairs can still marry why couldn't gays? Not to mention, we already have overpopulation issues, its hardly a bad thing not every person in the world wants to pop out 4 more kids.

The ONLY argument I could perhaps somewhat understand is I think any individual CHURCH should have a right to deny hosting a gay marriage if they feel its against their particular brand of religion. Who a particular church wants to marry is up to them. There's still other means by which gays can then get married if a particular church denies them, go to another church or do it without a church, people wed without some big church ceremony all the time. Its ridiculously wrong for the state to deny gay marriage.

reply to post by kallisti36


I always avoid doing the one liners. So technically, I'll up it to 6 sentences.
What is it with you guys, and your need to impose your will on others?
Either accept the world (which you believe your god created -ALL of it, including gay people), or retreat to a monastary and remove yourself from society. I would prefer you do the latter, but I'm willing to accept you in society anyway. I practice tolerance.

reply to post by kallisti36

This is patently false. My California issue Psychology textbook says that infidelity is far more prevalent among homosexuals.

You cannot trust any statistic on this issue, because the rules are different. A married couple might get through an occurence of infidelity, because a divorce is expensive and complicated, whereas a couple just living together will likely break-up with no problem. Since gay couples have not been allowed to marry, then they all fall into the category of easier breakups.

Also, a married couple takes vows of monogamy, whereas a non-married couple just tries to be monogamous out of respect for one another.

There is absolutely no way anyone can do a fair study about who is more promiscuous between gay and straight couples.

Plus, in any such study........people LIE! The studies are flawed at their roots, because we are questioning people about a taboo subject. Perhaps gay people are just more honest about their infidelities? Perhaps married people have too much to lose to feel comfortable being honest in answering the questions?

Sorry, but your text book is not only flawed, but should be sued for inflammatory, slanderous, and libelous content based on faulty data.

Originally posted by SuperTripps
I will never understand why straight people go to bat on this issue and allow themselves to be manipulated by the political elite over this. same as abortion

I go to bat for gay people because they are being discriminated against. They are my fellow brothers and sisters and I care about them. Women have been and are discriminated against and I know how that feels. I have compassion for people who are being treated unfairly.

But by the grace of god, go I.

Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. ~ Jesus

In other words, if someone were discriminating against me, I'd want people to stand up for what's right, not just turn their heads... What's so hard to understand about that?

As far as the government manipulation, people are only manipulated if they agree to be. Marriage is a choice, it's not mandatory. Married people aren't victims of government.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


YOU ROCK.

reply to post by The Old American


I think Astro smurf said it best when he said "Then he smurfed a pole, and it was supposed to be a greased pole, except that some Smurf forgot to grease it." Followed by Hefty Smurf's "I will smurf that greased pole, Papa Smurf.".

Who cares if people smurf pole? Certainly they should enjoy the same rights as other Smurfs.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/58faa57f1160.jpg[/atsimg]

Originally posted by The Old American

The "it's against God" argument is fallacious. In Leviticus (of the Jewish Torah and Christian bible) the laws against homosexuality are thus:

18:22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

If one believes what the bible says, as I do (mostly, but that's another story

), then homosexuality is against God.

It is against God, because God designed man in a particular way.

However, if you believe in "evolution", then God doesn't necessarily enter the picture.

Gays could claim to be a more advanced human state, in the evolutionary path. For example, we no longer need sex to produce babies. Scientists create the fertilized egg in the laboratory and then implant it into the woman. This is called "in vitro fertilization" -- conception without coitus.

Soon, science will be able to construct even the egg and the sperm by joining biochemicals together. So, as scientific knowledge increases, the need for men and women to marry and have sex to produce babies diminishes. And homosexuality could simply be the last sexual stage that the human race experiences before it's all lab work and the species is produced and grown entirely in the test tube, with no particular father nor any particular mother at all. Just biochemicals joined, and people produced. Then, there will be no need for different genders, there will be neither male nor female, just "eunuchs" that procreate by design. i.e. man will be gods.

We will manufacture humans in the factories instead, just like the automobile industry produces cars today.

When white people voted for Obama it was because of what some people called "White Guilt."

Could this be a form of "Straight Guilt?"

I'm very concerned about this "Guilt" trend. Look what we got with Obama.

reply to post by The Old American


Regardless of the contextual mutations of delusion.....

Welcome to humanity again. I can only hope the rest of the relgious can make such a step.. it will atleast help them survive for another few years.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


I think it can present an issue in dorms, honestly, but the military seems to think there's no problem. I don't know if that testimony was just caving to demands of the lobby or if they truly think that, of course it was only senior officials testimony, and not the average soldier in the field.

reply to post by The Old American


the topic of gay marriage is so 20th century...

start campaigning for gays to be equal participants in illegal wars. that's the latest trend.
which just shows how our global society has, finally, moved forward. in the right direction
too. 'fcourse.

Maybe when they get the dose of "reality" of the"contract" and all it entails, they will take a second look at what they are demanding. Same with illegals who want a "path to citizenship". If they want that contract that says the IRS can come and seize their property because they didn't pay tax, well let's see how the "goodies" they want pan out.
Let them experience the pain of divorce, of separation legally, when they hit the 7 year itch.

It is against the bible, therefore, churches should never be forced into performing a God-sanctified spiritual ceremony. Marxism has infiltrated the churches though and I don't see a trend of churches refusing.