New Pa. 9/11 video shows smoke after Flight 93 crash

reply to post by Ghost of America


You know, it could be myriad things until someone decides to have an impartial investigation. I think that whatever the case may be, it probably will not be as ghoulish or fantastical that some make it out to be. I think that when you have a population the size of the US (and the world) it actually becomes easier for myths to create and expand upon themselves.

That being said, I think that if the whole 9/11 truth ends up being rather banal mix of people more concerned about their jobs and reputation than public safety or national security; people who had legitimate grievances against the US government, but who took the retaliation to new levels of blind hatred; a political elite who only care about themselves; and a military industrial complex that needs new ways of getting their bottom line in a business model that only survives so long as there is conflict. So, in a way, it is a conspiracy, but one that seemingly has taken its own course with no single person or small cabal guiding it. I'd accept that as it seems plausible. It still doesn't excuse killing random goat herders in the Hindu Kush and burning down public buildings in Iraq.

reply to post by gentledissident


Using that logic, anything other than you actually traveling back in time to witness the event, is the only true evidence.. Did not expect any form of logical response anyway.

Am I automatically hostile for saying "utter BS" really? maybe someone has their sensitive hat on today.

You are the perfect example... Here is "how you roll"

"No proof of a plane" - Someone provides proof - "That could be doctored evidence"

Then witnesses are bunk, if they dont agree with your theory. If the witness says "I thunk I saw a darn rocket" - That is proof to you. If a witness says "It happened how the Govt. says it did" - Liar, paid agent and obviously delusional spoon fed sheep.. Have I caught onto your "type" yet? Just because someone sees right through the fantasy world BS, that is regurgitated without vetting any facts, does NOT make them hostile... Just logical and intelligent.

Here is the dilemma we are all in now...
Truther have vested SOOOOOO much time and energy into shouting down anyone with opposing views, they lack the character to admit they were wrong. Truthers requirements for facts and evidence have become a thing of fantasy. All witnesses that agree with them, are strong folks speaking out against the Govt. The witnesses that confirm the official story are paid shills. The pictures of anything 9/11 are only facts or evidence if they agree with the truthers stance. If the pictures seem to verify the OS, they must be frauds..

I have not come up with a logical reason, why I come here and even entertain this delusional topic... But, like a moth to a flame, here I am.

I guess it would be the same reason I thought "The Ringer" was a funny movie..

There are ZERO "life points" for finding a conspiracy in everything...

Nanoo nanoo

Originally posted by lkpuede

Originally posted by Sphota
reply to post by lkpuede

 

You know, when I first went online back in 1993, when I was 12, on AOL on a really dull Apple that belonged to my friend's stepdad, my friend and I went straight to the chat rooms to call people *bitches" and "assholes" and "idiots" and "retards" and we made fun of things they would say, and we would say ridiculous things about their mom or who we were.

It was totally ridiculous, puerile and a waste of time. And, at least for me, it got old after two afternoons of it and I didn't rediscover the internet until I was 16 when we got it at our house.

My point? Some people still think logging in and making ridiculous, outrageous or hateful comments is amusing, and I hear you even get paid for it nowadays...that's amazing.

of course it's silly. but is it any more silly then anybody else around here says? all the above was gleamed from the tarded comments made around here all day long and accepted as fact. i try to talk sense, but nobody listens. so whatever...i've decided that i'm gonna be on the side of the nuts.

That's fine, but I don't know why you were singling my comments out for your little holier-than-thou, sarcasm-fest. I believe extraterrestrial life is possible, but I feel that any species that attempts to leave its own atmosphere has probably been met with the same environmental and resource hurdles as humans and thus probably killed themselves off before that. I don't believe in unicorns or possessions or visitations or any of that.

I agree that some things said here are downright nutty and about as unprovable as Moses' burning bush conversation, although the latter at least fits into a moral-laden contextual narrative.

So, if you are trying to equate me with people who have imbalances - the ones who seemingly feel that only tarot readings, Star Trek conventions or pentecostal tongue-speaking are paths to true consciousness - then you are sorely mistaken.

You'd have to be insane to not see the problem with the official story and this whole patriotic circle jerk that has emerged from whatever it is that really happened 10 years ago.

I take that back, not insane, just too busy with TMZ, Everybody Loves Raymond, iPods, Caroline Herrera, the new beer bottles that tell you when they're cold (I thought that's why I had hands?), football lockouts, basketball lockouts, Asian-Italian Fusion bistrot cooking shows, Lindsey Lohan's latest coke-fueled rampage, so-and-so's baby daddy carchase, what some random person put on youtube yesterday and all of that is what gives meaning to people's lives anymore - 9/11 aside.

So, please, peddle your self-inflating irony elsewhere, you are as bad as the people who say Aliens or Satan did 9/11 because of floating buildings and smoke clouds with his face (respectively) because you distract from the grown-up conversation.

Originally posted by Sphota

Originally posted by lkpuede

Originally posted by Sphota
reply to post by lkpuede

 

You know, when I first went online back in 1993, when I was 12, on AOL on a really dull Apple that belonged to my friend's stepdad, my friend and I went straight to the chat rooms to call people *bitches" and "assholes" and "idiots" and "retards" and we made fun of things they would say, and we would say ridiculous things about their mom or who we were.

It was totally ridiculous, puerile and a waste of time. And, at least for me, it got old after two afternoons of it and I didn't rediscover the internet until I was 16 when we got it at our house.

My point? Some people still think logging in and making ridiculous, outrageous or hateful comments is amusing, and I hear you even get paid for it nowadays...that's amazing.

of course it's silly. but is it any more silly then anybody else around here says? all the above was gleamed from the tarded comments made around here all day long and accepted as fact. i try to talk sense, but nobody listens. so whatever...i've decided that i'm gonna be on the side of the nuts.

That's fine, but I don't know why you were singling my comments out for your little holier-than-thou, sarcasm-fest. I believe extraterrestrial life is possible, but I feel that any species that attempts to leave its own atmosphere has probably been met with the same environmental and resource hurdles as humans and thus probably killed themselves off before that. I don't believe in unicorns or possessions or visitations or any of that.

I agree that some things said here are downright nutty and about as unprovable as Moses' burning bush conversation, although the latter at least fits into a moral-laden contextual narrative.

So, if you are trying to equate me with people who have imbalances - the ones who seemingly feel that only tarot readings, Star Trek conventions or pentecostal tongue-speaking are paths to true consciousness - then you are sorely mistaken.

You'd have to be insane to not see the problem with the official story and this whole patriotic circle jerk that has emerged from whatever it is that really happened 10 years ago.

I take that back, not insane, just too busy with TMZ, Everybody Loves Raymond, iPods, Caroline Herrera, the new beer bottles that tell you when they're cold (I thought that's why I had hands?), football lockouts, basketball lockouts, Asian-Italian Fusion bistrot cooking shows, Lindsey Lohan's latest coke-fueled rampage, so-and-so's baby daddy carchase, what some random person put on youtube yesterday and all of that is what gives meaning to people's lives anymore - 9/11 aside.

So, please, peddle your ingratiating, self-inflating irony elsewhere, you are as bad as the people who say Aliens or Satan did 9/11 because of floating buildings and smoke clouds with his face (respectively) because you distract from the grown-up conversation.

i wasn't equating "you" with anything. i was just saying.

and while healthy debate is important to any topic, there are quite a few that actually believe that Some Guy At Home Smoking a Joint somehow came across Deeply Held Secrets of The New Power Elite/The Draconians/The Galactic Federation Of Light, or whatever the Flavor Of The Day is, and decided the best he could do for his country is share it on ATS.

not a single soul here ever said, or at least i didn't notice it, not a soul ever said, "no...while Bush might have been a bit a moron, i'm not really willing to accept that he let thousands of people die in the name of (insert your favorite conspiracy notion here).

couldn't have possibly been a bunch of determined people who had too much time and too much money on their hands.

just as the pyramids couldn't POSSIBLY have been built by a bunch of people in the sand who had nothing better to do with thier time except build impossibly large structures.

couldn't POSSIBLY be that they had done that for so many hundreds of years that they had gotten so good at it, that it was like me kickflipping my skateboard.

a kickflip is not magic. nobody from the Galactic Federation of Light or the Greys or the Lizard People taught me how to do it. i practiced it until i got it right.

but show somebody from some jungle society a kickflip and they will swear it's some type of magic.

point being...i'm done being sane. i'm being just like everybody else. i'm gonna make the most outrageous comments possible, since that's the accepted norm around these parts.

reply to post by DanielCarver


Conspiracies exist in everyday life, are you not privy to the meaning of the word?

As far as the poster you quote, again, I maintain that many people come up with ridiculous implausible narrations of the events of 9/11 and I can commiserate with your bewilderment at how people think, for example, no planes hit the twin towers. OK, I wasn't there, but I'm willing to bet that any one of the 100s of thousands of people there that day would not allow themselves to be confused by group think into saying they saw a plane when there wasn't one.

To clarify, of course there were planes, of course there were people killed, and of course the government lied about what really happened. Maybe using the "government" is too over-arching of a metanymy...postal workers and your local state representative were not involved.

At any rate, you are more than welcome to say, "because so-and-so says flying orbs created holograms of planes that made it look like the twin towers were hit, I do not believe any 9/11 truther". I would understand that stance. It's the same reason I don't believe every thing that that movie Zeitgeist said, because if there are inaccuracies regarding things I actually know about, how am I to then assume they are telling me verifiable facts regarding the things I don't know about?

If that is the case, though, then we must extend that logic to all things, right? In which case, if there are things that also do not add up about the official story (such as Building 7, the miraculous fire-proof passport, the fact that Bush did not leave right away, the lack of wing holes in the pentagon, and so forth) then doesn't it merit as much scrutiny?

reply to post by lkpuede


While Bush might be a bit of a moron (when it comes to empirical facts, he is still a crafty politician). I don't think he would allow so many deaths (but that doesn't mean he needs to be privy to the Project for a New American century, nor does it mean that these money-tempted blowhards with delusions of grandeur who end up being our presidents aren't 100% manipulatable by the highest bidder).

OK, does that version work?


Here's an example. Obama huffs and puffs about Qaddafi, yet Bahrainis are being killed in the street. Explain to me how I cannot then say that Obama would allow people to be killed to maintain strategic oil alliances with Saudi Arabia? Is this not similar? Am I being ridiculous or conspiratorial for uttering this?

reply to post by butcherguy


Yes, That is a plane being hurled into a massive concrete slab....was the ground in PA a massive concrete slab? No. I did google other plane crashes....I did not see any similar to the PA crash, yet most were very similar to each other.

Like I said before, this orginial thread was not about any of this stuff the thread has turned into. It was about the video being a fake. I am tired of arguing over plane or no plane crash, bomb or no bomb, shot down, not shot down. It can all be found in and argued about in another thread. This thread is about the video.

Can we talk about the video now? Please?

Hi,

Can't seem to find any answer to this question, raised a few pages ago.

"posted on 6-9-2011 @ 03:26 PM this post

Originally posted by TXRabbit
was Flt 93 almost out of gas?



Good question,I honestly am not sure how to find out how much gas was left. I doubt it was almost out of gas, I mean, I would think those things hold enough fuel to go for quite a while with out having to fuel up again, but I am not sure.

Any way we could find out how much fuel was left in the tanks?"

From memory, I don't think planes are overfilled. Enough for the journey plus a margin, might be right. I would guess the less weight they carry the more economical they are.

I also expect that the fuel consumption for a particular aircraft is available, somewhere on the web.

So, taking expected flight plan, which should give distance to be flown, divided by consumption, equals fuel started with. Take away the actual distance flown divided by consumption and you have what was in the tank at time of impact. Give or take a margin.

Lest ways, I think that is correct.

Of course, you could just compare expected distance with distance travelled, the difference would give you a percentage of the total fuel remaining..

The odd thing I see, is that the crash site seems to be very near a track/road, whereas the surrounding area looks a bit empty or full of trees. Of course I do not know the area, so that might be very untrue.

It also looks like there is a valley between the crash site and where the film was made, Would that make a difference to distance sound travels/can be felt?

Finally, are not planes specially built/strengthened to fly inverted? How long could a commercial airliner stay in one piece, flying inverted, before it fell out of the sky?

Originally posted by Sphota
reply to post by lkpuede

 

While Bush might be a bit of a moron (when it comes to empirical facts, he is still a crafty politician). I don't think he would allow so many deaths (but that doesn't mean he needs to be privy to the Project for a New American century, nor does it mean that these money-tempted blowhards with delusions of grandeur who end up being our presidents aren't 100% manipulatable by the highest bidder).

OK, does that version work?

edit on 7-9-2011 by Sphota because: (no reason given)

Here's an example. Obama huffs and puffs about Qaddafi, yet Bahrainis are being killed in the street. Explain to me how I cannot then say that Obama would allow people to be killed to maintain strategic oil alliances with Saudi Arabia? Is this not similar? Am I being ridiculous or conspiratorial for uttering this?

edit on 7-9-2011 by Sphota because: example added.

Nope. it don't work for me. the only thing that works for me in this realm, here at ATS, is that this guy is right...almost. It was actually The New World Order/Illuminate/Draconicans (during a lull in their War with Lizard People) who created this False Flag (whatever the hell that is) to distract people from the Galactic Federation Of Light taking over the World. yea that's it. and they just want to make sure they are In Control when ELEnin comes into alignment with Jupiter and Nibaru and causes worldwide distruction....before the worldwide destruction of December 21, 2012. but like i told you, i was teleported to The Kingdom Of The Lizard People to see if we can't get one more Christmas in...you know to engage in rampant and savage human consumerism. I haven't quite figured out why The Lizard People would want to destroy The Most Important Planet In All Of God's Creation, but when the Greys show up at my crib tonight like they always do (cause i'm Special), i'll be sure to ask them. don't think i'll be able to snap off a picture tho...i'll prolly be in an alien/demon induced trance until my friends at the Galactic Federation of Light contact me telepatically and restore my body to normal.

oh...and did i mention that all world leaders are Lizard People? yea, just watch them. when they are being interviewed on television they always look left. that's a Sure Sign they are from the 10th Dimension of The Lizard People. if they look right, that means they are from the Galactic Federation of Light. if they look left, take a drink of water, and THEN look right, well hell, that's a Sure Sign they are the Vangard Of An Invading Force of Aliens/Demons from the 9th Dimension. i know, it's hard to keep up...but you'll catch on.

reply to post by DanielCarver
I see, you are a hostile person. I'll assume you like it and ignore you. Thanks for the confirmation.

The lizard stance is an interesting addition to the no planes theory. Is there a "911 hoax" stamp that can be placed on these posts?

Can we talk about the video now? Please?

reply to post by lilowl53
Certainly.

I see no evidence that the video is a fake.

However, I am completely open to looking at any evidence that might be provided that would either prove or exonerate it as being fake.

Originally posted by lilowl53
reply to post by butcherguy

 

Yes, That is a plane being hurled into a massive concrete slab....was the ground in PA a massive concrete slab? No. I did google other plane crashes....I did not see any similar to the PA crash, yet most were very similar to each other.

Like I said before, this orginial thread was not about any of this stuff the thread has turned into. It was about the video being a fake. I am tired of arguing over plane or no plane crash, bomb or no bomb, shot down, not shot down. It can all be found in and argued about in another thread. This thread is about the video.

Can we talk about the video now? Please?

only if my friends from the Galactic Federation of Light are somehow involved, which they always are.

Originally posted by gentledissident
reply to post by DanielCarver

 

I see, you are a hostile person. I'll assume you like it and ignore you. Thanks for the confirmation.

glad i could clear that up for you. i'm gonna send my friends over to your crib too...just make sure you don't put your aluminum foil helmet on before 11:30 est. that's the only way to avoid being contacted by the aliens/demons.

of course i'm not hostile. i'm rather hostile to silly points of view, of course. i came to this site in sincere hopes of gaining some insight or understanding about certain topics which fly under the radar.

but more and more this once illuminating site is being populated with people who have too much time and too much weed on their hands.

so instead of swimming up stream, and since i like this site (sometimes), i'm just gonna be as outrageous as everyone else. what's wrong with that? everybody gotta choose they side...and i've chosen mine.

We all need to do some studying on history. Just because we live in the USA, we belive that there is no corrupt government. That our president wouldnt allow people to die. Its happened all through out history. The good owe USA is an angel right, i doubt it. We shouldnt belive all the stories the media tells us. There are just to many things from the officiall 9/11 story that just dont add up. Heres a big one for me. They found one of the hijackers passport by the wtc and it wasnt even burned or anything. So that means when the plane hit wtc it flew out his pocket waited for a hole to come in the plane. Then flew out the plane through fire, went out windows with the dust and fell to the ground without being touched. Yet they couldnt find 2 undestructable black boxes that are always found. If im right they were the only two in aviation history not to be found. They even find the ones from planes that crash in the ocean. If you want some real answers watch Blueprint for 9/11 Truth. It has engineers,pilots, and arcitechts from all over who dont agree with official story. It also has interviews with 2 Pentagon Police. It shows the complete flight path of the planes also from different eye witnesses. In my opion it is way better than Loose change because Loose Change has been changed 3times because of errors.

The plane from PA had to be shot down. How else can u explain finding debris from the plane up to 6miles away.

reply to post by lkpuede


OK, well, I have no desire to further these shenanigans with you. Enjoy your pointless show of superiority through a tongue-in-cheek tirade.

You complain that all you find is ludicrous, fantastical hodge-podge here, yet when I try to discuss an issue with you using examples, you limit yourself to continuing your sarcastic rebuttal to some hypothetical, generic poster. This leads me to believe that you have no interest in discussing the issue at hand in a serious way, have thus passed the blame onto those few people who have made rather unrealistic comments, and then, although others would like to have a discussion based in civility and non-mythical narratives, you continue down the same path of immature ramblings and condescension.

Vaya con Dios, mijo.

Originally posted by lkpuede

Originally posted by gentledissident
reply to post by DanielCarver

 

I see, you are a hostile person. I'll assume you like it and ignore you. Thanks for the confirmation.

glad i could clear that up for you. i'm gonna send my friends over to your crib too...just make sure you don't put your aluminum foil helmet on before 11:30 est. that's the only way to avoid being contacted by the aliens/demons.

of course i'm not hostile. i'm rather hostile to silly points of view, of course. i came to this site in sincere hopes of gaining some insight or understanding about certain topics which fly under the radar.

but more and more this once illuminating site is being populated with people who have too much time and too much weed on their hands.

so instead of swimming up stream, and since i like this site (sometimes), i'm just gonna be as outrageous as everyone else. what's wrong with that? everybody gotta choose they side...and i've chosen mine.

Why did you reply in the first person to a post quoting Daniel Carver...are we suffering from identity confusion???

Originally posted by lkpuede

Originally posted by gentledissident
reply to post by DanielCarver

 

I see, you are a hostile person. I'll assume you like it and ignore you. Thanks for the confirmation.

but more and more this once illuminating site is being populated with people who have too much time and too much weed on their hands.






Maybe in your case 2much alcohol!

Maybe you need alittle weed.

My plug-in won't work for it so I looked for it on youtube. I'll embed it for everyone else that might have that problem.







-Alien

Originally posted by Sphota
reply to post by lkpuede

 

OK, well, I have no desire to further these shenanigans with you. Enjoy your pointless show of superiority through a tongue-in-cheek tirade.

You complain that all you find is ludicrous, fantastical hodge-podge here, yet when I try to discuss an issue with you using examples, you limit yourself to continuing your sarcastic rebuttal to some hypothetical, generic poster. This leads me to believe that you have no interest in discussing the issue at hand in a serious way, have thus passed the blame onto those few people who have made rather unrealistic comments, and then, although others would like to have a discussion based in civility and non-mythical narratives, you continue down the same path of immature ramblings and condescension.

Vaya con Dios, mijo.

no i think i'll voy con mis amigos de la Federacion Galactica de la Luz.

anywhoo perhaps you are right and i am wrong. i'm really have misplaced my faith in you guys. perhaps i'm far too practical and logical in my way of thinking to follow these arguments.

if, in fact, you do strongly believe in what you see, why don't you do something about it? it doesn't seem to me that making a post, however entertaining or thought provoking it may be, on ATS is concrete action.

in many ways, the United States is a country of One. it only takes one man or one woman to effect great change in this great nation. so if you are so vehiment that this evidence has somehow be tampered with, why waste your time here? why not go start a petition? why not go to Capitol Hill and lobby your congressman/woman with your evidence? or are you just talking?

it would seem to me you are just talking...unless you have, in fact, taken concrete steps in the mainstream to have your point of view heard?

and then we wind up right back down the rabbit hole. "oh well i did but the New Power Elite/Draconians/Lizard people won't let my point of view be heard."

reply to post by lkpuede


Listen, I'm not one to say that blogging and posting solve any problems. And I'm all but tired of posting on sites because of people like you and people you are mocking.

What would you like me to do about the problems in the world? I haven't done my best, but I'm also locked into a society that requires me to live a certain way, do certain things. I could devote every day to this and build up a body of research beyond what I've already read and then go stand on a street corner. However, I've learned that standing on a street corner with a few friends just makes you look like an idiot.

See, protesting in public spaces has evolved into a sort of mockery and when it has more than a few, people worry it's a riot. The truth is that some posterboard can never hold enough information for a passer-by to read in the few moments they have to read it from their car. It's the same as how a three minute sound-byte festival on FOX or MSNBC will never have enough time to really get into the meat and potatoes of an issue, but we are notw a society with no patience to look at something and learn about it. Forums like this tend to be the only place - maybe aside from meet and greets with coffee and cookies at some guys house - where people can actual discuss issues, for better or for worse.

So, please, feel free to critique what I've done with my time as you whittle away yours. 9/11 investigations, wars, corporate greed, environmental abuses, they are not all easy issues to deal with and I do not have the answer to combat the pay-to-play media arm that runs on more money than I have in my bank account.