For anyone that has any doubt as to the identity of Jesus Christ

reply to post by The GUT

In a bit of a hurry right now, but for example: Paul was basically stating that he lived with a clean conscience towards men--as we're commanded to do--Yeshua was saying that you should seek no man's justification. Both are right, but it's two different concepts. Seriously: You can't see that?

Alright i will concede on this point if this is what you believe he is saying... but again i don't remember Jesus saying anything about a "clean conscience towards men"...

I have read your opinion of Jesus/Yeshua before which is why I asked why you are kicking against the goads. If you have no problem with him how do you feel about this statement, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." ?

Quite ironic that you say that actually... I recently made a thread on that exact theme

www.abovetopsecret.com... Feel free to comment...

I'll be glad to tackle any of this in more depth later if you would be so kind as to make clear just what exactly you do believe about our existence. It's difficult and time-consuming to answer another's assertions without knowing those things.

Lets tackle one thing at a time here... shall we?

For example, do you believe we are a creation? Do you believe that there is such a thing as good & evil? And, you doubt our beliefs (fair enough) but put some faith in astrological signs if I'm understanding you correctly?

Good and evil are both man made concepts....

I don't doubt your beliefs, or anyone elses for that matter. I do question them only to possibly clairify misunderstandings.

As for my faith in "astrological signs" .... Im more or less up in the air on that subject. I don't believe in ones personal "horoscope"... thats just nonsence IMO... Though if you read about a persons "character traits" under their own sign, they can be very accurate.

If you've ever heard of "the big book of birthdays"...if you get a chance, take a look at what it says about your birthdate. It was almost exact when discribing me.

reply to post by Akragon
"For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him." In Luke, Yeshua speaks of the resurrection in response to a question certain Jews had. The key there being, "…for ALL live unto him." (emphasis mine) Not to mention that Jesus is talking about God the Father.

Paul on the other hand--as a human with a sin nature--is speaking of the Lord Jesus and speaking from the point that the resurrection hasn't happened yet. Semantics, I tell ya. That's my take and I could very well be marked wrong on a theological test for all I know, but that wouldn't negate the Word.

As for your OP that was a pretty cool coincidence. Nice job on the post and it's a nice sentiment but it's a case of there's nothing new under the sun.

Your statement there of, "My thanks for the kind words...I can't be swayed in my beliefs my friend" kind of negates me having any reason or much motivation to address it, however I do think you have more of an open mind than you think, or at least profess, and you are a courteous debater, so:

Your thoughts there are basically a new age concept that I'm very familiar with having spent about three years in the heart of that movement, so that's especially an area I feel that I can speak on from personal knowledge/experience.

It's a long story, but it finally boiled down to my time in that community actually became a part of what convinced me that the Holy Bible was true. My new age friends talked a lot about the kind of love you address in your OP but when all was said and done their lives didn't really show it.

Not that that doesn't happen in our "camp" too, but here and there amongst Christians I actually find some who manage to live a compelling life of love through their faith in Yeshua and the Word. Didn't happen with that other crowd. Just my own personal experience and "truth," mileage may vary.

I, like you, am a "questioner" too. That's a good thing for both of us. The Bereans were considered more noble because they didn't just hear the Word and believe, but searched the scriptures to see if they were true.

Peace Friend.

reply to post by The GUT

Your statement there of, "My thanks for the kind words...I can't be swayed in my beliefs my friend" kind of negates me having any reason or much motivation to address it, however I do think you have more of an open mind than you think, or at least profess, and you are a courteous debater

I only say this because of the fact that no one aside from one person has ever been able to show me otherwise. Thus my beliefs at this time are rock solid. Though if something or someone comes along that can show my beliefs to be incorrect i would happily concede.

I will also point out this from my thread... which i also firmly believe.

8.As ye keep the holy Law of Love, which I have given unto you, so shall the Truth be revealed more and more unto you, and the Spirit of Truth which cometh from above shall guide you, albeit through many wanderings, into all Truth, even as the fiery cloud guided the children of Israel through the wilderness.
9. Be faithful to the light ye have, till a higher light is given to you. Seek more light, and ye shall have abundantly; rest not, till ye find.
10. God giveth you all Truth, as a ladder with many steps, for the salvation and perfection of the soul, and the truth which seemeth to day, ye will abandon for the higher truth of the morrow. Press ye unto Perfection.

Your thoughts there are basically a new age concept that I'm very familiar with having spent about three years in the heart of that movement, so that's especially an area I feel that I can speak on from personal knowledge/experience

Quite the contrary, those scriptures i posted were from what is considered Gnostic scripture or even apocryphal.

It's a long story, but it finally boiled down to my time in that community actually became a part of what convinced me that the Holy Bible was true. My new age friends talked a lot about the kind of love you address in your OP but when all was said and done their lives didn't really show it.

Clearly they lacked understanding of the concepts.

Not that that doesn't happen in our "camp" too, but here and there amongst Christians I actually find some who manage to live a compelling life of love through their faith in Yeshua and the Word. Didn't happen with that other crowd. Just my own personal experience and "truth," mileage may vary.

Actually theres many many people in what you call the "new age" movement that live completely according to Jesus... Everyones experience is their own, but you shouldn't generalize. Just as i do not assume all christians have no idea whats in their book, why would you assume that everyone that partakes in this "new age" thing does not live by the teachings of Jesus.

I could also say that "most" christians prefer to assume what is in the bible as opposed to actually reading it for themselves. Or even listen to what is preached to them rather then find out first hand. Though again, as most people know when you "Ass u me" you only make an "ass" out of U, Not Me...

Always loved that saying

reply to post by Akragon




Sorry for butting in, but would you classify Oprah as a 'new age' believer that is living according to Jesus' teachings?

Originally posted by XplanetX
reply to post by Akragon

 

Sorry for butting in, but would you classify Oprah as a 'new age' believer that is living according to Jesus' teachings?

that is easily the weirdest question i've ever been asked...

I don't know what she believes, i know nothing about celebrities or what they do in their lives.

And to be honest, i really don't care either... no disrespect intended of course

reply to post by Akragon



Sorry for asking a weird question. I hope this one is not weird:

Are you in the new age movement?

Originally posted by XplanetX
reply to post by Akragon

 

Sorry for asking a weird question. I hope this one is not weird:

Are you in the new age movement?

No worries, it was just unexpected...

I don't belong to any "movement" religion or afilliation...

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by XplanetX
reply to post by Akragon

 

Sorry for asking a weird question. I hope this one is not weird:

Are you in the new age movement?

No worries, it was just unexpected...

I don't belong to any "movement" religion or afilliation...

Thank you for your response. I am a christian and here is the religion that I follow:

JAS 1:26 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.


The only way that I can possibly keep myself from being polluted by the world is through Jesus. The power and the influence that Satan has in this world is overwhelming and without Christ I am like a reed blowing in the wind.

Originally posted by XplanetX

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by XplanetX
reply to post by Akragon

 

Sorry for asking a weird question. I hope this one is not weird:

Are you in the new age movement?

No worries, it was just unexpected...

I don't belong to any "movement" religion or afilliation...

Thank you for your response. I am a christian and here is the religion that I follow:

JAS 1:26 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.


The only way that I can possibly keep myself from being polluted by the world is through Jesus. The power and the influence that Satan has in this world is overwhelming and without Christ I am like a reed blowing in the wind.

Interesting...

I actually have a few questions for you...

1. You must look after orphans and widows, thats great... does that include the elderly, impared, disfigured, different races, beliefs, cultures...etc etc? And what about those that dislike you, or even hate you? Do you care for them as well?

2. What is it about Jesus that keeps you from being "poluted" by the world?

3. Clearly you watch Tv, and you're likely interested in celebrities and the lastest trends and such (just an assumption, sorry if im wrong)... do you consider that to be "polution" as well?

4. The bible mentions Satan only a few times, and in all circumstances it is very vague in any discription of him.

What makes you believe Satan exists other then the bible of course?

And...

How does Jesus protect you from said "evil" entity's clutches?

reply to post by XplanetX


You wrote:

["The only way that I can possibly keep myself from being polluted by the world is through Jesus. The power and the influence that Satan has in this world is overwhelming and without Christ I am like a reed blowing in the wind."]

This says more about your identity than about Jesus' identity,.... which actually hasn't been that well established throughout this thread.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by XplanetX

 

You wrote:

["The only way that I can possibly keep myself from being polluted by the world is through Jesus. The power and the influence that Satan has in this world is overwhelming and without Christ I am like a reed blowing in the wind."]

This says more about your identity than about Jesus' identity,.... which actually hasn't been that well established throughout this thread.

edit on 21-8-2011 by bogomil because: grammar

Who pissed in your cornflakes today bro?

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by XplanetX

 

You wrote:

["The only way that I can possibly keep myself from being polluted by the world is through Jesus. The power and the influence that Satan has in this world is overwhelming and without Christ I am like a reed blowing in the wind."]

This says more about your identity than about Jesus' identity,.... which actually hasn't been that well established throughout this thread.

edit on 21-8-2011 by bogomil because: grammar

I have for the most part kept my posts related to the thread topic, there is nothing wrong with a little detour if that is what you are suggesting.

Originally posted by XplanetX

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by XplanetX

 

You wrote:

["The only way that I can possibly keep myself from being polluted by the world is through Jesus. The power and the influence that Satan has in this world is overwhelming and without Christ I am like a reed blowing in the wind."]

This says more about your identity than about Jesus' identity,.... which actually hasn't been that well established throughout this thread.

edit on 21-8-2011 by bogomil because: grammar

I have for the most part kept my posts related to the thread topic, there is nothing wrong with a little detour if that is what you are suggesting.

I don't mind detours at all. My question was about the identity of Jesus. Several 'identities' have been presented along the thread.

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by XplanetX

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by XplanetX
reply to post by Akragon

 

Sorry for asking a weird question. I hope this one is not weird:

Are you in the new age movement?

No worries, it was just unexpected...

I don't belong to any "movement" religion or afilliation...

Thank you for your response. I am a christian and here is the religion that I follow:

JAS 1:26 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.


The only way that I can possibly keep myself from being polluted by the world is through Jesus. The power and the influence that Satan has in this world is overwhelming and without Christ I am like a reed blowing in the wind.

Interesting...

I actually have a few questions for you...

1. You must look after orphans and widows, thats great... does that include the elderly, impared, disfigured, different races, beliefs, cultures...etc etc? And what about those that dislike you, or even hate you? Do you care for them as well?

2. What is it about Jesus that keeps you from being "poluted" by the world?

3. Clearly you watch Tv, and you're likely interested in celebrities and the lastest trends and such (just an assumption, sorry if im wrong)... do you consider that to be "polution" as well?

4. The bible mentions Satan only a few times, and in all circumstances it is very vague in any discription of him.

What makes you believe Satan exists other then the bible of course?

And...

How does Jesus protect you from said "evil" entity's clutches?

1. Yes

MT 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


2. Jesus is perfect and he is the perfect role model. By fixing my eyes on him I can keep myself on the right track.

1PE 2:22 "He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth."

2CO 5:16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

PHP 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

PHP 3:15 All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained.


3. No, it only has the potential to be pollution if you allow it to have an influence. I live in the world but I am not a part of it.

COL 2:20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.


4. The bible is not vague about Satan at all, it is very descriptive of who he is and what he has done. I have personally suffered many demonic attacks during my teenage years. I have found that the bible is the only book that has given me direct instructions on how to combat these evil forces.

EPH 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by XplanetX

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by XplanetX

 

You wrote:

["The only way that I can possibly keep myself from being polluted by the world is through Jesus. The power and the influence that Satan has in this world is overwhelming and without Christ I am like a reed blowing in the wind."]

This says more about your identity than about Jesus' identity,.... which actually hasn't been that well established throughout this thread.

edit on 21-8-2011 by bogomil because: grammar

I have for the most part kept my posts related to the thread topic, there is nothing wrong with a little detour if that is what you are suggesting.

I don't mind detours at all. My question was about the identity of Jesus. Several 'identities' have been presented along the thread.

All of which I have rebutted.

Originally posted by XplanetX

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by XplanetX

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by XplanetX

 

You wrote:

["The only way that I can possibly keep myself from being polluted by the world is through Jesus. The power and the influence that Satan has in this world is overwhelming and without Christ I am like a reed blowing in the wind."]

This says more about your identity than about Jesus' identity,.... which actually hasn't been that well established throughout this thread.

edit on 21-8-2011 by bogomil because: grammar

I have for the most part kept my posts related to the thread topic, there is nothing wrong with a little detour if that is what you are suggesting.

I don't mind detours at all. My question was about the identity of Jesus. Several 'identities' have been presented along the thread.

All of which I have rebutted.

In a context like this, with no objective reference-points a claimed 'rebuttal' will naturally be as subjective, as what initially was 'rebutted'. Such subjectivism is inherent in the whole faith-concept, which doesn't operate from objective procedure (and let me hasten to add, that there's nothing 'wrong' with choosing a faith-position, with all that implies).

But the outcome will eventually be a 'yes, no, yes, no' contest, if the contributors are determined. Which inside the category, in this case christians and those relating to the bible, will lead to controverses. Controverses with no seemingly purpose, as subjectivism IS about individual choices, and the result will be a shouting match or as in the long sad history of the militant christianities violence directed not only towards non-believers, but also towards 'heretics'.

(Just as Sovjet and China for years quibbled about the 'right' interpretation of communism).

And apart from the impact the militant christianities have had on mankind in general (amongst some christians unfortunately still manifesting in extra-parliamentary invasive attitudes), the inner christian/bible-relating dissenting is by non-believers NOT evaluated from finer doctrinal points.

We, the non-believers, can see the futility of arguing on something, which can't be settled 'doctrinally', we can see the violence latent in christian elitism and we react pragmatically. The 'good guys' in religion are for us those, who represent co-existence versions of their religion.

Furthermore you have presented a personal life-choice of 'purity', i.e. 'non-polluted' by whatever flaws cosmos has (and obviously including 'original sin' as a determining factor in that flawedness); a personal choice you regularly try to push as THE way of living.

Well, we're not all made like you, and most of us don't share your premises.

And then.....while you are very informed about your own religion and the special branch of it you have chosen, some of us are, without being expert bible cherry-pickers, ALSO informed on the basic optional ideologies in judeo-christianity. And where you have taken up one part of the DSS, I will take up another. The war scroll, an expression of a fascist ideology so atrocious, that its brutal elitism is directly comparable to e.g. nazi-ideology.

To what extent you are aware of this connection to the ideology of the zaddikite sect (from where the war scroll originated) and to what extent you follow it, is not up to me to say. But there are so many outer similarities between what you present and the zaddikites, that I can't consider it a coincidence.

That YOUR mythological manual (and in your interpretation) also shows a similar DIRECT ideological connection to the zaddikites can be seen at a glance.

The 'Nasi' (one of the Melchizedeks), leader of the 'sons of light' fighting 'darkness' (meaning anything not fitting with this ideology) is also the one, who gave Paulus the 'authority' for his version of the hijacked Jesus-movement.

As you know, I have on several occasions written about self-proclaimed authority, and you or another christian have tried to deflect my strong objection to such self-proclaimed authority 'tactically' by declaring the subject trite or overused.

But let me assure you, that the subject of self-proclaimed authority never will be trite or overused as long as the real danger of it exists. Maybe not all non-believers are aware of the ideological roots of what you seemingly are proposing, but then it's about time that it becomes part of public awareness.

Hijacking and sugar-coating the Jesus gestalt isn't enough to make your religious direction housebroken, because just under the surface is another ideology rearing its ugly head. An ideology mankind doesn't need and increasingly doesn't want.

I used to see lots of Jesus look alikes when I wandered down the river Thames at an evening. They hang about under bridges.

So called JC if he ever existed outside of folk law or someones imagination was probably a half loony who stood up and go the attention of some silly sheep. You getn the types today in shopping high streets or the more sophistcated con artist they call evangelists!

JC stuff is bottom line toilet!

reply to post by bogomil

But there are so many outer similarities between what you present and the zaddikites, that I can't consider it a coincidence.

The same sort of people who brought us the earlier Apocalypse, as in the destruction of Jerusalem (back in 70 AD), are hard at work trying to do a repeat with the poor people who got conned into moving to Palestine and calling themselves Israel. The Apocolyptics, is what I call them, and much to be not tolerated (meaning the ideology) in my view.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by bogomil

 

But there are so many outer similarities between what you present and the zaddikites, that I can't consider it a coincidence.

The same sort of people who brought us the earlier Apocalypse, as in the destruction of Jerusalem (back in 70 AD), are hard at work trying to do a repeat with the poor people who got conned into moving to Palestine and calling themselves Israel. The Apocolyptics, is what I call them, and much to be not tolerated (meaning the ideology) in my view.

edit on 22-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

EXACTLY.

And while there already has manifested much valid opposition to OP on this thread, this perspective is quite important to add also. I have formerly here mentioned the self-fullfilling options, a subject which ofcourse aren't popular amongst pro-militant christians (some of whom I hope will reconsider their pro-militant attitudes and direct their support to co-existing christianity-options).

If you 'write' the doctrines and also have a (to some extent) possibility of creating a practical scenario in social reality, the self-fullfilling stands out, once you know where to look.

A contemporary parallel example is the Stalinist cosmetics on the five-year economical plans. It took the total bankrupcy of this system to see, what was behind the surface of self-fullfilling (for the casual observer).

The best thing to do is to expose such ideological elitism for what it really is. Hoping that the christianities eventually will become aware of, that the toned-down dissenting manifesting in a common front (when that is convenient) is self-defeating.

Letting the small, but very articulate minority of the invasive elitist christians become the spearhead and public image of the christianities isn't really that wise. And my opinion on this isn't based on personal sympathy or antagonism. I just can't see the sense in being represented by the sandbox-bullies in any context.

Personally I have never met one of the really hard-core christian elitists eye-to-eye, but only fairly co-existence, get-along christians, whom I have absolutely no quarrel with. And having spent my entire grown-up life amongst the ideological fringe of mainstream culture I know, that no ideology can be promoted by cosmetics or violence, only by pragmatic results.

reply to post by bogomil



You often refer to christian's as elitist's, why is that?

The only difference between a believer and a non-believer is the holy spirit, which is a gift from God. It is not something to be attained by any human work.

If Christ was not raised from the dead then we are to be pitied above all others as we live a life of sacrifice and repentance for nothing.


1CO 15:12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.


We are considered 'scum of the earth':

1Cor4:12 We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; when we are slandered, we answer kindly. Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world.


The world thinks we are foolish, we boast not of ourselves but of Christ:

1CO 1:26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."


If we boast of Christ and not of ourselves, how can we be considered elitist?

Do you consider us elitist because we believe that anyone not in Christ will not have eternal life? If so, why should this bother you since you do not believe in Jesus anyway?