For anyone that has any doubt as to the identity of Jesus Christ

reply to post by jmdewey60


Well that's the message in Judaism as well. Do good and what not. Just we explain it in different details.

reply to post by XplanetX


I would like to have a discussion with you. Could you perhaps conjure up a coherent thought instead of throwing scripture at me.

The OT is the Jewish Scripture. The NT is revisionist theology and I've already shown you one of the examples with the virgin birth. I even broke it down for you as it was written in Hebrew, you know, the Jewish language. It's the Christians who twist the scripture to get Jesus to miraculously appear in the OT.

I know you feel like Jesus is your Messiah; but, please make something of an argument instead of throwing meaningless verses. We'd all hate for you to be associated as the archtypical Christian who just buries their head in the sand when confronted with a reasonable argument.

There's even a Jew in this discussion who even says the prophecy I provided is bunk as well. It is THEIR God and scripture after all.

Originally posted by novastrike81
reply to post by XplanetX

 

I would like to have a discussion with you. Could you perhaps conjure up a coherent thought instead of throwing scripture at me.

The OT is the Jewish Scripture. The NT is revisionist theology and I've already shown you one of the examples with the virgin birth. I even broke it down for you as it was written in Hebrew, you know, the Jewish language. It's the Christians who twist the scripture to get Jesus to miraculously appear in the OT.

I know you feel like Jesus is your Messiah; but, please make something of an argument instead of throwing meaningless verses. We'd all hate for you to be associated as the archtypical Christian who just buries their head in the sand when confronted with a reasonable argument.

There's even a Jew in this discussion who even says the prophecy I provided is bunk as well. It is THEIR God and scripture after all.

edit on 19-8-2011 by novastrike81 because: (no reason given)

I certainly mean no disrespect. You after all are a natural branch in the olive tree while I am merely grafted in. Have you ever asked yourself why rabbi's and jews convert to christianity? Do they also have a false understanding of their own language? Or do they simply misunderstand their own scriptures and they are tricked into believing that Jesus is the messiah? Maybe, just maybe, they have been given some insight into their own scriptures and realise the messiah has been in front of them all along.

Please forgive me for posting more scripture.


PS 118:22 The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone;

PS 118:23 the LORD has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes.


AC 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people! If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. He is

" `the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the capstone. '

AC 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

AC 4:13 When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

Originally posted by XplanetX
I certainly mean no disrespect. You after all are a natural branch in the olive tree while I am merely grafted in.

Thank you? I'm not sure what that means but it sounds nice.

Have you ever asked yourself why rabbi's and jews convert to christianity?

Sure I have. Have you ever asked yourself why Christians convert to Atheism, or Deism, or Buddhism, or any other religion?

Do they also have a false understanding of their own language? Or do they simply misunderstand their own scriptures and they are tricked into believing that Jesus is the messiah? Maybe, just maybe, they have been given some insight into their own scriptures and realise the messiah has been in front of them all along.

Maybe they realized that what is written in the Christian bible is mostly nonsense. To each his own I suspect. It may not be nonsense to you, that's fine, cause I used to believe it too.

Please forgive me for posting more scripture.

I snipped the scriptures. I don't care if Christians quote scripture, just put some substance into it. I can obviously read what it says but if you have no applicational purposes behind what your quote, well then I have no idea what message you're trying to convey.

reply to post by novastrike81




I deliberately convey very little when I quote scripture as I believe that in due time God himself will reveal the truth to someone if they have the heart to seek him.


MT 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

reply to post by novastrike81




In regards to the natural branches of the olive tree, please go back a page and read the letter written to the Roman church by Paul.

reply to post by novastrike81




It can be explained by Jesus why many of his followers would turn away from him. The following is a very long passage of scripture but it is very important. Many people do not count the cost of following Christ and initially follow him blindly.


MT 13:18 "Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."

MT 13:24 Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

MT 13:27 "The owner's servants came to him and said, `Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'

MT 13:28 " `An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, `Do you want us to go and pull them up?'

MT 13:29 " `No,' he answered, `because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "

MT 13:31 He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches."

MT 13:33 He told them still another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough."

MT 13:34 Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet:

"I will open my mouth in parables,
I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."

MT 13:36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."

MT 13:37 He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

MT 13:40 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

MT 13:44 "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.

MT 13:45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it.

MT 13:47 "Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

MT 13:51 "Have you understood all these things?" Jesus asked.
"Yes," they replied.

MT 13:52 He said to them, "Therefore every teacher of the law who has been instructed about the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old."



I bolded the section that illustrates Jesus fulfilling another OT scripture.

reply to post by XplanetX

Hahahahahaha. The Jewish people twist their own scriptures in order to deny Jesus is the son of God. They have to do this, otherwise they are forced to recognise him as their King. God will leave them with no choice in the future anyway.

Why do you believe Jews twist their own scripture around to hide away from Jesus? This is like a Muslim claiming both Jews and Christians are twisting their scriptures around to hide from Muhammad.

reply to post by XplanetX


religion is terrorism...

Originally posted by ManOfGod267
reply to post by XplanetX

 

Hahahahahaha. The Jewish people twist their own scriptures in order to deny Jesus is the son of God. They have to do this, otherwise they are forced to recognise him as their King. God will leave them with no choice in the future anyway.

Why do you believe Jews twist their own scripture around to hide away from Jesus? This is like a Muslim claiming both Jews and Christians are twisting their scriptures around to hide from Muhammad.

It is clear that Jesus is the messiah (This comes from the jews own Torah). Please refer to my original post.

The Muslims have a book called the Qu'ran that has been passed on to them from Muhammad. Muhammad claimed that an angel by the name of 'Gabriel' came to him and told him to introduce new teachings to his people.


The following passage was written by Paul more than 500 years before Muhammad:


GAL 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

reply to post by XplanetX


Well I can respectfully disagree with your views on the Messiah concept. Since we clearly have been reading different bibles.

Originally posted by ManOfGod267
reply to post by XplanetX

 

Well I can respectfully disagree with your views on the Messiah concept. Since we clearly have been reading different bibles.

...and I respectfully disagree with your views.

Peace.

According to thread title I qualify for responding directly to OP.

I am amongst "anyone" and I am doubting the identity of the character known as J.C.

Somewhat to late now, the proper thread title would better have been: "For anyone ........etc, who ALSO believe in a circle-argumented mythology, with self-fullfilling prophecies and a confused interpretation-methodology".

To which I personally can add some bible-inconsistencies being outside the present topic.

Originally posted by The GUT
It's my assertion that the Bible is the only document extant that accurately describes our world to this very day. It's the grand unifying theory--nothing else can touch it--and when overlaid on our world is an accurate and perfect fit.

My meme: From NWO to UFOs to Climate Craziness to War and Man's inhumanity to Man it's all in there.

Not to mention things like predicting that Israel would be a nation again someday. No matter what your belief you gotta admit that was a long shot.

You may be in for some un-assertion soon.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by The GUT
It's my assertion that the Bible is the only document extant that accurately describes our world to this very day. It's the grand unifying theory--nothing else can touch it--and when overlaid on our world is an accurate and perfect fit.

My meme: From NWO to UFOs to Climate Craziness to War and Man's inhumanity to Man it's all in there.

Not to mention things like predicting that Israel would be a nation again someday. No matter what your belief you gotta admit that was a long shot.

You may be in for some un-assertion soon.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I like how the more intelligent of the deniers are having to admit to prophecy fulfillment by calling them self-fulfilling.

It means they recognize the blueprint--and I'm sure that starts to get scary for ya--and it's the ONLY alternate explanation that can be proffered.

But where is the self-fulfilling prophecy of the other major religions and/or the rest of society in general? Why does this particular little "fairytale" have such lasting profundity? How did--as predicted--against all odds--Israel become a nation again against the backdrop painted so accurately so long ago?

Nope. The mid-east remains a hot spot--as predicted--because a spiritual war rages. Something happened 2,0000 + years ago that ordinary explanations can't account for.

A few men & women, mostly uneducated, scattered, afraid, actively persecuted, their Teacher--their Leader--brutally mocked and killed before their eyes...and yet they LIT UP and turned the world upside down. They faced the sword--and lions even--rather than deny what they knew to be truth.

It only sounds like a fairytale because someone worked very, very hard to make it seem so. A careful look reveals the framework of that diabolical plan however.

Bogomil you old smelly debauched husk of a bohemian--I love ya. The same thing could be pretty much said of me: Smelly, debauched, old bohemian. The old man me that is. The new man bumbles and stumbles after a new and worthy image.

Against all odds, it's true my friend. Give Paul another look in the light of literary criticism. His "voice" never wavers (or waivers for that matter.) It's obvious to the astute reader that he existed...and possessed rare character, bravery, and conviction. He's a good starting place to take one last look. Keep as open a mind as you can and give it one more perusal, Amigo. I bet you it will talk to you. If you do and it does: Listen.

Peace to you, bogomil, your tenacity is admirable, but you're on the wrong team. (--------) That's a hug 'cause I know you need one earth-brother.

reply to post by The GUT


You wrote:

["I like how the more intelligent of the deniers are having to admit to prophecy fulfillment by calling them self-fulfilling."]

Guess I belong to the 'deniers'. But us deniers are not operating with a de facto 'reality', but with the textual claims of it. The various characters in the bible (and other religious manuals) can be analysed from such a perspective; just as a scientific hypothesis, which eventually may turn out to be wrong.

Quote: ["It means they recognize the blueprint--and I'm sure that starts to get scary for ya--and it's the ONLY alternate explanation that can be proffered."]

As said above, looking at a 'blueprint' doesn't mean it's accepted as 'true' in any sense. Just that it's a 'blueprint'. And I've seen to many such to be 'scared' of them anymore. As Spike Jones said: "People are funnier than anybody".

Quote: ["But where is the self-fulfilling prophecy of the other major religions and/or the rest of society in general?"]

First of all. The self-fullfilling perspective has hardly started. And until then competitors on the prophecy market are uninteresting.

Quote: [" Why does this particular little "fairytale" have such lasting profundity."]

Probably for the same reasons as tao'ism, buddhism and hinduism have.

Quote: ["How did--as predicted--against all odds--Israel become a nation again against the backdrop painted so accurately so long ago?"]

And similarly, why have so many prophecies failed? Statistically some of them would turn out to be correct, and most fail. It's just waiting long enough.

Quote: ["Nope. The mid-east remains a hot spot--as predicted--because a spiritual war rages. Something happened 2,0000 + years ago that ordinary explanations can't account for."]

'Something' also happened elsewhere, which can't be explained. Making a comparative study of it though gives an overall situation, not especially supporting the bible's theist doctrines.

Quote: ["A few men & women, mostly uneducated, scattered, afraid, actively persecuted, their Teacher--their Leader--brutally mocked and killed before their eyes...and yet they LIT UP and turned the world upside down. They faced the sword rather than deny what they knew to be truth."]

Very touching, but religious persecutions have taken place for a long time in all contexts, and self-fullfilling prophecies don't 'prove' anything about the associated doctrines.

Quote: ["It only sounds like a fairytale because someone worked very, very hard to make it seem so. A careful look reveals the framework of that diabolical plan however."]

That depends on what side of the conspiracy fence you are. Insofar I should make an educated guess on the matter here, I would say that Jahveh is a deranged demon, i.e. THE bad guy.

Quote: ["Bogomil you old smelly debauched husk of a bohemian--I love ya."]

I'm not the emotional type, but well, .....you're not such a bad one yourself, dexterous and agile handler of exquisite chopsticks.

Quote: ["Give Paul another look in the light of literary criticism."]

I detest Paulus. Maybe we can take it up, when this thread is lost anyway. One point to you for hitting bull's eye at first go. I hoped no less from you.

reply to post by The GUT

Give Paul another look in the light of literary criticism. His "voice" never wavers (or waivers for that matter.)

On the contrary my friend... He waivers.... Oh he waivers....

Paul
8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

Jesus
37Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.


Paul
20Avoiding this, that no man should blame us in this abundance which is administered by us:
21Providing for honest things, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.

1 cor 10
33Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

Jesus
15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Paul
9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


Jesus

No need for a quote in this circumstance, we know how he treated everyone including women, as equals.

Yes, paul is something. Not only does he regularly contradict Jesus, but he even contradicts himself in some cases.

Oh yes.... He does waiver

reply to post by Akragon

The first half of your argument--and thanks for taking the time to compile that--is semantics. The ideas being expressed and contrasted by you aren't the same things imo. You possibly haven't read enough to see that, or maybe read with your fault-finding glasses on. I know you have a fairly decent intellect so I'm not sure why those passages seem so contradictory to you.

The second part--in reference to women--you just state that Jesus felt differently about the matter. So that's a fairly nebulous argument.

However, I have struggled--I admit--with those passages from Paul as well. I do believe that God's natural order--as instituted--is perfect and that men & women have different though equal roles that balance very beautifully in their proper context. I've seen it when it works that way and it produces outstanding fruit (happy, adjusted children to name one.)

Why dost though kick so hard against the goads, Akragon?

reply to post by The GUT

The first half of your argument--and thanks for taking the time to compile that--is semantics. The ideas being expressed and contrasted by you aren't the same things imo.

Perhaps you'd like to explain what you mean? Would you not say the ideas expressed in the passages i posted contradict one another?

You possibly haven't read enough to see that, or maybe read with your fault-finding glasses on.

Funny you said that because though i find issues with paul, i do not/have not found any with Jesus.

I know you have a fairly decent intellect so I'm not sure why those passages seem so contradictory to you.

Im wondering why you do not actually?

The second part--in reference to women--you just state that Jesus felt differently about the matter. So that's a fairly nebulous argument.

I made that statement because i assume people have read about Jesus, considering this is a religious thread... not to mention the title. Its not an arguement... If what is written about him is true, he treated everyone including women equally. That is a fact, according to scripture at least.

However, I have struggled--I admit--with those passages from Paul as well.

My point exactly.... What im trying to understand at this point is why you don't see these statements as contradictory?

I do believe that God's natural order--as instituted--is perfect and that men & women have different though equal roles that balance very beautifully in their proper context. I've seen it when it works that way and it produces outstanding fruit (happy, adjusted children to name one.)

well according to paul, women are beneath you...

Why dost though kick so hard against the goads, Akragon?

Its in my nature to question things that don't make sense to me...

Look up Aquarious personality

reply to post by Akragon

In a bit of a hurry right now, but for example: Paul was basically stating that he lived with a clean conscience towards men--as we're commanded to do--Yeshua was saying that you should seek no man's justification. Both are right, but it's two different concepts. Seriously: You can't see that?

I have read your opinion of Jesus/Yeshua before which is why I asked why you are kicking against the goads. If you have no problem with him how do you feel about this statement, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." ?

I'll be glad to tackle any of this in more depth later if you would be so kind as to make clear just what exactly you do believe about our existence. It's difficult and time-consuming to answer another's assertions without knowing those things.

For example, do you believe we are a creation? Do you believe that there is such a thing as good & evil? And, you doubt our beliefs (fair enough) but put some faith in astrological signs if I'm understanding you correctly?