Anders Breivik and "hidden" Freemasons

Originally posted by OnTheLevel213

When your theory requires you to disregard the only available evidence and invent others out of whole cloth, that should raise red flags.

No. The red flag is raised when the term "crazy" is used to explain the deed. Because it suggests we stop looking behind the events. If he was just crazy, what more is there to know?

For the record, I should reiterate that his self-conferred title of Knight Templar was not connected to any Masonic body.

You can reiterate all you will. But, shear logic suggests that you could not know the operations of all masonic bodies on earth "regular and clandestine". And even if you were the Supreme Grand Master of all the lodges on earth, and were kept fully informed on all the doings in each lodge daily, had your spies in all clandestine offshoots, would you be expected to tell us anyway?

Nay, I suggest you but practice the art of masonic misdirection, to ridicule reasonable inquiry, to deflect any attempt to "guess" at the truth that may lay hidden behind the screens of the compass and the square.

If Anders Breivik was a Freemason who was participating in some ritual that led to this event, how many more Freemasons out there may be involved in similar things?

You never knew of Anders Breivik before he pulled the trigger and called on his cell phone to tell of his deeds, so what makes you think you could know of other Freemason activities before they decide to strike and make themselves known also?

Anders Breivik was thumbing his nose at Freemasonry. He was saying "I walk among you" and "here are my deeds" , "judge me if you dare." And moreover, "there are more of me, walking among you" ! That's like the Cult of Mithras infecting masonry.

That's a pretty powerful guy.IMHO

He does not care about death. So, there's nothing anyone can do to him. Strange enough, when he went to Russia, the guide there said he seemed concerned about the leftover radiation from Chernobyl, and how it might affect him. Maybe the guards should put some radioactive kryptonite in his cell to reduce some of his superpowers.

That might get him to talk.

Just came accross this source on Knights Templar:

The Grand Master of the Knights Templar, Beaujeu, a predecessor of Jacques de Molay, visited de Molay during his imprisonment. At de Molay's request, he was to open the grave of de Molay's uncle and bring out a chest containing the documents of the Knights Templar. These were transported to Scotland (Lennings, "Encyklopaedie der Freimaurerei", Leipzig, 1863). The Swedish freemasons still keep some property left behind by the Knights Templar (Henning Melander, "Frimurarnas hemlighet" / "The Secret of the Freemasons", Stockholm, 1916, p. 20). pg.50


The American masonic leader Albert Pike wrote in his book "Morals and Dogma": "The Order lived on, under different names and headed by unknown masters, and revealed its existence only to those who, by passing through a series of degrees, had proved themselves worthy of being entrusted with the dangerous secret." pg.50-51


After Jacques de Molay, the leadership passed on to Jean-Marc Larmenius, who was initiated into the secrets of the order by de Molay while the grand master was in prison. Larmenius, who came from "the Holy Land", saved himself by leaving France. In 1324, Thomas Theobald was chosen as the new underground grand master. The last grand master known to us was Bernard Raymond Fabre- Palaprat (1804-1838), who was also a freemason of the Scottish Rite. All this is according to a secret document, "Larmenius Charta", which became available in 1804 (Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, "The Temple and the Lodge", London, 1998, p 114). In this year, Napoleon legalized the Order of the Knights Templar. The freemasons themselves have actually admitted that de Molay had time to pass on his secrets to his successor before he was burned and that the successor managed to found secret lodges in Paris and Stockholm (Peter Partner, "The Murdered Magicians: The Templars and their Myth", Oxford, 1982, pp. 110-114). pg.51

Source:
www.slideshare.net...

We find here the claim that the "Knights Templar" founded "secret lodges" in Scandinavia. So, did Anders leave his own Norwegian Regular Lodge, and continue his advancement in one of these Secret Lodges? Hmm...

Norway Freemasons follow the Swedish Freemason rites etc...

How can we ever find out a secret?

Looks even more likely that he was Knighted by some secret lodge.

reply to post by DRAZIW


It will blow your mind even more once you realize that the image on the Shroud of Turin is probably Jacques DeMolay… (The wife of his right-hand-man was the earliest known owner of the shroud. No coincidence.)

reply to post by JoshNorton


It is a coincidence IMO . Considering it is rumored that they were huge treaure hunters for those kinds of stuff.

Originally posted by DRAZIW

Just came accross this source on Knights Templar:

The American masonic leader Albert Pike wrote in his book "Morals and Dogma": "The Order lived on, under different names and headed by unknown masters, and revealed its existence only to those who, by passing through a series of degrees, had proved themselves worthy of being entrusted with the dangerous secret." pg.50-51

Nice of you to leave off the last, and most important, sentence in that quote. From page 821 (not 50-51):

The modern Orders that style themselves Templars have assumed a name to which they have not the shadow of a title.

reply to post by DRAZIW

"The fact remains that there is no trace of chivalric degrees in Freemasonry prior to Ramsay's Oration."
- Stephen Dafoe

With my recent ample amount of free time I have been putting some time into researching early Masonic Templary. There are many theories of Masonic Templary creation and evolution, but the fact remains in the first few decades after the establishment of the Grand Lodge of England there was no discussion of the Knights Templar ever being connected to Freemasonry.

The first person, it is said, to ever connect to Freemasonry to a knighthood, was Andrew Michael Ramsay. It should be noted that in his famous Oration, he linked Freemasonry to the Knights of St. John, not the Knights Templar. Since that time many Masons established various Rites and Orders based upon a history they made up. Some of the most notable theories are: Order of Christ in Portugal theory, the Larmenius Charter theory which says that John Mark Larmenius was the Grand Master after de Molay, the perpetuation myth (see Swedish Rite's 8th degree called Master of the Temple) where de Molay's nephew Beaujeu took his uncles ashes from France and buried them in Stockholm, the Robert the Bruce and the Battle of Bannockburn Legend, the d'Audmont Legend, and the perpeuation theory of the Rite of Strict Observance and the Superiores Incogniti propogated by von Hund in Germany.

If you are interested I did a paper on the Rite of Strict Observance and Ramsay's Oration on my blog.

I would also like to pull another quote from Stephen Dafoe's book "Compasses and the Cross":

"We Freemasons can be a funny lot. Never content with simply being part of an organization that has survived and thrived for three centuries, we are constantly searching for evidence that the Masonic Craft must stem from some ancient source."

A great book to read, particularly since he cites every source at the end of each chapter. Very thorough history of the Crusading Knights Templar including the history according to more than William of Tyre (the most widely used historian) such as Michael the Syrian.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
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Nice of you to leave off the last, and most important, sentence in that quote. From page 821 (not 50-51):

The modern Orders that style themselves Templars have assumed a name to which they have not the shadow of a title.

Well, while we're at it, one has to read all of Pike, huh...

QUOTE:

The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry. The whole body of the Royal and Sacerdotal Art was hidden so carefully, centuries since, in the High Degrees, as that it is even yet impossible to solve many of the enigmas which they contain. It is well enough for the mass of those called Masons, to imagine that all is contained in the Blue Degrees; and whoso attempts to undeceive them will labor in vain, and without any true reward violate his obligations as an Adept. Masonry is the veritable Sphinx, buried to the head in the sands heaped round it by the ages.
-- Albert Pike , 33 degree Mason !

The problem with this, of course, is that Pike is saying that masonry essentially deals in "deception",

the deliberate misdirection of "perception", and he that would believe any word from a mason, is probably just a "fool."

This is why before anyone enters Freemasonry, he should have a good grounding in his own religion. Masonry only illustrates a checkered floor with white squares and black squares, but having no belief behind them, it does not specify to the candidate what means white and what infers black. That, the candidate must determine for himself, from his own religion.

If masons will deceive their own brothers, who are initiated fellows like them, comrades in arms, and their true mates, how much more so will they deceive those outside the craft?

But, this "art of deception" , as I pointed out, originated from that old "Cult of Mithras", which disguises itself everywhere it turns up, as something else. It was a Pirate cult for a reason. Just as the Pirate would hoist the colors of the ship aproaching, to deceive them into thinking they are their mates, and switch that flag to the Jolly Roger just before the breach, the same method is the art of the Mithraists.

Basically, Pike is saying simply, that anyone who is a Master Mason, but has not gone beyond that 3rd degree, knows nothing about Freemasonry, for he has only received the "deception" , and any attempt to convince them that they were just deceived will fail. Because the Adepts of Freemasonry have done such a good job of twisting their minds, that they cannot perceive otherwise in their current state.

Freemasonry is about altering the mind. Anders Breivik's mind was severely altered, to the point where he laughed while killing the innocent souls. It's not that he's crazy, it's that his world view has been dramatically altered, and he no longer sees people as human.

If a priest gets him to repent, then he may break down in tears, and finally realize what he has done.

reply to post by DRAZIW

No, Pike was meaning those who deserve to be misled will be misled. We do not deceive one another. That is just absurd. Truth is the first lesson we are taught in Freemasonry and thus the foundation of everything else taught in Freemasonry.

There is much to learn and study in the Craft degrees. You seem to be taking too much out of his words and assuming too much.

Freemasonry is about bettering the man and by that, the community.

Anders was a nut job and a bad apple. His religious intolerance is not indicative of all Freemasonry...this includes his mindset and ideology. He is a sociopath.

Originally posted by DRAZIW
Well, while we're at it, one has to read all of Pike, huh...

Sure, it also helps if you understand Pike as well and the audience he was writing for. Masonic Light posted this earlier and explains the confusion you seem to be experiencing regarding this quote:

Pike was actually repeating what was a popular fiction at the time.

The quote (about the Blue Degrees being the outer portico of the Temple) comes from Chapter 30 of Morals and Dogma, which is the lecture to the scottish Rite's 30th degree, Knight Kadosh, which is the Scottish Rite version of the Knight Templar degree.

At the time he wrote Morals and Dogma, Pike believed that Masonry came from the Knights Templar. Since the Templars are not mentioned in the first three degrees, Pike concluded that the true meaning and purposes were reserved for the high degrees, which do in fact talk about the Templars.

The only problem with that, of course, is that Pike was wrong. After Gould published his "History of Freemasonry", Pike retracted his earlier statements, but this is either ignored by anti-Masons, or is not even known to them. Gould conclusively showed that Freemasonry originated with the stonemason guilds of medieval England and Scotland, not with French crusaders. Pike was honest enough to admit his previous mistakes, but anti-Masons generally are not.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by DRAZIW
Well, while we're at it, one has to read all of Pike, huh...

Sure, it also helps if you understand Pike as well and the audience he was writing for. Masonic Light posted this earlier and explains the confusion you seem to be experiencing regarding this quote:

There's no confusion. I know what Pike was saying. I understand it perfectly. I could try to explain it. But, like Pike says, I'd be wasting my time. Remember, Pike was 33 degree. The highest Prince of Masonry. There are "two" statues of him inside the 33rd lodge. Two ! Everybody else gets just one statue. He, more than most, knew what he was talking about. Even with the few false facts in his knowledge. It's not the facts that is in the message that I point to, it's the "attitude" that's the key. The acceptance of intentional misleading as a tool of the craft.

Originally posted by DRAZIW
There's no confusion. I know what Pike was saying.

You are obviously incorrect in both statements otherwise you would have not used the above quote to try and make the point you attempted.

I understand it perfectly. I could try to explain it. But, like Pike says, I'd be wasting my time.

No, I insist, make your point. I always enjoy when a non-Mason tries to explain Masonry to me by using poor sources (gospeltruth), invented history (the Supreme Court) and misunderstood Pike quotes.

Remember, Pike was 33 degree. The highest Prince of Masonry. There are "two" statues of him inside the 33rd lodge. Two ! Everybody else gets just one statue.

Wow! He was a 33rd Degree!?! Tell me, how does his degree and membership in a side order in the Southern Jurisdiction matter to anyone in the Northern Jurisdiction or anyone not in the Scottish Rite at all?

He, more than most, knew what he was talking about. Even with the few false facts in his knowledge.

Like the one you quoted. It helps if you actually know what he was writing about in context.

It's not the facts that is in the message that I point to, it's the "attitude" that's the key. The acceptance of intentional misleading as a tool of the craft.

I like how you conveniently ignore that he retracted his assertion and apologized when it was proven to him that he was wrong. You could take a lesson from Pike right there.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Wow! He was a 33rd Degree!?! Tell me, how does his degree and membership in a side order in the Southern Jurisdiction matter to anyone in the Northern Jurisdiction or anyone not in the Scottish Rite at all?

Like I said. There are "two" Pikes in the 33rd lodge.

If you believe the Southern jurisdiction lost to the Northern jurisdiction because of the superior forces of the north, you can continue to believe that.

Any order needs men who believe some things. Otherwise there could be no structure at all.

The Templars knew this. Here is what one commentator says:

"...a significant number of Templars escaped arrest and appealed to the king of Scotland, the only European kingdom at that time that had not accepted the authority of the Pope. In Scotland, they infiltrated the wall-builders' guild and, in time, took it over. The guilds adopted the traditions of the Templars, and thus, the Masonic seed was planted in Scotland. Still, to this day, the mainline of Masonry is the "Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite." pg.50

Source: "Global Freemasonry", Harun Yahya

Why did the templars need "wall builders?"

The Walls of the Freemasons' temple are the Blue Lodge. The rough stones made into perfected stones are the men of the blue lodge improved by masonry. But, what are the walls for? What great secret is enclosed "inside" the walls, that there should be any need for these walls at all?

That is what Pike was saying. Most of the men that call themselves "Freemasons" are but the walls of the lodge. They have no purpose but to contain the secret within. They are not told what they are providing that security for. Instead, they are told to look for the "LOST WORD".

In the holy of holies of the Freemason's Lodge Temple there's a single green sparkling jewel, a tool of the craft, a precious object, so important, that it gives the high Princes of masonry all their magical powers. It can be described by "one word." It is "one word", yet "many things." And strange enough, Pike amazingly points to the word in his book "Morals and Dogma". There, in plain language, available for anybody to read, is the greatest secret of Freemasonry. It explains immediately, for anybody that finds it, why the walls of the temple are there. But, for those that can't find the lost word, the walls are the lodge, the stones in the walls are the masons perfected dressed and installed, and all the free men that entered the lodge are buried there in the walls, just as Pike himself is buried in the walls of the 33rd lodge.

Now, I can't make it any clearer than that.

You will believe your own understanding, not mine.

reply to post by DRAZIW

Again, the perpetuation of the Templars came after Ramsay's Oration and many Mason invented a history to accommodate their new order/body. Did you even look at my post on the perpetuation theories?

Originally posted by DRAZIW
If you believe the Southern jurisdiction lost to the Northern jurisdiction because of the superior forces of the north, you can continue to believe that.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that. The Southern Jurisdiction styles itself as the Mother Supreme Council of the World, and all legitimate Scottish Rite jurisdictions do so with its blessing. That being said, there WAS a divergence in ritual, and neither Pike's ritual work nor his writings on the same (ie Morals & Dogma) have any importance to a Northern Jurisdiction Scottish Rite Mason other than perhaps as a scholarly or historical analysis. There may be other Scottish Rite bodies in other parts of the world using variations on Pike's ritual. I don't personally know of any, but would not be surprised if there were a couple out there, but the importance of Pike is a predominantly Southern Jurisdiction thing, and the Southern Jurisdiction comprises 35 of the 50 states in the US with probably over 100,000 members.

Originally posted by DRAZIW
If you believe the Southern jurisdiction lost to the Northern jurisdiction because of the superior forces of the north, you can continue to believe that.

Are you confusing the Civil War with Masonic jurisdictions? There are northern states in the Southern Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite but the states in the Northern Jurisdiction follow their own leadership and Pike and his degrees have little to no bearing. I am sure you are going to say you already knew this, what with you be the Masonic expert and all.

In the holy of holies of the Freemason's Lodge Temple there's a single green sparkling jewel, a tool of the craft, a precious object, so important, that it gives the high Princes of masonry all their magical powers.

Really? We must have misplaced our magic green sparkling jewel as I have not seen it in our lodge. Is this something you found at gospeltruth.org? You are way out in the weeds now.....

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by DRAZIW

 

Again, the perpetuation of the Templars came after Ramsay's Oration and many Mason invented a history to accommodate their new order/body. Did you even look at my post on the perpetuation theories?

Yes, but I have read many things. I really can't tell you which of the stories are factual and which are made up.

Instead, I look for the logic behind the existence of things. Of more interest to me, is the methods of operation and what that implies. It's the structure of the thought process, not the fact here or there, that represents the valuable information in all these detailed stories.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by DRAZIW
If you believe the Southern jurisdiction lost to the Northern jurisdiction because of the superior forces of the north, you can continue to believe that.

Are you confusing the Civil War with Masonic jurisdictions?

Not at all, Masons are peace loving folk. They don't take part in wars. In point of fact, Albert Pike was a member of the "Know-Nothing" party; their motto was to respond to any question put to them with "I know nothing" !

How could the man who knew nothing, become the 33rd rank and get "two" busts of himself in the highest lodge of the land?

I think, the problem with all the other masons, is that they obviously know too much.

Clouded by all their supposedly factual knowledge, they can't see the plain mystery.

If they could know nothing like Pike, maybe they would be able to see what Pike actually said for themselves.

Originally posted by DRAZIW
How could the man who knew nothing, become the 33rd rank and get "two" busts of himself in the highest lodge of the land?

Why is that even relevant and how does the House of the Temple's authority allegedly supercede that of every state's Grand Lodge? Is this another gospletruth nugget of 'truth'?

reply to post by DRAZIW

Many believe that Ramsay's motivation for his speech linking Masonry to chivalric knighthoods was that he was trying to market Freemasonry to French aristocracy. In England, Freemasonry was more or less a gentleman's club, but it can said that the French aristocrats would probably not desire to join an organization that says it stems from workman. There are many absurdities and historical inaccuracies in most of the Templar perpetuation myths.

Robert Cooper also has a good book out called "The Roslyn Hoax".

After Ramsay's Oration there were several orders that popped up all over. It was a like a wild fire for a while. Hell, many of those old orders still exist in some fashion. Look at the HRAKTP vs the 19th Clerical Knights Templar order or the Rite of Strict Observance vs the Rectified Scottish Rite (CBCS/KBCH).

reply to post by DRAZIW

The Civil War did cause some schism in Freemasonry at a time when it was still suffering from the public scrutiny following the Morgan Affair. In fact the Grand Master of the General Grand Encampment of Knights Templar, USA (which is what it was known by at the time), wrote a letter to the various Grand Commanderies at the time asking them to put aside partisan politics and avoid fighting. Whatever positive effect he had hoped, it back fired and I know at least one Grand Commandery wrote back telling them they were no longer under their jurisdiction.

Pike also held many commendable positions within the York Rite. But nonetheless he was a man and not without fault. He had his opinion, but it is just that. He is a scandalous person and a Masonic writer, but it is not like he was the only one worth anything. There are many fine modern ones.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by DRAZIW
How could the man who knew nothing, become the 33rd rank and get "two" busts of himself in the highest lodge of the land?

Why is that even relevant and how does the House of the Temple's authority allegedly supercede that of every state's Grand Lodge? Is this another gospletruth nugget of 'truth'?

That's like asking how does GAOTU superscede all the lodges on earth.