Anders Breivik and "hidden" Freemasons

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by DRAZIW
I rarely make things up.

You notice that the text you highlighted is nearly identical to what I quoted? Obligated does not mean compulsory. Breivik could have easily attended only four meetings without this being unusual. There are members of my lodge that I have not seen since they were raised to the Master Mason degree several years ago.

But, like I said, there are different types of Freemason Lodges in existence. Some deal with the real freemasonry, others have a more ceremonial function.

Please explain the difference.

The serious lodges require attendance:

QUOTE:

Attendance

"Before every meeting each member of the Lodge receives a 'summons' or ‘circular’ which requests his attendance and advises the date, time and business of the lodge. Members must attend on every occasion unless prevented by family, work, business commitments or other unforeseen circumstances.

When unable to attend it is essential that you send an apology to the lodge for your non-attendance. This can be done by contacting the Master, the Lodge Secretary or your Proposer or Seconder."

Source: Provincial Grand Lodge of Northumberland

www.northumberlandmasons.org...

You see, the obligation it taken very seriously. You "can" miss a meeting, but it is not "optional", by any means. You must have a "good excuse" for being unable to attend.

This attitude alone, distinguishes one type of lodge from the other type where it is apparently "optional" to participate. In a ceremonial lodge, it is indeed hard for members to get motivated to come to meetings where they just participate in role playing skits, that are supposed to have some deep symbolic meaning. They soon loose interest, and find it a burden to come to meetings, for every other activity of life draws more interest and seem more important. Hence the brothers that you haven't seen in years. Change your lodge, and find out what you're missing.

Originally posted by DRAZIW
"Before every meeting each member of the Lodge receives a 'summons' or ‘circular’ which requests his attendance and advises the date, time and business of the lodge. Members must attend on every occasion unless prevented by family, work, business commitments or other unforeseen circumstances.

Once again, the bolded text does not contradict what I told you earlier. It 'requests' your attendance, not 'demands' or 'requires'. Attendance is optional, it always has been.

You see, the obligation it taken very seriously. You "can" miss a meeting, but it is not "optional", by any means. You must have a "good excuse" for being unable to attend.

Indicate where it says it is not optional. The 'good excuses' are explained in the quoted text; family, work, etc.

This attitude alone, distinguishes one type of lodge from the other type where it is apparently "optional" to participate.

My entire jursidiction adheres to the admonishment I cited earlier. Does this make all of New Jersey 'ceremonial'? Not to mention all the other states that have the same explanation in the Entered Apprentice degree.

In a ceremonial lodge, it is indeed hard for members to get motivated to come to meetings where they just participate in role playing skits, that are supposed to have some deep symbolic meaning.

Define a 'cermonial lodge' and explain in detail what the Lodge of Northumberland is doing that makes them non-'ceremonial'. They enact the same 'role playing skits' as every other Masonic lodge. Share your intimate knowledge of Masonry with us and explain the difference.

Originally posted by DRAZIW
Some people are content to be spoon fed their stories and accept all that is reported.

Does forcing everything through a Masonic lens really make the picture that much clearer? How does dismissing concrete evidence (i.e., his obtaining the police uniform in Prague) as "misdirection" for a conspiracy theory with zero supporting evidence have more investigative integrity than "accepting all that is reported"?

paying himself large sums of cash

There's no point at which any of this requires large sums of cash.

inviting himself into underworld paramilitary training camps, teaching himself to shoot, build explosives

You could do the same thing with the technology you already have (hint: Google).

learning how to impersonate a police officer convincingly

What's so hard about that?

We all pick our square of preference on the checkerboard to stand on.

If you want to insist, on zero evidence, on your wild and self-contradictory theory that the heroic Anders Breivik worked murder 170 people, primarily children, motivated by a desire to expose Freemasonry as somehow being worse than that, with the help of the same Freemasons he intended to expose, have at it. But it's not supported by anything but your will to believe it and your absurd mangling of sources, and you're going to be told that if you come here.

Originally posted by OnTheLevel213

Originally posted by DRAZIW
Some people are content to be spoon fed their stories and accept all that is reported.

Does forcing everything through a Masonic lens really make the picture that much clearer? How does dismissing concrete evidence (i.e., his obtaining the police uniform in Prague) as "misdirection" for a conspiracy theory with zero supporting evidence have more investigative integrity than "accepting all that is reported"?

He said that. But he also said he worked alone. And he also said there were two more cells that worked with him. etc..the fact remains that he was a Freemason, and he was apprenticed to other Freemasons, and apprentices learn their trade by watching their instructors, imitating, and following orders.

paying himself large sums of cash

There's no point at which any of this requires large sums of cash.

I think the figure mentioned was $700,000 at one point. Not a large some to Bill Gates. But, substantial to many people. Certainly more than enough for the venture at hand. Remember, he's had to "pay" for his military training, etc..I guess that sort of thing doesn't come cheap.

inviting himself into underworld paramilitary training camps, teaching himself to shoot, build explosives

You could do the same thing with the technology you already have (hint: Google).

Sorry, you can't learn this with google. Need an expert to show you the way, and a private place to practice the art. Many an individual has blown himself up trying to teach himself the art of making and using explosives. That's where the military training came in.

learning how to impersonate a police officer convincingly

What's so hard about that?

Takes a bit of "acting". This means practicing acting in the company of people who can judge whether the act is convincing enough. Rehearsals, and revisions, until he gets it right. Not everybody is a natural born actor.

We all pick our square of preference on the checkerboard to stand on.

If you want to insist, on zero evidence, on your wild and self-contradictory theory that the heroic Anders Breivik worked murder 170 people, primarily children, motivated by a desire to expose Freemasonry as somehow being worse than that, with the help of the same Freemasons he intended to expose, have at it. But it's not supported by anything but your will to believe it and your absurd mangling of sources, and you're going to be told that if you come here.

You can tell it according to how you see it. I'll tell it according to how I see it. Neither you nor I have all the facts. I'm looking past the "veil", and you're accepting what's shown on the surface. That's all.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Define a 'cermonial lodge' and explain in detail what the Lodge of Northumberland is doing that makes them non-'ceremonial'. They enact the same 'role playing skits' as every other Masonic lodge. Share your intimate knowledge of Masonry with us and explain the difference.

The difference is that all their members typically show up to lodge meetings, while your lodge has several members that have gone awol, and haven't even been seen in years. That's because they probably visited another lodge, found they preferred it, and switched. They are not going to come back to your lodge to tell you what's different, they leave you to believe that lodge meetings are "optional". You have the right to visit other lodges. A good mason visits to expand his knowledge, and some switch. That's all you need to know. As long as you want to believe that meetings are optional, and not obligatory, you're in the right place already, and don't need what's on offer in the other types of lodges anyway.

Originally posted by DRAZIW
The difference is that all their members typically show up to lodge meetings, while your lodge has several members that have gone awol, and haven't even been seen in years.

Firstly, the lodge I am a member of is the largest in northern New Jersey, if not the entire state, we have over 400 members.

Second, all lodges do not get their entire membership to show up for any meeting. As a point of reference, if every member of my lodge showed up they would have to particiapte in the meeting from the parking lot.

That's because they probably visited another lodge, found they preferred it, and switched. They are not going to come back to your lodge to tell you what's different, they leave you to believe that lodge meetings are "optional".

Do you not read anything I posted. In the entire state of New Jersey the meetings are optional, every lodge in every district. Optional. Not mandatory. The quote I posted earlier from the Entered Apprentice degree is an admonishment that is given to every member in every lodge of the state. Get it?

Addionally, if a member of any lodge wants to join another lodge, either by being a dual member or outright leaving one lodge for another, our lodge Secretary must be contacted by the perspective lodge Secretary who must inform him whether or not he is still in good standing (dues are up to date). We then must take a vote to allow him to demit from our lodge or they must take a vote to allow him to have dual membership. Either way we are aware of the possible change. We would know if they were leaving so I do not have any idea where you get your theory from. You should stop pretending to understand how the Fraternity operates and ask more questions instead.

You have the right to visit other lodges. A good mason visits to expand his knowledge, and some switch. That's all you need to know. As long as you want to believe that meetings are optional, and not obligatory, you're in the right place already, and don't need what's on offer in the other types of lodges anyway.

You are rather pompous and arrogant. How do you know that I have not travelled to other lodges? How do you know whether Brothers from other lodges travel to my lodge? How do you know what we 'offer' is not what the active portion (which is a fairly sizeable cross section) of the membership is interested in? What makes you so supremely knowldegable about the workings of hundreds of lodges that you could even presuppose what actions should or should not be taken to cultivate membership particiaption or retention?

I do not 'believe' the meetings are optional, I know they are optional. It is told to every Mason when he joins in this state. Perhaps you are aware of insructions to the contrary?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

I do not 'believe' the meetings are optional, I know they are optional. It is told to every Mason when he joins in this state. Perhaps you are aware of insructions to the contrary?

Yes. In other lodges the MM is considered to have received a benefit by being raised, and is "expected" to "give back" to the lodge by active participation.

It's as simple as that.

Not hard to understand why it is an obligation, and not really an option.

Originally posted by DRAZIW
Yes. In other lodges the MM is considered to have received a benefit by being raised, and is "expected" to "give back" to the lodge by active participation.

You have some serious misconceptions about what it means to be a Mason. There is no point in the obligation that compells you to 'give back' to the lodge. A Mason is admonshied that his duties are to God, his family and his neighbor. What lodge ritual are you citing? Why do you continue to invent aspects about the Fraternity that do not exist?

It's as simple as that.

Not hard to understand why it is an obligation, and not really an option.

Once again, show us where in any obligation that a Mason is told attendance is mandatory.

Originally posted by DRAZIW

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

I do not 'believe' the meetings are optional, I know they are optional. It is told to every Mason when he joins in this state. Perhaps you are aware of insructions to the contrary?

Yes. In other lodges the MM is considered to have received a benefit by being raised, and is "expected" to "give back" to the lodge by active participation.

It's as simple as that.

Not hard to understand why it is an obligation, and not really an option.

OK, you are just confused. In the US, masonry is pretty much universal as far as I have seen in conversations with other masons from other states. Here is how it works. And remember, this is coming to you form a mason who is active in his lodge.

In your first three visits to a lodge, you are first being initiated (first degree), secondly being passed (second degree), and lastly being Raised (3rd degree) you are told that your regular attendance is earnestly solicited, but you are told that masonry is in no way to interfere with your family, your faith, or your job. Masons are regular people. Some joined to learn all sorts of things, go through the ranks, and one day, become master of their lodge. They can participate in any number of side bodies and some become very busy with one side body that they like. If that happens, they may not come to regular lodge meetings very often. There are almost always a core group that shows up to the lodge and takes care of things with the building. This is the norm at almost every lodge in the US. So a lodge that has say 200 members on the books, may only have 25-30 members at a meeting at any one time. TO understand why not everyone is there you have to use the human factor. Some are out of town on business, some are on vacations, some have moved away, but still maintain their memberships at their home lodge. Some may just be lazy, and don't want to be bothered to go to a meeting.

While you are free to masticate in any way you see fit, I suggest that you refrain from such action until you have complete understanding of the subject you are attempting to discuss. That way, you can learn and inform, instead of derail. (IMHO)

Originally posted by network dude
[
While you are free to masticate in any way you see fit, I suggest that you refrain from such action until you have complete understanding of the subject you are attempting to discuss. That way, you can learn and inform, instead of derail. (IMHO)

Like I said before, I rarely make things up.

This is not something I've invented.

Sure, I learn from you, what your lodge is about.

However, Freemasonry only has a certain number of fixed "landmarks". And those landmarks are all that is required for a lodge to be called Masonic. Beyond those landmarks, lodges can and do vary. The landmarks of Freemasonry are all "symbolic". Beyond the "symbolism", what goes on in a particular lodge can be very different from one lodge to the next. This is why it is difficult for some to understand why some lodges use terms like "obligation" and yet others say "optional" in the same place.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Once again, show us where in any obligation that a Mason is told attendance is mandatory.

Official Masonic publication:

The Freemason's Manual, Compiled by Thomas Sargant, 32 degree Mason,
Adapted for the Dominion of Canada, Masonic Publishing Co., Toronto. 1880.

pg. 12-13

III - OF LODGES

A LODGE is a place where Freemasons assemble to work and to instruct and improve themselves in the mysteries of their ancient science...Every brother ought to belong to some lodge and be subject to its by-laws and the general regulations of the craft. A lodge may be either general or particular, as will be best understood by attending it, and there a knowledge of the established usages and customs of the craft is alone to be acquired. From ancient times no master or fellow could be absent from his lodge, especially when warned to appear at it, without incurring a severe censure, unless it appeared to the master and wardens that pure necessity hindered him."

Source: www.scribd.com...

There are other, much more detailed sources on this point. I'll dig them out, when I get a chance, so you can see it's not my invention.

Originally posted by DRAZIW

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

I do not 'believe' the meetings are optional, I know they are optional. It is told to every Mason when he joins in this state. Perhaps you are aware of insructions to the contrary?

Yes. In other lodges the MM is considered to have received a benefit by being raised, and is "expected" to "give back" to the lodge by active participation.

It's as simple as that.

Not hard to understand why it is an obligation, and not really an option.

And your extensive Masonic 'knowledge' is derived from.....what exactly? Personal experience in a Regular, recognised Lodge? Because August's experience in New Jersey dovetails precisely with mine in Ontario. When I was Initiated, I was told that Lodge was to come after work, family and faith in terms of personal priorities. As a Deacon and responsible for candidate progression, I reiterated this same point to new EAs.

If you put the metaphoric gun to a person's head regarding absolute attendance, you can be pretty sure that his attendance will turn out to be absolutely zero.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
If you put the metaphoric gun to a person's head regarding absolute attendance, you can be pretty sure that his attendance will turn out to be absolutely zero.

And what is the problem with that exactly?

Masonry isn't for "everyone." And was never intended to be.

It's not like the church, where the public is constantly being solicited to join up.

When you join a church, your expectations are that some time in the far distant future, if you follow the principles of the church diligently, you may see a benefit. A new church member has zero expectations of any immediate benefit.

Most people join masonry, because they want more light now. They are not prepared to wait. They've heard rumors, through friends, books, family members, acquaintances, etc..that there's something to be gained quite quickly by joining the Freemasons. Something in this life, not just hereafter like the church promises.

They want an accelerated path to the light.

But, this light, for the lodges that truly possess it, is a real treasure that is not handed out to just about any Joe on the street. Masonry is an exclusive club. Any poor beggar can walk off the street and enter a Christian Church, sit down and hear the word of God. He doesn't have to have a penny in his pocket. No dues required. No initiation necessary. He doesn't even have to believe in God. Maybe he just wants to get out of the heat, or out of the cold, and needs a temporary resting place for his tired feet for the moment.

That man can't enter a Freemason's lodge.

But, God accepts him. Even though he may not know god. To come listen to the word of the Lord, to hear instruction in his mysteries, there's no requirement, except a man be able to move himself bodily from where he is to the spot within earshot of the word of the preacher. That's it. Give me your tired and your poor. He could be a cripple, blind, sick, etc..never a reason to exclude from the church. He could be a terrible sinner. All the more reason the church wants him. Jesus himself said, that he deliberately spent time with the sinners, because they are the ones who needed to hear the word the most.

Now, on the other hand, Freemasonry is on the other end of things. There must be a balance, after all. If there is one thing, there must be an opposite thing, so that one may contemplate the opposites, and so find truth.

Freemasons don't want sinners. How quickly Anders Breivik was expelled! They only want "good men" of "upright moral character". They are the first to tell any man that they are not a church. If you want to seek the Lord, go elsewhere. There are no preachers here. Freemasons don't accept cripples, the blind, the sick ..etc..and you must be able to pay your dues at least. No free rides. Why is this?

Supposedly, Freemasons have a "treasure" to offer those who are ready to receive it. But, there's a price to pay for this treasure. It's not handed out freely, like welfare checks.. In return for this treasure, the masons expect the candidate to simply attend meetings and participate, share his experiences with others, and contribute to the learning environment for the benefit of all in the lodge. It's really not too much to ask a candidate, considering the value of this treasure. But, something has happened to Freemasonry over the years, and it has split into two groups with different practices. One thinks "obligation" is the way, the other thinks "optional" is best.


In order to maintain the true masonic principle of not handing out welfare checks to candidates, the two systems have their own separate ways of solving the "something for nothing" paradox.

One group makes it "obligatory" to attend meetings, to participate, and give back to the lodge, with penalties if the candidate fails to show up without very good excuse; but then on raising the candidate to MM they give him the full light of masonry, so he immediately understands why the obligation is necessary, and is happy to make every effort to comply.

The other group makes it "optional" to attend meetings, or even to come back at all after being raised. But, on raising the candidate to MM, he is given mostly a symbolic and ceremonial drama for his lesson. He is then told that he needs to contemplate the symbols, and study them carefully, and if he struggles hard, over time, the true light will come to him. Since they gave the candidate nothing much, nothing much is expected back from him. And it's ok to set the policy to "optional" in this case. The trick here, is that the candidate has to keep coming back to get a bit more light. So his attendance is guaranteed by his own need and/or desire to know more. Only the most self-directed candidates with a genuine interest in the symbolism continue to come back to meetings, and they participate and contribute to the philosophy of masonry. They enjoy the discussions, the dinners, the ritual ceremonies, the lectures etc..

Originally posted by DRAZIW
Official Masonic publication:

From ancient times no master or fellow could be absent from his lodge, especially when warned to appear at it, without incurring a severe censure, unless it appeared to the master and wardens that pure necessity hindered him."

Good thing you know so much about Masonic ritual, otherwise you may have quoted the actual ritual instead of the introduction speaking about 'ancent times'.

There are other, much more detailed sources on this point. I'll dig them out, when I get a chance, so you can see it's not my invention.

Yes, do dig them out and make sure this time it is actual ritual you are citing.

Originally posted by DRAZIW
And what is the problem with that exactly?

1. Because it's an unrealistic expectation in this day and age for any group outside of employers.
2. Because to introduce an unrealistic expectation of attendance is to ultimately have wasted the time of the
person being initiated as well as the lodge membership who've participated in that initiation.
3. Because if you do that often enough, you won't have to worry about doing any initiations at all because word
of this unbalanced, unreasonable expectation will get around and potential candidates will look elsewhere for
more reasonable, balanced groups (whether other lodges or other groups entirely)
4. Because it has been pointed out repeatedly to you by actual Masons in this thread that this is not an
expectation of Masons no matter how many times you claim it is.

Originally posted by DRAZIW
Masonry isn't for "everyone." And was never intended to be.

No! Really?

However, it does have to present a reasonable accommodation to the normal everyday day-to-day requirements of its membership or else it withers and dies. Which is why your assertion of absolute attendance is an absolute fallacy.

Originally posted by DRAZIW
It's not like the church, where the public is constantly being solicited to join up.
When you join a church, your expectations are that some time in the far distant future, if you follow the principles of the church diligently, you may see a benefit. A new church member has zero expectations of any immediate benefit.

Pretty narrow (in its scope) and all-encompassing (in tarring all religious institutions with the same brush) assertion. Too bad even in your narrow definition, you're wrong (although I'll leave any further discussion of that to another thread as it's rather OT here).

Originally posted by DRAZIW
Most people join masonry, because they want more light now.

Really? Is that so? And you 'know' this because you're.....what exactly? A Mason? A Lodge officer? A Grand Lodge Officer maybe? What jurisdiction?

I'm just impressed how easily these unsupported assertions fly from your orifice without the least bit of actual connection with reality.

Originally posted by DRAZIW
They are not prepared to wait. They've heard rumors, through friends, books, family members, acquaintances, etc..that there's something to be gained quite quickly by joining the Freemasons. Something in this life, not just hereafter like the church promises.

They want an accelerated path to the light.

Does EVERYONE in DRAZIWorld operate on such naked mercenary and childish attitudes?

"They" may have heard rumours but clearly "they" clearly haven't done anything to disabuse themselves that these rumours are nothing more than that.

"They" clearly are fearless investiGooglers who seem to have a rather clear contempt for others.

It would seem that "they" are happy to continue to think of everyone else in the world as mercenary, selfish beings with only an eye to the immediate versus the long-term.

"They" would be wrong (as "they" so often turn out to be in such cases).

Originally posted by DRAZIW
But, this light, for the lodges that truly possess it, is a real treasure that is not handed out to just about any Joe on the street.

ORLY? Dare I ask what lodges in your vast experience "possess it"? Certainly these lodges bear no resemblance to any lodge I've visited.

Originally posted by DRAZIW
Masonry is an exclusive club. Any poor beggar can walk off the street and enter a Christian Church, sit down and hear the word of God.

Presuming that he's there at the right time. In my experience, most religious buildings (be they Christian churches, Jewish temples, etc) aren't left open 24/7 for the creature comfort of passing poor beggars. The occasional city cathedral might but again the poor beggar has to be in the right place; the rest're locked up nice and tight just like any other building closed to the "poor beggar".

Originally posted by DRAZIW
He doesn't have to have a penny in his pocket. No dues required. No initiation necessary. He doesn't even have to believe in God.

And human nature being what it too often is, if he stumbled into just any church, he'd most likely be invited to stumble right on back out (even more quickly if he's stumbling in the suburbs; suburbanites can be rather myopic that way)

To be continued

Originally posted by DRAZIW
Maybe he just wants to get out of the heat, or out of the cold, and needs a temporary resting place for his tired feet for the moment.

That man can't enter a Freemason's lodge.

Nice strawman. Unfortunately, your "poor beggar" isn't actually interested in polishing his moral soul and while he couldn't enter a lodge, he might well be allowed to avail himself of the warmth of the Temple. I'll leave it to you to parse the difference.

Originally posted by DRAZIW
But, God accepts him.

God accepts him wherever and however he might be, no church required. Men (being men) aren't often so welcoming. Your "Pleasantville" church is rather the exception in my experience

Originally posted by DRAZIW
Even though he may not know god. To come listen to the word of the Lord, to hear instruction in his mysteries, there's no requirement, except a man be able to move himself bodily from where he is to the spot within earshot of the word of the preacher. That's it. Give me your tired and your poor. He could be a cripple, blind, sick, etc..never a reason to exclude from the church. He could be a terrible sinner. All the more reason the church wants him. Jesus himself said, that he deliberately spent time with the sinners, because they are the ones who needed to hear the word the most.

Again, God accepts him wherever and however he might be, no church required. Men (being men) aren't often so welcoming. Your "Pleasantville" church is rather the exception in my experience and is much more likely to be run-off by men

Originally posted by DRAZIW
Now, on the other hand, Freemasonry is on the other end of things.

ORLY? I guess this is where we hear all about Masonry being for the well-to-do. Ne'er-do-wells need not apply.

Originally posted by DRAZIW
There must be a balance, after all. If there is one thing, there must be an opposite thing, so that one may contemplate the opposites, and so find truth.

Welcome to strawman land again.

Originally posted by DRAZIW
Freemasons don't want sinners.

All of us on this Earth are sinners to one degree or another. As is often said, we take good men and make them better.

However, it can safely be surmised that someone capable of multiple murderers is rather unlikely to fit the conventional notion of 'a good man'. Things may be different in DRAZIWorld©

Originally posted by DRAZIW
How quickly Anders Breivik was expelled!

Goodness! Anders Breivik's concept of improving his immortal soul involved multiple homicides. Would you care to posit what group would cleave such an individual to themselves? This should be good.

Originally posted by DRAZIW
They only want "good men" of "upright moral character".

Men who want to improve themselves morally. Multiple homicides really run counter to the conventional notion of 'improvement' (at least outside DRAZIWorld© that is)

Originally posted by DRAZIW
They are the first to tell any man that they are not a church. If you want to seek the Lord, go elsewhere. There are no preachers here.

Masonry doesn't exist to reinvent that wheel. A man's faith is his and his alone. Masonry is a non-denominational group that imparts moral lessons in the hope of making just and upright men of more facility to themselves and to society in general. I'm sorry if you find this to be a bad thing.

Originally posted by DRAZIW
Freemasons don't accept cripples, the blind, the sick ..etc..

Perhaps not in DRAZIWorld©. In this world, you clearly don't know WTF you're talking about.

Originally posted by DRAZIW
and you must be able to pay your dues at least. No free rides. Why is this?

Because (like most) we have bills (like property taxes for example) to pay. Sorry if that offends you.

Originally posted by DRAZIW
Supposedly, Freemasons have a "treasure" to offer those who are ready to receive it.

ORLY? Do tell!

Originally posted by DRAZIW
But, there's a price to pay for this treasure. It's not handed out freely, like welfare checks..

Says the man who clearly has no experience with welfare cheques

Originally posted by DRAZIW
In return for this treasure, the masons expect the candidate to simply attend meetings and participate, ...

As his schedule permits (work, family and faith having been attended to). But do go on

Originally posted by DRAZIW
share his experiences with others, and contribute to the learning environment for the benefit of all in the lodge.

I think you must've been at an AA or NarcAnon meeting as this description bears no resemblance to any Regular Masonic meeting I've attended

To be continued

Originally posted by DRAZIW
It's really not too much to ask a candidate, considering the value of this treasure.

Please do specify "this treasure" (links to something other than freemasonrywatch would be a good start)

Originally posted by DRAZIW
But, something has happened to Freemasonry over the years, and it has split into two groups with different practices. One thinks "obligation" is the way, the other thinks "optional" is best.

Please specify which lodges or Grand Lodge lean which way. (links to something other than freemasonrywatch would be a good start)

Originally posted by DRAZIW
In order to maintain the true masonic principle of not handing out welfare checks to candidates, the two systems have their own separate ways of solving the "something for nothing" paradox.

Please specify which lodges or Grand Lodge lean which way. (links to something other than freemasonrywatch would be a good start)

Originally posted by DRAZIW
One group makes it "obligatory" to attend meetings, to participate, and give back to the lodge, with penalties if the candidate fails to show up without very good excuse; but then on raising the candidate to MM they give him the full light of masonry, so he immediately understands why the obligation is necessary, and is happy to make every effort to comply.

Please specify which lodges or Grand Lodge lean which way. (links to something other than freemasonrywatch would be a good start)

Originally posted by DRAZIW
The other group makes it "optional" to attend meetings, or even to come back at all after being raised. But, on raising the candidate to MM, he is given mostly a symbolic and ceremonial drama for his lesson. He is then told that he needs to contemplate the symbols, and study them carefully, and if he struggles hard, over time, the true light will come to him. Since they gave the candidate nothing much, nothing much is expected back from him. And it's ok to set the policy to "optional" in this case.

Please specify which lodges or Grand Lodge lean which way. (links to something other than freemasonrywatch would be a good start)

Originally posted by DRAZIW
The trick here, is that the candidate has to keep coming back to get a bit more light. So his attendance is guaranteed by his own need and/or desire to know more. Only the most self-directed candidates with a genuine interest in the symbolism continue to come back to meetings, and they participate and contribute to the philosophy of masonry. They enjoy the discussions, the dinners, the ritual ceremonies, the lectures etc..

Please specify which lodges or Grand Lodge lean which way. (links to something other than freemasonrywatch would be a good start)

And to reiterate the part of my post you chose to edit-out of my initial reply:

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
And your extensive Masonic 'knowledge' is derived from.....what exactly? Personal experience in a Regular, recognised Lodge? Because August's experience in New Jersey dovetails precisely with mine in Ontario. When I was Initiated, I was told that Lodge was to come after work, family and faith in terms of personal priorities. As a Deacon and responsible for candidate progression, I reiterated this same point to new EAs.

Enquiring mind wants to know

Originally posted by DRAZIW
One group makes it "obligatory" to attend meetings, to participate, and give back to the lodge, with penalties if the candidate fails to show up without very good excuse; but then on raising the candidate to MM they give him the full light of masonry, so he immediately understands why the obligation is necessary, and is happy to make every effort to comply.

The other group makes it "optional" to attend meetings, or even to come back at all after being raised. But, on raising the candidate to MM, he is given mostly a symbolic and ceremonial drama for his lesson. He is then told that he needs to contemplate the symbols, and study them carefully, and if he struggles hard, over time, the true light will come to him.

Of course, the wonderful thing about teaching through allegory is that both groups are teaching the exact same thing in the exact same way. You're always given all the light Masonry has to offer, but that light comes in the form of symbols that could take you a lifetime of contemplation to understand. Or maybe you will get it right away. Really depends on the student, not the teacher or the lesson.

But none of this gets back to Breivik. His lodge says he only attended one meeting after being raised to the degree of Master Mason. You've offered no proof otherwise. I've shown that there's no "St. John's apprentice" in Norwegian Masonry (or any Freemasonry, for that matter), yet you still maintain he was one of 38 elite in his lodge, with nothing to actually back that up. Please explain.

Originally posted by DRAZIW
He said that. But he also said he worked alone. And he also said there were two more cells that worked with him. etc..

So he's self-contradicting and unintelligible, and you don't buy the idea that he's a lunatic?

the fact remains that he was a Freemason, and he was apprenticed to other Freemasons, and apprentices learn their trade by watching their instructors, imitating, and following orders.

A) Entered Apprentice is a degree, not a position/rank. You are not "apprenticed to Freemasons" by being an Entered Apprentice.

B) Even if that were true, Norman Vincent Peale was a minister and a Freemason, but you've made it clear you don't believe one and the other are related; John Elway was a quarterback and is a Freemason, but it would be absurd to assume he learned to read a Cover 4 in a lodge. Why is it impossible for Anders Breivik's membership to be wholly separate from his murder spree?

I think the figure mentioned was $700,000 at one point.

The largest figure I've heard mentioned was $70,000, which is not terribly out-of-reach through fanatical self-denial and the success he appears to have had as a businessman.

Remember, he's had to "pay" for his military training, etc..I guess that sort of thing doesn't come cheap.

He served briefly in the Norwegian army. I assume that's like every other army in the world in that it requires basic training.

Sorry, you can't learn this with google.

Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, Cho-Seung Hui, and a long list of self-educated spree killers would like a word.

Takes a bit of "acting". This means practicing acting in the company of people who can judge whether the act is convincing enough.

Now you're just being ridiculous. You don't need a ten-week course with Stanislavski to make people believe you're a police officer while you're wearing a uniform.

I'm looking past the "veil", and you're accepting what's shown on the surface.

No, you're stretching and yanking on another veil to fit over it.

Originally posted by OnTheLevel213

Remember, he's had to "pay" for his military training, etc..I guess that sort of thing doesn't come cheap.

He served briefly in the Norwegian army. I assume that's like every other army in the world in that it requires basic training.

Indeed, like many countries, Norway requires military service of all it's males between certain ages.