Roswell debris tested - - Not from Earth

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
Seems overly sensationalist. A small piece of aluminum, found in the desert, displaying minor attributes which are atypical of normal aluminum, so it must be "not from earth?"

Sure.

I suppose the probability that it's debris from some unknown campsite left behind in the past 40 years is out of the question... right?

Only if the campsite originated from another planet. Did you read the article? It clearly states that the two lab reports on the fragments both seem to show that the material is NOT of earthly origin...

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


from what i read, it was more than a single small piece of aluminum, it was several small pieces. it probably wasn't from a campfire, considering there was evidence the pieces were manufactured (they showed several pics of a line or score going across one of the pieces, and to my eyes it did look manufactured). according to the article, there is no way the magnesium could have come from earth, as all terrestrial magnesium contains the composite elements in certain ratios, which was not the case with these pieces. i'm not a geologist, so i can't say if this is true or not, but you really haven't presented any evidence that it isn't...just a cynical attitude.

Originally posted by aboutface
reply to post by liejunkie01

 

Ever since WW2 the Americans' reputation for discovering and manufacturing alloys has been high (maybe thanks to Operation Paperclip (?)

My concern is that even if it's a hitherto unknown alloy, by the time it goes through peer review wherein they will supposedly establish some kind of norms for determining whether it can be manufactured on earth, by then the claims by those who WANT it to be extraterrestrial will see it as only they can. And once more the Roswell myth will be propagated. Because if it should happen to come from a mirage or stealth test lab, do you think the DOD would admit to it in any case? The chances of a test crash just outside the base between 1947 and now are certainly not zero.

I see it as only perpetuating what has always been. Unless, of course, there is disclosure.

edit on 13-7-2011 by aboutface because: (no reason given)

edit on 13-7-2011 by aboutface because: spelling

the norms for determining if an alloy is of earthly or alien origin already exist - and have existed for many, many years. scientists KNOW what an earthly substance measures - and what a non-earthly substance measures. it's either of earthly origin or not. and a good lab can tell us..

Originally posted by justwokeup
It beggars belief that this would be removed when other threads of the 'something might happen today' variety are allowed to take up server space.

It may turn out to be nothing but its more worthy of following than most of the 'breaking news' that gets posted.

I am amazed...some ATS members actually have a degree of common sense without being deluded by emotions.

This sounds familiar, i seen a video on youtube about this guy, cant recall his name that had a expedition out there at the crash site, and found hundreds of pieces of the material. He had them analized by the university of california, and the findings were astonishing. The aluminum material was not one found on earth. The material could be heated but not get hot, and cooled but not be cold. It also could be bent but go back to the original shape. I will find this hour long video again and post it tomarrow, too late for me tonight.

Originally posted by firemedic10
This sounds familiar, i seen a video on youtube about this guy, cant recall his name that had a expedition out there at the crash site, and found hundreds of pieces of the material. He had them analized by the university of california, and the findings were astonishing. The aluminum material was not one found on earth. The material could be heated but not get hot, and cooled but not be cold. It also could be bent but go back to the original shape. I will find this hour long video again and post it tomarrow, too late for me tonight.

Metal that bends back into shape is called "memory metal" and it's been around for a little while.

en.wikipedia.org...

Read the section about the application of "memory metal" in the aircraft industry. Looks like if these new fragments share the memory property then they might be from a crashed aircraft after all. A human aircraft!

Like i said i will post the video tomarrow. I dont recall the whole thing, but it had some legitimate claims, regardless if the metal that goes back to shape has been around, or not, the video is very mind blowing. Think outside the box of suffocate in it.

Originally posted by firemedic10
Like i said i will post the video tomarrow. I dont recall the whole thing, but it had some legitimate claims, regardless if the metal that goes back to shape has been around, or not, the video is very mind blowing. Think outside the box of suffocate in it.

I think that kind of thinking may get you stuffed in a box if you ever happen to be right. In all seriousness though, the alloy itself is unspectacular. I think it's more likely that it may be an odd piece of earth based wreckage. Everything about it is pretty conventional except a test that may not be accurate. If it had something unique about it I'd agree. But as I said despite the results of that test Magnesium with isotopic compositions outside the normal range do exist on earth or we wouldn't know about them. So that idea doesn't tie it to another planet entirely, even if it were correct.

Kimbler went to the University of New Mexico Institute of Meteoritics, and talked to their expert on isotopes to get an analysis done. Kimbler had not told the expert anything about the samples. He looked Kimbler “square in the eye” and told him that the only reason he would want to get this sort of test done is because he suspected the material was from outer space. He wanted to know where the material was from, and when Kimbler told him he refused to do the test, stating that the idea of a spaceship crashing at Roswell was “a bunch of hooey.” One of the other scientists in the office actually argued the point that if it is something unusual, the importance of that possibility makes it worth taking a look at. However, the expert didn’t budge and refused to do the work. The second scientist was a micro-probe specialist at the University and although he could not do any isotope work, he was able to get more specific information about the material’s composition and confirm the early work that had been done.

This whole chunk of article makes zero sense to me. It sounds way too sensationalist. It's like supplemental reading that is supposed to help reinforce certain ideas while further perpetuating the 'mystery' out of all this.

Skeptics: What are you up to by denying it's not from Earth? Have you not studied Astronomy, of course you haven't but I have. So what is so impossible or skeptic about the possibility that this from an asteroid/meteoirte? Don't you know that from the 3 types of meteorites, one is made up of rock, the other type is made up of mixture of rock and metal, third are made up of metal, so what is so impossible about an outer-space isotope of an element not found on earth? No one is talking about aliens here, merely science, merely a meteorite. Let's not get from not believing in aliens, to not believing in perfectly normal things like that.

Believers: So what makes you think it has to be of alien technology? It could be simply from meteorite, many cosnsist of metal elements and different isotopes of them, it doesn't have to be frm alien craft. In fact, since the alien stories are so far and their landing on earth questionable, this seems more like the best expanation - space object. not alien.

reply to post by Imtor


It could be a meteorite, but the material is a known alloy of aluminum that is used in construction, and it has the appearance of being manufactured. Therefore it would be quite a coincidence for a meteor to be made up of a material that is both a known alloy and looks to be manufactured.

The issue isn't the alloy itself. The issue is the ratios of isotopic magnesium in the alloy....

All magnesium found naturally-occurring on Earth has a certain "signature" of ratios of the three stable isotopes of magnesium. The OP's article is trying to argue that the test showed that these ratios are off, meaning that the magnesium used to make this aluminum is NOT naturally-occurring on Earth. It could be argued that the magnesium used cam from a meteorite, but that would be EXTREMELY unlikely considering the way aluminum is manufactured.

However, as I pointed out in my previous posts, even though the author of that article made it sound as if there is a descrepancy in the ratios of Mg isotopes in the sample of material, there REALLY IS NO DISCREPANCY in the ratio of Mg isotopes. The supposed discrepancy is not that great, was within the stated margin of error, and is virtually non-existent when compared with other measured values for the isotopic ratio.

As I said in my other posts, the measured ratio for the three isotopes of naturally-occurring Earth Mg varies, depending on who measured it and the source of the material being measured. The author claims the "mystery sample" of the aluminum allow is unlike earth aluminum because of the wrong ratio of isotopic Mg -- HOWEVER, the ratios are perfectly consistent with the ratio of Earth Mg as measured by other reputable people...

...meaning there is no real Mg discrepancy, and the aluminum alloy seems like a normal Earth-made metal.

Wouldn't there be a way to tell if these were from a meteorite/asteroid via other forms of testing?

Originally posted by beauty from pain
Wouldn't there be a way to tell if these were from a meteorite/asteroid via other forms of testing?

That is the test they use to find that out. I'm not sure if there is any other way. Keep in mind that simply being from another place doesn't mean the alloy itself came from or was manufactured somewhere other than earth. It could easily have been manufactured on earth and it just so happens that the Magnesium in that alloy was from a meteorite. If all of the metals in the alloy showed the wrong composition then it would be a "smoking gun" to the idea of it being manufactured somewhere besides earth.

Originally posted by beauty from pain
Wouldn't there be a way to tell if these were from a meteorite/asteroid via other forms of testing?

I'm not sure -- but the test concluded that the composition of the alloy itself was a common form of aluminum manufactured on Earth and used in construction, and had the appearance of being manufactured.

One way to tell if all of the materials used in the alloy came from Earth is by measuring the ratio of isotopic Magnesium in the alloy. The isotopic ratio of the magnesium in the "mystery sample" was slightly different than the standard the lab (in the OP's article) used as their standard for naturally-occurring Earth magnesium -- and this is what threw up the red flag in the OP's article. However, the ratio in the sample was NOT that different than other standards for isotopic ratios of Mg. As I noted before, there seems to be a variation in what is considered "normal" for the ratio of isotopes of naturally-occurring Earth magnesium.

It should be noted that the measured value of isotope 26^Mg in the sample was measure to be lower than expected (but still within known limits for Earthly magnesium), but according to This Article, 26^Mg values in meteorites are expected to be higher than the value of Earth magnesium.

So, even though the test was vague and inconclusive, it did show a lower amount of 26^Mg than what would be expected of a meteor -- an amount that is consistent with the idea that it is simply a normal earth-made piece of aluminum.

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People

Originally posted by justwokeup
I can see 4 possibilities here:

1. The tests are wrong, its a common earth alloy
2. Its a naturally occurring alloy of extraterrestrial origin (a meteorite)
3. Its an alloy worked using an element taken from a meteorite
4. Its a fragment of a crashed UFO

justwokeup --

I was about to ask if #3 was possible.

Do you (or anyone else out there) know if it is unheard of for a manufactured alloy to include material that may have come from a meteorite? I realize it would not be common, and most likely would be unintentional, but is there any evidence of this happening?

I assume that a large enough meteor impact may yield a relatively large localized area of elemental magnesium with this isotopic ratio. How likely or unlikely might it be for this elemental magnesium from a meteorite to be used in the production of aluminum? Has this been known to happen?

I'm not a metallurgist, so I have absolutely no idea (hence my questions).

edit on 7/13/2011 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)

Makes one wonder if some crop circle jerk got the idea to fabricate a relic from a meteorite and then tossed it on the ground at a controversial ufologist monument to stir the pot... knowing one day some enthusiastic researcher would find it and his wildest dreams realized once the lab results provided 'other than earthly' results. Might have even been the actual discoverer themselves...

Reminds me of the 'Star Child' hooplah personally,,,

At the same website as the article linked in the OP, there is an interview of Frank Kimbler, the discoverer of the metal fragments under discussion. In it, he reports that he has discussed the skewed isotope ratios with two different scientists, knowledgeable in such matters. They both agree that there are only two reasonable explanations for these ratios. 1.) The lab made a mistake. This is possible, of course, but highly unlikely. The lab he took the material to has multiple certifications. This means that they have a history of doing consistently reliable work. 2.) The initial results were correct. This material, which is of an obviously manufactured nature, is not from this planet. Mr. Kimbler reports that new tests will be made within a few weeks. These should settle the matter, one way or the other. I urge anyone seriously interested in this matter, and who has not already done so, to listen to the interview, and read the linked article in full. Nothing is certain at this point, of course. I think, however, that it might be prudent to also set aside a few minutes to contemplate what it would mean, and what would begin to happen, if it should be revealed that there is finally scientific proof of an extraterrestrial civilization visiting this planet. Interview available at: www....(nolink)/videos

Originally posted by Heyyo_yoyo
Makes one wonder if some crop circle jerk got the idea to fabricate a relic from a meteorite and then tossed it on the ground at a controversial ufologist monument to stir the pot...

Bet that would net enough for a new car

Now where did I put my meteorites....

reply to post by Ross 54

I wish his two scientists would explain it then, because what I've read about the subject doesn't seem to match up with what they are saying. If I'm not understanding it correctly, then I would like to know what it is I am not understanding (rather than me just taking the word of Mr. Kimblers's two scientists).

According to what I've read (and have posted those sources before), the ratio of of the isotopes of naturally-occurring stable magnesium found on Earth can slightly vary depending on the sample being tested, usually due to where the sample was found. Granted, it's all very similar -- only off by fraction of a % -- but it DOES vary slightly.

The values that Mr. Kimbler's lab used for the ratios of naturally-occurring magnesium isotopes do not match up exactly with others values I have found. However, as I just said, the measured value is known to vary, so that's not really an issue. However, these other values I found are slightly closer to the values found in the aluminum alloy Mr. Kimbler had tested, so it does raise this question:

What is the amount of deviation of Mr. Kimbler's sample versus the 'expected value' that would cause most scientists to say "It isn't an Earth-made aluminum alloy."

This is one of my main questions that I would like the two scientists or Mr. Kimbler's to answer, because the variations in Mr. Kimbler's aluminum alloy look in line with the expected values.

For example, the values I saw listed by the National Isotope Development Center being run by the Oak Ridge National Laboratory are as follows:

24^Mg = 78.99%
25^Mg = 10.00%
26^Mg = 11.01%

Source: Oak Ridge National Laboratory


The values for the ratio of Mg isotopes in Mr. Kimbler's aluminum sample that he had tested were as follows:

24^Mg = 79.1% +/- 0.5%
25^Mg = 10.1% +/- 0.5%
26^Mg = 10.8% +/- 0.5%


I did the math for you to show the difference between the expected value as defined by the Oak Ridge Lab (labeled below as "Expected") and the tested value of Mr. Kimbler's aluminum sample (labeled below as "Alum. Tested"):


Isotope____Expected____Alum. Tested___Difference

24^Mg_____78.99%_______79.1%_______+0.11%
25^Mg_____10.00%_______10.1%_______+0.10%
26^Mg_____11.01%_______10.8%_______- 0.21%


As you can see, the differences were small -- and well within the +/- 0.5% stated margin of error by Mr. Kimbler's lab. I realize I am using a different source for my "Expected Values" than Mr. Kimbler's lab did, but it seems from everything I read on the subject, these values are AT LEAST as valid as the ones used by Mr. Kimbler's lab. Even if we use the values from Mr. Kimbler's lab, the difference still falls within the stated margin of error.

I'm not saying there is absolutely no chance that Mr. Kimbler's aluminum doesn't have isotopic magnesium ratios that are not of the earth. I'm only asking for a more complete explanation from Mr. Kimbler or his two scientists as to why they say the aluminum is not Earthly, because I'm not quite seeing how the data is telling us that.

Soylent - I like you.

Thanks for answering some questions I had.

Has there been any follow up to this? What was the name of the lab he took that had credentials?

As interesting as it would be, there is nothing evidential to hold that to be so? If the Roswell incident was not perhaps part of Operation Paperclip, then perhaps beings from the Cosmos whom may have crashed at Roswell? I would think the search party would have arrived by now????