Is the ET belief the same as the belief in trolls, fairies, goblins, and pixies of the medieval time

Personally, I don't think it is. There is solid proof that aliens exist (if you ask the believers) and many people believe that our governments and secret services are hiding crucial information and perhaps are communicating and working alongside aliens. I, however, tend to believe that our governments have a very good reason for being so secretive over UFO/alien phenomenon.

reply to post by MathematicalPhysicist


I'm not saying the story wasn't a real story, but your first response was from the daily mail. It's not really a source you wan't you use if you wish to sound credible.

Plus what do you mean common sense. Your saying that its common sense to believe in ET's or not to? You have confused me.

Anyways, you do even know how extra solar planets are even found? The way you are putting it is that scientists have put probes on every planet and star system in a 20 light year radius. We can see the effects of these planets, not the actual planets themselves.

Hypothetically the planets around Gliese 581 could have huge cities on them. Nobody has seen the surface on these planets, so who is to say they don't exist.

Just because astronomers haven't found these places doesn't mean that they do not exist.

My point is that we haven't been to a single planet, we have been to our moon and put a couple of robots on mars, yet we haven't been anywhere else. We have not seen the surface of any planet outside of our solar system, so we don't know what is on the surface of said planets.

I am not saying that intelligent aliens exist, what I am saying is that we simply don't know.

What you are doing is getting information about a star system discovered several years ago, that astronomers think may be similar to Earth in mass and size, then deciding that that's all we have discovered, and that because life hasn't been found on the planets in the Gliese 581 system, that it cannot exist.

At this point in time, the planets in the Gliese 581 system are but a faint shadow on the surface of their star.

Originally posted by MathematicalPhysicist
Here's anothersource. Or is this not credible enough?

Well Gliese 581 is 21.5 light years away and if they don't believe there is intelligent life there in the Goldilocks Zone...

Then WHY are they sending messages there?

HELLO FROM EARTH
www.hellofromearth.net...

So I would say that contradicts your premise that all scientists are sure there is no life



Clarke's First Law:

"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."

Originally posted by derst1988We could, but I believe it would be an injustice to reality. You speak of the implausibility of interstellar travel, yet I have to ask what math you are using to determine that? Math that was created here on earth with variables from man's mind? I suppose we could have followed this logic, tho we may have never been able to get wonderful helicopter cam footage, as according to math it was impossible for a helicopter to exist.

Not just mathematics, but physical evidence (experimentation) as well. Can you elaborate on that? According to which math was the helicopter an impossibility? Mathematics is never wrong, our use of axioms, however, has been and will be proven wrong, but mathematics is not to be faulted for that.

Originally posted by derst1988As for the mental health correlation, i would like to point out the word correlation, as opposed to causation. Too many people rely on the correlation of things for proof of causation.

It is true that correlation does not imply causation, however, when studies have been done to show that alien abductions are a byproduct of physiological and mental health problems, what can we conclude? That our methodology is faulty and that extraterrestrials are really abducting people and performing experiments on them, bringing them back to their bed before they know it?

Originally posted by derst1988NASA has found life to exist in arsenic. Article Now of course, life was never thought to be able to exist there, as it was never thought to exist in many harsh locales in the world. Yet, here we are, older and wiser, now in the know of these things. Basically, until we have seen first hand what is on other planets, even within our own solar system, we dont know if there is life present.


Sure we can assume, that because the conditions are not adequate for human life, that life cannot be supported on that particular planet. This is where erroneous though comes in, for fish are different, and need vastly different requirements than us, to sustain life. Why is the same not possible on Saturn, for instance?

Bacterial life does not imply intelligent life. Yes, we may find the star systems within 20 light years of us filled with bacterial life, but no signs of intelligent life capable of interstellar travel have yet to be found. If any intelligent life were to look in our solar system, they would detect intelligent life within an instant even though we are not capable of interstellar travel, with all of our satellites and probes, it is kind of difficult to leave no trace at all.

Originally posted by derst1988This is simply not true. Its apparent, you would know that Gleiss has a exo-planet within the "goldilocks zone" of being able to sustain human life. Once again the key words are "human life".

And, yet, no signs of a civilization that is capable of interstellar travel. Why is that?

Originally posted by derst1988This thread describes a encounter and has had science applied to it. It seemsto allude that the hair is of hominoid origin of an unknown type,

ATS Thread

Yes, and it has been shown that scientists came to the conclusion: "Instead, though apparently 'human', the hair showed five distinctive DNA markers that are characteristic of a rare sub-group of the Chinese Mongoloid racial type." Lab results show that this is not something of extraterrestrial origins, as its origins are traced back to Earth.

reply to post by MathematicalPhysicist
I agree with the points you make in the OP.

Space is incredibly vast and travelling through it involves periods of time we can barely conceive of. A quick visit to Pluto at the speed of light takes over 6 hours. From there to the nearest star is over four years. In the time it takes to get to next star we've gone from farming populations to wi-fi internet.

This is where the cognitive dissonance kicks in. All that distance makes ideas of visiting intelligences unlikely.

On the other hand, there have been incidents that strongly suggest something technologically advanced is in our skies. The origins of this apparent technology is open to question. One example (of many) is the Tehran incident...radar, jets scrambled, witnesses and documents on the NSA website from DIA and USAF concluding 'unidentified.'

Whatever it was, it interacted with Iranian interceptors and apparently disabled their ability to lock-on, fire missiles and respond to ground controllers. If you're interested, there's a pdf with declassified USAF/DIA, interviews with witnesses, statement by pilot and sketches right here.

Wishful thinking and beliefs in fairies don't explain the objective evidence in cases like this. It's an awkward concept to accept, but given the evidence in the Tehran case, is it unreasonable to speculate the possibility that there is something solid, physical and intelligent occasionally interacting with us?

Originally posted by yourmaker
I just want to touch on this.
Isn't it theoretically possible to create some sort of constant energetic reaction rather then using fuels?

Nope, because every stage of the reaction there is some energy lost as heat according to the second law of thermodynamics.

Originally posted by splittheatom
C is the speed of light in a vacuum. We can make EM waves travel faster than C when travelling through different mediums.

Bob Lazar, is that you?

Light is an EM wave and all EM waves have the same velocity, and though they may vary through different mediums, that is the speed limit of that medium and cannot be exceeded. In a vacuum, light travels uninterrupted by matter at its fastest speed (approximately 3.0 x 10^8 m/s) and its speed cannot be exceeded.

reply to post by MathematicalPhysicist


Ergh, I see there is no reasoning with you.

A simple mistake by me. The phase difference can be changed, not the actual speed itself, so it appears to be faster.

reply to post by zorgon


Nice Dragon
On: I dont think is constructive to mix demons,fairies, goblins with my extraterestrial friends .... i don't like this threads at all ... we are searching for Life ffs !! Trolls are dead

Originally posted by xavi1000
i don't like this threads at all ... we are searching for Life ffs !! Trolls are dead

Well yeah threads that state someone knows "for sure" always irk me. Especially scientists. All through history its been proven over and over again that when ever a scientist is sure of something, a new one comes along and blows the old theory out of the water.

Me? I have contacts I trust in the military that are not in the UFO circuit that tell me things... despite what some of those scientists that know everything say. So for me I have my proof The rest of you are on your own

As to Elves et al... Has it never occured to anyone that sightings in Medieval times are no different than today? Merely the terminology has changed

Eve talked to a serpent... today we would say she spoke with a reptilian... where is the difference?

They spoke of Demons back then... today we see in Hollywood beasts like in the movie 'Alien' or 'Predator'... one look at the likes of those... demons seems a good a description as any

Elves? Today we have Vulcans and Romulans with the same lithe figures and pointed ears

Trolls? Small weird looking creatures that live underground... today its the Grays living underground at Dulce

Back then they saw "flaming chariots' and "angels traveling in clouds'... today we see colorful UFO's and glowing orbs

Nothing has changed... only the terminology of the day

Originally posted by MathematicalPhysicist
Although most UFO's have been explained away by either man-made objects (weather balloons, oil rigs, light-houses etc.) or by physical phenomena (celestial bodies, lights shining off birds, auroral phenomena, etc.). Granted, there is a small 5% that cannot be explained by scientific means, that does not imply they are alien controlled space-craft of interstellar origins. It is much more reasonable and logical to believe, without evidence, they are top-secret military technology, although it is quite faulty as that would imply that military scientists have a great deal of knowledge that is unknown to scientists in academia or in the private industry.

Of all millions that have reported to supposedly being abducted by aliens, none have taken the initiative to at the very least a string of evidence? All it would take is one string of DNA and lab testing that is conclusive of
non-earth origins to prove to the masses that we are being visited by aliens.

If you believe they were here to help us build the pyramids and teach us the sciences, then why did they leave or stop making contact right when human civilization began to grow at unimaginable rates? That doesn't add up, I'm afraid.

Astronomers have examined 20 light years of our solar system's radius and can conclude that there is no life on any other star system within 20 light years of us. This implies that the minimum travel time required for an advanced alien civilization to reach us is >20 years. Time dilation only occurs in the traveler's perspective, so tens of thousands of years could pass on their home planet while they are "spying on us", so the coordinators and engineers that bid them farewell would be long dead by the time they return. This does not take into consideration the ENORMOUS energy expenditures and fuel requirement. It takes approximately 5.47 * 10^17 J (547000000000000000 J) to accelerate 1 KG of mass to 99% (0.99c) of the speed of light. With all of Canada's energy expenditure in a year (converted from kilowatt hours to joules), you can only accelerate 3.5 KG of mass to 99% of the speed of light. According to UFO reports, they can range from as small as the size of the 3 combined basketballs and as big as a mile across. I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that UFO's that small would carry the fuel requirement needed to accelerate to 99% of the speed of light, and convert it to energy to be used to do work, which contradicts all of our known laws of thermodynamics as during conversion, some energy is lost as heat during every stage of conversion which implies an even greater fuel requirement than was needed with 100% efficient conversion to energy. The larger UFO's (mile across) would require exhausting the resources of entire planets, and other energy needed for "shields" to protect against all forms of space debris that are normally harmless at lower speeds, can collide with the force of a fission nuclear explosion with an object traveling at relativistic speeds. All of that trouble just to spy on us humans?

With no physical evidence of aliens, compounded with the infeasibility of interstellar travel to just spy on humans, along with the millions of abduction reports that heavily correlate with mental health issues, can we not conclude that belief in ET is the modern belief of yesterday's trolls, fairies, goblins, and pixies?

edit on 8-7-2011 by MathematicalPhysicist because: (no reason given)

"conclude" - Absolutely no, as that would be scientifically unsound. It is a real possibility however, there is NO denying as much. The other angle is that all these fairies, elves, goblins, trolls, may in fact have a basis in reality. We cannot discount that no matter how absurd it seems. That IS science my friend, and there is NO denying that.

Originally posted by zorgon


Me? I have contacts I trust in the military that are not in the UFO circuit that tell me things... despite what some of those scientists that know everything say. So for me I have my proof

The rest of you are on your own

One question if you dont mind about that guys who do you trust in military and you with all that experience .... Are anyone in US military till now has close personal contact with EBE and that contact is recorded somewhere like official document?

reply to post by MathematicalPhysicist



I wonder why folks respond to posts such as this. My experience shows that being so adamant about your conclusions precludes any possible change of belief or attitude, very much like a religious bent of character.

That said, I won't bother sharing what I and other near me have experienced, it would be a waste of effort. However, goblins and such of old may in fact be the very same as many see today, including a close relative of mine. Nuff said.

Very old and actually rather known theory, Jacques Vallee was/is one of the known ones who wrote some good books about it.

As for you other points, you assume too much.

The thought alone that a hypothetical race could be 1000s, 10.000s or millions of years MORE advanced than us is staggering - can not even remotely grasp what such a technology would be able to achieve - PHYSICAL LAWS do not need to be broken.

The limits of FTL travel? Who cares if they can bend space/time and maybe use wormholes to fly wherever they want to? A technology 10.000 years more advanced than us might be able to do this, or use other means of totally controlling space/time for their purposes.

Originally posted by Kandinsky
I agree with the points you make in the OP.

Space is incredibly vast and travelling through it involves periods of time we can barely conceive of. A quick visit to Pluto at the speed of light takes over 6 hours. From there to the nearest star is over four years. In the time it takes to get to next star we've gone from farming populations to wi-fi internet.

This is where the cognitive dissonance kicks in. All that distance makes ideas of visiting intelligences unlikely.

On the other hand, there have been incidents that strongly suggest something technologically advanced is in our skies. The origins of this apparent technology is open to question. One example (of many) is the Tehran incident...radar, jets scrambled, witnesses and documents on the NSA website from DIA and USAF concluding 'unidentified.'

Whatever it was, it interacted with Iranian interceptors and apparently disabled their ability to lock-on, fire missiles and respond to ground controllers. If you're interested, there's a pdf with declassified USAF/DIA, interviews with witnesses, statement by pilot and sketches right here.

Wishful thinking and beliefs in fairies don't explain the objective evidence in cases like this. It's an awkward concept to accept, but given the evidence in the Tehran case, is it unreasonable to speculate the possibility that there is something solid, physical and intelligent occasionally interacting with us?

Indeed. There are a number of reports that cannot be explained away by other physical earthly or celestial phenomena or known (emphasis on known) man-made phenomena and are legitimate. It is much more reasonable to believe, without evidence, that these are top-secret military technology. I can entertain such a claim, although it has holes as it suggests a major cover-up that scientists in the military are decades ahead in laws and theories that is not known to scientists in academia and industry. However, to say they are controlled by alien entities from star systems that are more than 20 light years away without any shred of evidence is intellectual dishonesty and the individual making such claims is delusional.

Astronomers have examined 20 light years of our solar system's radius and can conclude that there is no life on any other star system within 20 light years of us.

This is not meant as an attack, but i think this statement is really, really dumb.

First, its not an astronomer's job to look for life on other planets, i think the correct profession here would be exobiologists?

20 light years are nothing...but just for fun i just did a quick googling "closest stars" and it comes up with pretty good list of stars which are closer than 20LY incl. SiriusA/B etc... i HIGHLY doubt there has been extensive research done with ALL those stars and possible planets have been already excluded. Reason being that it can be difficult to even spot (== measure) planets around other stars, a science which just VERY RECENTLY has begun. (I am talking a few years where its *just recently* possible to detect other planets around other stars)

But...the point is that your logic implies "conventional" space travel - which i simply think would not apply, i dont think "they" move "from A to B" but instead use some advanced techniques like wormholes...so distances and FTL-limit problem must not even apply.

Also..lets not forget that the origin of UFOs assumed ALIENS from outer space is just one theory, although the best known one of course.

Originally posted by flexy123

This is not meant as an attack, but i think this statement is really, really dumb.

First, its not an astronomer's job to look for life on other planets, i think the correct profession here would be exobiologists?

Do you forget about the many astronomers that were employed by the SETI? Yes, you are correct that it isn't an Astronomer's expertise to look for life, but there were many employed by SETI to do just that.

Originally posted by flexy12320 light years are nothing...but just for fun i just did a quick googling "closest stars" and it comes up with pretty good list of stars which are closer than 20LY incl. SiriusA/B etc... i HIGHLY doubt there has been extensive research done with ALL those stars and possible planets have been already excluded. Reason being that it can be difficult to even spot (== measure) planets around other stars, a science which just VERY RECENTLY has begun. (I am talking a few years where its *just recently* possible to detect other planets around other stars)

Of course, extensive research requires extensive funding and grants. However, there was research conducted and it concluded that they do not harbor any form of intelligent life. Hypothetically, let's say there exists a civilization that is exactly on our level and is looking for intelligent life. As soon as they look into our solar system, without extensive research, they can easily conclude that Earth harbors intelligent life due to all of the radio waves we emit as well as all of the probes and satellites we have in orbit and throughout our solar system. If we, a civilization that isn't even close to accomplishing manned interstellar travel, can't hide our footprint, how possible is it a civilization that can accomplish manned interstellar travel with relative ease can hide theirs? We may discover bacteria, yes, but that is all.

Originally posted by flexy123But...the point is that your logic implies "conventional" space travel - which i simply think would not apply, i dont think "they" move "from A to B" but instead use some advanced techniques like wormholes...so distances and FTL-limit problem must not even apply.

This is silly. Wormholes only exist in the world of mathematics, not in the real-world. They have no possible practical applications at all and are an engineering fantasy.

Originally posted by flexy123Also..lets not forget that the origin of UFOs assumed ALIENS from outer space is just one theory, although the best known one of course.

It is, by far, the worst theory out there to explain it as there is no evidence whatsoever.

I would like to address the point of interstellar travel. I have a theory that I think is very plausible and would explain quite a bit from what we hear about alien craft.
It is known that time slows down when you either travel faster or you are in a large gravitational field. That being said the ability to manipulate the speed of time around you is very much within the realm of possibility. If you take a civilization that's much more advanced than we are it is likely they can manipulate time in such a matter through artificial means. But not only being able to slow down time, as when you are traveling fast or in a gravitational field, but perhaps able to also speed up time as well.
Now supposing that aliens have this technology they could apply it to all their craft. In essence they would speed up the time around their craft and travel long distances in short time compared to 'real time'. Think about it, you hear about craft all of sudden taking off at incredible speeds but what they are really doing is speeding up the time around their craft and really only traveling around 50mph. But from the perspective of someone not within the increased time field it would look like they are just moving really fast. This would also explain why they don't make sonic booms when they take off like that.
Back to interstellar travel. So depending on how fast they could increase the speed of time they could cut say a million year journey down to maybe a few years. Now you might be thinking even if they can cut the journey down that much the beings in the craft are still going to age the million years because time is increased for them too. Not so if time is also manipulated inside the craft to be slower. In fact it could be slowed down to where hardly any time goes by at all. This might sound out there but it seems plausible to me assuming aliens are visiting us.
Wait what about all the power it would take to do something like that? Well the power is all around them. Now that we know about dark matter and dark energy perhaps it could be used to power the craft. They would virtually have an unlimited power supply the entire trip.
So is it plausible? I think so. So when you say it's impossible for them to travel here I think our puny human brains just can't conceive every possible scenario.
Hope I didn't bore you guys..I have an overactive imagination.

reply to post by MathematicalPhysicist

Indeed, but we have never observed ANY form of phenomena that contradicts any of our prominent laws of physics. Science is not complete, yes, but the burden of proof is on them to prove that the established laws of physics are faulty and can be breached by means of experimentation and or mathematical proof. If they can't, then there assumptions hold no weight and cannot and should not be taken seriously.

as I understand it creating wormholes is theoretically possible. 2 major problems though

1. you would need a "wormhole gate" at each location in the galaxy so they would need to travel through normal space first and build the gate near earth. Then they can activate the gate at their home planet and take the shortcut here.

2. It takes a bonkers amount of energy to create even a wormhole a few microns in diameter never mind big enough so a craft could travel through it. Its like the power of an entire star or something crazy.

but still you cant really argue with the fact we don't know everything. We don't fully know the possibilities so its a weak argument for skeptics to use. Like i said i agree with your other points

reply to post by MathematicalPhysicist

Is the ET belief the same as the belief in trolls, fairies, goblins, and pixies of the medieval time

No, I think it is much, much different for this very simple reason: there is tremendous expenditure among a wide range of astrobiologists, exo-planetary scientists, and yes, even mathematical physicists in professional, governmental, and academic -funded programs to substantiate ET (extraterrestrial life) on other worlds.

Conversely, I don't believe there is much funding or peer-reviewed literature documenting current efforts to confirm the existence of trolls, fairies, goblins, and pixies.

You may have been able to make such a correlation in centuries past, but I think there is huge cadre of scientific discipline attached to the search for life on other worlds in the cosmos - little to none for the 'others'.

Interesting question, OP. But really quite simple to answer once thought is given to it.