Why This Lovely Woman Does NOT Support The Troops - Amazing Video

Originally posted by CrashUnderrideI agree with her. After this I went and watched the "Collateral Murder" video and I must say, I got physically sick. Makes me ashamed to not only be American, but a human being as well.

Well, depending on which edited version you saw and your lack of combat experience and skills sets of friend foe and knowledge of the ROE – you might indeed come to that conclusion.
I; however, having a different set of skills experience and knowledge come to a totally different conclusion.

Originally posted by SFA437Saw that video too. My conclusion was that sometimes stupidity is fatal.

I basically came to the same conclusion SFA437 did but I said it in a lot more words with pictures for those who are slow.

Originally posted by Golf66
OK, I am new to ATS so perhaps this has been covered to death but some posts are new so I’m going to take a swing at it.

There are many versions of this video on the net both longer and shorter than the one I chose to use as the basis for my analysis. I watched the once I chose (below) basically 3-4 times stopping to go frame by frame at certain points.

Bottom line up front I will have to just say that this appears to be a completely legitimate engagement within the ROE at the time and in no way violated any laws of war.

The crying man in the OP’s video sort of corroborates that the guys were armed when he says he saw weapons in the area but anyways just to help assuage some American Guilt: This kid sounds like he needs a hug to me glad he didn't stay in the Army but I digress...

Here is the video I chose:

Ok here is where I saw and heard about weapons: Understand this is Gun –cam and it’s been copied from a copy of a copy of a copy likely from an original that was saved in a lower resolution to save disk space in the archive in which it is stored.

You are not going to see what the original gunner saw; what they saw was likely very clear to them.

So put into perspective that you are basically going to see dark shadows of featureless weapons not color (no obvious – oh look an AK!) – when scanning look for long darks shapes in the hands of the Baddies and the movement’s they make while carrying them.

Sometimes you can get a good look at the magazine in the well and or a sling swinging which is still just a dark silhouette.

First there is a dismounted element in the AO that reports the men moving along the road with RPG's and AK 47s. I assume he saw them, there is no way to know for sure but no real reason to dispute this. He (Don't really know what level of leader) is probably a squad leader SSG/E-6 at least. I think this is a platoon operating with 2 Apaches and probably an OH58 in support. I have no real way of knowing other than that's common.

**Also, note at this point one of the key things in an insurgency is to blend into the population, carrying firearms openly in Iraq was very common until we took over and still having one is some sort of status symbol for men. However, now the people have been told to carry weapons openly will get you shot without question or comment – no effort to shot at us is required (just having it is enough). That said, one of the common techniques is to carry the weapon around with the butt stock tucked up under the arm with the weapon parallel to your body holding it where the upper receiver and barrel meet over the magazine. It makes it harder to bring to the ready position but less of an iconic “soldier with a weapon at the ready” silhouette. Also, it is common for them to ditch them behind, under cars if they think they are being watched by air. That said seeing a Baddies with one is enough to open up on him. We don’t wait to see what his intent is. **


So again, you have a guy on the ground who is experienced and explaining that he saw armed men and pointed them out to the Air Assets. Who repeatedly made sure that they were talking about the same group by explaining what he was seeing to the ground guy. (Some of them may have ditched them when they realized they were being tracked which is common - like drug dealers throwing the bags when the cops chase them.) Then there is this first sighting...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d045d2e7027a.jpg[/atsimg]

I saw this at 1:44-1:46 in the video and I see a Baddies with an RPG (long cylindrical silhouette with larger conical grenade at business end) facing down the crossroad as the main body of the group passes by.

He is not in the fire but the ready position with the weapon at a 45 degree angle pointing down and facing left off the page down the road they are crossing. That fits protocol for crossing a danger area, He's pulling security for the force as they move.

I can see the Journalists there as well with perhaps camera bags or something over their shoulders. However, what is distracting later the Gunner follows the guy who appears to be in front and looks to not have a weapon. By the ROE they need nothing else to fire them all up.

Now I said Journalists, because I now know what they are – to the Gunner’s and Soldiers they have no idea who they are as they don’t have any (Hey! Yellow jackets or red hats or whatever, that say we are non-baddies or Journalists.) The Gunner and Soldiers have no idea what their intent is even if they see the cameras clearly, it is quite normal for the Baddies’ to film their operations for propaganda later in case they get some good death scenes of Americans on there.

I'm sure you have seen the videos on you-tube or Aljazz.

So back to the action:

Next the gunner panns off the lead guy and goes back to the next rank. Here at 2:06-2:13 you can watch the two guys walk and see them holding the weapons (Ok again silhouettes and long darks shapes to us.) against their sides but they swing (especially at 2:11 the guy to the left has an AK bigger than Stuttgart.) out as they walk and you can make out the shape of the AK, you can see the magazine silhouette and the sling the distinctive AK shape. (Watch the weapons swing as they walk – it’s the tell.)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c61686346437.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/09da09deb55e.jpg[/atsimg]

Even watch as the guy in the middle notices the Air Asset and hides his weapon by facing away and hiding it from the bird.

Later at 2:21 they get the order to fire but the Baddies, know they are busted and congregate near an alley way (Perhaps some of them ditching their weapons as well.) Then between 2:30-2:38 you can see the guy with an RPG peak around the corner and point it at the AH64. (Look at the conical shape of the grenade as he peaks around.)

Later on after the troops arrive Bushmaster 4 says “One of them has an unexploded RPG Grenade wedged under his body. They speculate as to if its fins are out and thus been fired and contemplate calling EOD for removal.

So, one of the dead Baddies had a RPG somewhere and a young American with no real reason to lie finds the evidence. It would take one heck of a conspiracy for the birds to talk to the Soldiers and say “Hey, we may have screwed up talk about evidence on the radio when you get here to help us out”. Also, they would have had to have that conversation on the radio which is monitored at the CP. Implicating some Field Grade Officer would just go with it…..not likely.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7e8f3f1ad786.jpg[/atsimg]

Why is the urgency to fire so high after they see Baddies with the RPG? It is because the RPG can knock out the Apache if the Baddies gets a lucky hit. (Like Somalia and some Baddies will be a hero for taking out 8 million dollar Aircraft.) To much risk of political victory there.

Again, the guy on the ground H26 call sign says at 2:50 or so that they had a guy shooting at them, they don't need this tidbit to engage but it shows that in addition to the weapons he has seen they now are indeed hostile and shooting at the Soldiers on the ground which is the whole point of having the Apache there - to protect them so they can win. Sort of like showing up to a knife fight with a cannon - it ensures victory.

My maximum as a Commander was never send a Soldier to do what a bomb or a bullet can accomplish just as well – we can always get more bombs and bullets don't bleed.

Ok, there is nothing I could garner from the part of the video in which second request to open fire on what some have said is obviously an attempt to take the wounded to a hospital, other than that we see an unmarked van (not an ambulance) moving into an area that the units just engaged hostiles.

They might indeed be good Samaritans. I highly doubt they are Samaritans; however, the Baddies know our operational methods and would be a total idiot to go in there and try to get a guy out when he knows we have an infantry unit with very trained combat medics coming in who will evacuate any wounded to a Military Hospital that is likely way more effective than any local facility at treating trauma.

More likely they are there to get the Baddies (Who are probably members of a n insurgent cell, who will out thier IDs to the IP) so we can't take a prisoner and make him talk. (You know with our evil interrogators.)

That aside, they could just as likely have a truck load of dudes in that van with all manner of weaponry who could do a lot of damage to the dismounted infantry coming into the area to secure it.

It’s the Apache's job to provide over watch and reduce any possible threat to the personnel.

If one were to err I think I would err on the side of making sure they were not a threat first; which they did, they fired them up as was the call from the Commander of the ground troops (not the gunner, not some 18 year old kid the Unit Commander) prior to the infantry getting into the AO. That’s in the Radio traffic before they engage the van. War is hell but that’s why Commanders make that call so they can take the blame should someone disagree.

At 23:14 - I see this which tells me it’s probably a cordon and search OP looking for some Baddies' they need for interrogation. Probably on a CI hit list of some kind.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e8e0ffeb5b0b.jpg[/atsimg]

Hey, guess what crying kid says that too...

Some kids get shot in the engagement that were likely in the van when the Baddies decided they should go get their buddies so they don’t get ousted to the IP (whom they do, and should fear).

This is confirmed by the traumatized young man in the OP’s video.

It was likely a split second bad decision on their part to save their terrorist buddies and completely their fault for taking their kids into the engagement zone - tragic and sad but thier fault.

Baddies are told through TV commercials, leaflets, to the kids in school to avoid areas of shooting – and that we will evacuate and treat any casualties.

Then again another technique is to commit suicide by checkpoint with your kids in the car. To force the American’s to engage at the roadblock by not responding to their requests.

It is a calculated way to gain negative press for Americans and support for their casue. Don’t be naive and think the Baddies won’t sacrifice the kids for the cause…especially female children who are chattel to them.

You can see them putting one of the kids in the Bradley for EVAC:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d630bbece2bd.jpg[/atsimg]

This might even be the guy in the OP's video.

Then later at 30:40 or so Bushmaster 4 calls in that he has small arms fire 300 meters from the Objective at 200 degrees. So the Gunner pans over to that. At 31:07 it black screens and comes back after a second or so. They are looking for the Baddies who just fired.

At 31:13 you can clearly see the two guys with AKs holding them by their sides one dude has an ammo belt on. On him you can actually make out the magazine and handle grip on the weapon. (Again, understand silhouettes and shapes not clear pictures.


A they walk along they realize they are being tailed and the guy in back takes off across the street at a run you can see his weapon swing as he does. (Watch for the movement of how a man runs with a gun.) The guy toward the top of the page tried to hide the weapon between the wall and his body but you can see the silhouette.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/59040f39a2f6.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f2bafd19e90f.jpg[/atsimg]

So, there is my assessment: The Journalists picked the wrong side to cover I guess, they were not marked or known to be in the area. (it clearly would have given away their subjects the Baddies)

That is the risk they take, just like chaplains and other non-combatants in the war zone unarmed they take their chances to practice their profession. The Journalists who cover us do the same thing they run out and try to get film – they will stand up in stupid situations and make dumb ass moves. They are idiots not Soldiers.

The difference is Baddies have been known to specifically target our press guys so they can generate sympathy within the media for the war.

[B][I][U]I see this as totally justified.[/U][/I][/B]

What makes me qualified to opine: (you are free of course to disagre.)

I am certainly not all knowing or without personal bias but I am what one could (and military courts have in the past) consider a qualified and trained observer when it comes to combat engagements and ROE.

I am a career military person serving 24 years, over 15 of which is in special operations and Intelligence – culminating as a field grade officer who has performed numerous 15-6 investigations into the lawfulness of combat actions and circumstances surrounding friendly and enemy combat deaths.

NOTE: In the .ppt I made I called the Baddies - Hajji, its not a bad thing its like calling a Soldier a Joe or a Marine a Jar Head - just a short way to reffer to the them. I have fought them I definately have respect for my enemy.

edit on 14/1/2011 by Golf66 because: photo size errors

A bunch of unqualified and ignorant civilians making opinions about the ROE and lawful actions of Soldiers actions during a cordon and search mission in Iraq is about like me critiquing my Doctor's actions during a colonoscopy - he’s the expert I'm just the guy with the camera up my ass.

In the end ( get it?) he can see what is going on and can identify the issues and features - to me it all looks like crap!

Leave the war and the prosecution of it to the professionals boys and girls.

reply to post by gncnew


No, some of us are keenly aware that Walmart and faux-environmentalism is part of the problem. When a car company puts up a commercial to say that they've invented an engine that can handle all the fuel, even the ones that haven't been invented yet; or when people push biodiesel as a viable option; or when the latest new 3D hand-held distractor comes out, some of us also see these things with a critical eye as well.

It's the troops who make the war possible. I don't have such disdain for them. I feel sorry for them. I've heard too many people in my family make excuses for why joining is good. If you join, you are propping it all up. If you don't join, maybe they are cut down, or forced to do the draft - which would probably provoke the Vietnam era style protest movement, which would be a very good thing in my opinion. The apathetic and ignorant are free to be distracted when it is only those who are most propagandized or poorest who are joining. When everyone has an equal shot at being put into the war, then I think you will see where the true demographics rest.

**I also realized that she left out green cards, by the way. What's that line in Starship Troopers: "Enlistment guarantees citizenship." Art imitating life...

anybody falling for this whole dog eat dog, dog pitted against dog, 'if ya ain't with us , you agin'us' mentality used to divide here?.... well are you?

reply to post by Golf66


Well, that's the point isn't it.

Maybe a 1980s movie analogy would help.

We're the USAUSSR and the Iraqis and Afghans are the terroristsWolverines. I sit home in homeland drinking flavored vodka in motherland drinking vodka. You go kill the terrorists capitalist pigs, keeping our country flowing with oil free of oppression. Sounds like a plan.

There is no justification to the war, even if us "boys and girls" leave it to the real men to fight - I think the "real" men are a bit confused.

Originally posted by mrwupy
She has the right to say the things she said, as long as you understand the only reason she has that right is stronger people are willing to take up arms and defend her right to say it.

If she had said such a thing in 90% of the countries on this planet, her head would be on a pike before sunset.

She's nothing more than a very ignorant, unappreciative bitch. She has the right to be that though, cause people are willing to fight and die to give her that right.

Although I agree I also somehwat disagree...Do you honestly believe that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are in some way "securing our right for freedom of speech"??

She has a right to say what she says becuase of the REVOLUTIONARY SOLDIERS hundreds of years ago who fought for that right and instilled the constitution...she continues to have "this right" because there is a constitution that THOSE HEROES installed for us to abide by so you can call her a bitch...

These wars of the last decade have done absolutely nothing but given way for those "rights" you talk about to be erorded and eroded under Patriot Acts (ironic name) and so forth...

So sorry to burst your bubble but these wars of the last decade have done absolutely nothing to secrure the "rights" and "freedoms" we enjoyed before these wars...

The soldiers fighting in these current wars are fighting for profiteering and rich sociopaths under the guise of securing her right to complain and your right to call her a bitch...but I think everyone here including you is educated enough to know that just isn't true...

Iraq, Afghanistan, Lybia, Terrorists etc. aren't destroying our freedoms but one would think they are because of our "reaction" to their existence. Their existence fuels the fear that inspires the solutions that destroy our freedoms, from within.

so like I said I agree that there are true heroes that fought to install the consitution with our freedoms and those since that have fought to protect it from those who seek to destroy it and because of them she can say what she says, you can say what you say, and I can say what I said...doesn't mean all wars we get involved in are "for that purpose"...the wars of the last decade were absolutely NOT about protecting our freedoms...

reply to post by Sly1one


Agreed. We are not in a perpetual Revolutionary War or World War II. We can pretend that every new war is a continuation of those wars, but we are not in those contexts anymore and to live by those old mantras is pretty much an illusion.

The irony of that oft-parroted remark is that it's purpose is always to get the upper hand when no other argument can be made.

In other words, if you have a valid grievance with the wars or the troops, the other side can say "You can only say those (blasphemous/unpatriotic/ignorant) things because of the troops in the wars protecting your freedom of speech". It's some lame catch 22 that we're supposed to be beholden to so-called wars of freedom and as such we dare not question them lest we lose that very freedom.

It happens over and over again and its purpose is simply that of shutting down all argument to the contrary.

reply to post by Golf66


You are sick for the simple fact you refer to them as Hadji's this is just a way to make killing them ok same as calling Germans= Krouts, Vietnamese= Gooks, and Japanese= Japs its about creating a racially motivated bias that killing them is ok.
The simple fact of the matter is that the mission was never about freedom for Iraq it about occupation and puppet governments to be subservient to the US's demands. The people of Iraq will never stop fighting the US for that simple reason alone, would you stop fighting an occupying force if they invaded the US? I know that I would be just like the Iraqi people if a foreign government set up shop in the US, I would fight till they all left the nation, and that is Patriotism not Terrorism.

Get of your military high horse and see that those people in Iraq and other nations we are in do not want us there.
Insurgent to us is a "bad guy" to his country men he is a Patriot keep that in mind.

Originally posted by ParanoidAmerican
reply to post by Golf66

 

You are sick for the simple fact you refer to them as Hadji's this is just a way to make killing them ok same as calling Germans= Krouts, Vietnamese= Gooks, and Japanese= Japs its about creating a racially motivated bias that killing them is ok.
The simple fact of the matter is that the mission was never about freedom for Iraq it about occupation and puppet governments to be subservient to the US's demands. The people of Iraq will never stop fighting the US for that simple reason alone, would you stop fighting an occupying force if they invaded the US? I know that I would be just like the Iraqi people if a foreign government set up shop in the US, I would fight till they all left the nation, and that is Patriotism not Terrorism.

Get of your military high horse and see that those people in Iraq and other nations we are in do not want us there.

A huge portion of Iraqis do not fight Americans. The largest group is the Kurds, followed by the various Awakening Councils.

The ones who are fighting the US (as well as the Iraqi government) are typically Shia militias like Jeish Mehdi et. al. who are funded and supplied by Iran. Iran wishes to use Iraq as a buffer between it and Saudi which is the home of the Wahabbist sect of Sunni Islam. Saudi wanted Iraq as a buffer against Iran for the same reasons but the Iraqi Sunnis figured out that the Wahabbis were so nutters that the term "Wahabbi" is now synonymous with "terrorist" (not insurgent).

That being said if there was an occupation of the US by foreign powers I would be an insurgent in a heartbeat. I would not however expect people to cry if I got shot other than my family or friends.

Big boy rules apply in warfare. Everyone involved except the politicians and those like the woman in the video know the risks and roll the dice based on personal beliefs.

FWIW even though I rampantly disagree with her and many of her arguments are flawed to the point of being laughable I do applaud her for trying to think her way through an immensely complex issue. She's light years ahead of that orangey looking Ommpa-Loompa version of Elvira who is on the cover of magazines a lot lately.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


Jesus, I'm in the military and in Iraq right now as I'm typing this. I'm neither "dumb, evil, or morally compromised." My day to day JOB is basically military geek squad. On the simplest of terms I reload windows(xp,vista,7), device drivers, update patches, and troubleshoot every type of computer out there. The only time I touch a rifle is when I have to qualify, and at the present time since I'm deployed. This woman has no idea what the military is like if she thinks all we do is decapitate, rape and slaughter. Look every other war out there, they all have civilian casualties, friendly fire etc...If you think this war is any different your mistaken. HORRIFIC STUFF IS GOING TO HAPPEN!!! IT'S WAR-ZONE! I really don't care if this woman supports me or my wife(my wife is military as well) I have my family to do that for me.

I HATE being made a huge deal of what I am at the airport, when I go to the mall, or a restaurant on my lunch break because I'm in uniform and because of what i do! I'm just like one of you, I do my job and rather well I might add. I'm just a person doing his job for the same thing you are. I'm just working for the same reasons you are. Support my family and contribute to something. If you want to congratulate someone do it to your mailman for delivering your mail, your garbage man, your firefighters, paramedics, doctors, the barista that makes your favorite cup of coffee in the morning to get your day right. We all do our part to make other peoples lives better.

I do this because I'm good at my job, I get to see the world, and for the experiences I've witnessed. Has anyone else on here experiences a dust-storm in the Iraqi desert? Seeing one moment the sky blood red and then with-in seconds go pitch black outside? It's simply amazing!!! How about sipping coffee, smoking hookah and holding a conversation with a Iraqi national? Every PERSON is has their own amazing life story. Have you ever experienced comradely? how about being away from your loved ones for 7 months to witness and take in a completely different culture? I know it's a war-zone, but people are people no matter what. we're all human beings and we all have flaws.
With being here in Iraq, there is a lot of time to reflect on ones self. this is what I've written and what I believe.

We are all of one humanity,
all brothers and sisters of the same condition,
skirmishing over bits of earth and water,
many we one day, be fat and old teaching are grandchildren,
the evils of the old, may we one day come together as a whole,
and put are weapons and demons aside,
may we one day be the same.

Growing old together and sharing a meal,
talking about events past and present,
sharing a laugh, enjoying a smoke,
we are our brothers keeper,
may we someday be brothers at last,
not worrying about dust and ash,
for we are nothing but of what we come from,
dust and ash is what we shall become,
when there are no wars or famine,
that's the day we will be free,
united at last.

reply to post by Sek82


So killing innocent people is ok as long as the soldiers are doing their jobs? Is that what I hear you supporting?

Peace to You.

reply to post by jonbaker87


Yes, but it's still called enabling.

If a person commits a crime and you drive them to the scene of the crime, you are also responsible. Additionally, we have a law on the books called "material support" to terrorism, no?

You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

I'm not trying to dehumanize you or make you feel guilty. However, you can see the world without helping to blow it up and conquer it.

Originally posted by jonbaker87
I do this because I'm good at my job, I get to see the world, and for the experiences I've witnessed. Has anyone else on here experiences a dust-storm in the Iraqi desert? Seeing one moment the sky blood red and then with-in seconds go pitch black outside? It's simply amazing!!! How about sipping coffee, smoking hookah and holding a conversation with a Iraqi national?

Wow

Imagine if the Chinese invaded the United States and a Help Desk employed by the Chinese military and stationed in the United States in an immoral war says "Fine, i've immorally invaded the U.S. but listen I get to see beautiful waterfalls, watching an eagle soar through the Grand Canyon and drinking single malt with some locals"

What would you say about such a person?
I assume you would say alot, but right now you might not say much since you realize that this person is YOU.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


Unfortunately, she is as ignorant as the trigger-happy idiots that are part of the military. There is always more to the issue, and painting everything in black or white is just another word for fundamentalist

Originally posted by TheOrangeBrood

Originally posted by Becoming
I cant speak for the other military members, but I for one really don't care if civilians support the troops or not.

Its not a big deal for me either way. As a matter of fact it makes me very uncomfortable to have someone come up to me and say "thank you for your service".

I have always said that you can't be against the wars and support the troops at the same time.

So don't support us if you want, I don't mind.

Kay, I'll just invoice you for my refund, then.

Or do you not understand what "support" means?

edit on 5-7-2011 by TheOrangeBrood because: (no reason given)

Go ahead send me an invoice for your refund. I only hand out refunds face to face, so if you are wanting your refund then bring your attitude to Fort Gordons PX and we can hash out how much I owe you face to face. Make sure you bring your W2's, tax returns and how much you think you have paid to the DOD.

Let me know when you can make it and I will pencil you in.

reply to post by Becoming


e-Threats are lame and cowardly

Your opponent is absolutely correct, it is his support that is funding troops
To deny that is self-denial, especially if you are in the service

This is why FIAT currency is slavery, because in such a system he has little voice to speak his opposition, because there aren't many channels

reply to post by SFA437


I do understand that not all of them fight the US or (puppet) Iraqi government. Also I do understand that the Muslim sects are big part of that issue as well, however these Islamic sects (Shai (the minority group) and Sunni) have been waring with each other since their separation shortly after the death of Mohammad (632 C.E.) so around 1380 years, that's a long war, do we honestly think we can calm that issue at all?

Like I stated in an earlier post I don't agree with not supporting the troops simply because most just want to make it home not all of them are terrible men by any means just caught in a # situation even if it was their choice to join, it is not their choice to disobey an order without expecting consequences. It has to come a point for each soldier when it becomes to much though, I think anyone put in their position would likely act the same minus the few that are not scared to go to the brig and get a DH discharge or worse (real heroes imo)

Yeah. True. Not everyone who joines the military is expecting to become the next Captain America by picking up arms in a new great war against evil and tyranny. Most of us simply join because we need a job. I personally joined the Army because I had an able body. And I just wanted a full time job where I could advance physically and mentally. Now I'm an OEFXIII combat vet with college and health benefits. I think joining the military is a great job. It's hard. and it's dirty. SOMEONE HAS to do it. Americas millions of vets and active duty military soldiers are NOT the select handful dirty politician decision makers that put us in conflict. you might as well start "not supporting" your fellow neighbors who vote these guys into office to begin with. might as well just "not support" the millions of Americans who put the Bush admin. (who started these wars) in office not just for one, but for TWO terms!!! I guarantee you if it wasnt for all our active duty and reserves volunteers. I promise you all we'd have a draft or mandatory military time like lots of other countries do (Germany, a western cultured, successful Eurpoean country actually just formally ended their draft this week. So dont think this stuff cant and doesnt happen). dont take us for granted. If it wasnt for us, your precious little out of shape cheeseburger eating Johnny's and Janney's would be in a uniform right now.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


Now, research who the people are who have profitted handsomely from these wars.

Second line.

reply to post by 0zzymand0s




Short, sweet, to the point and very insightful.

Amen sista. I feel the same way. Support the troops stickers make me sick. I often get into tiffs with people about my stance on war and military as well.
Whatever happened to people supporting peace and love? Oh right, they labelled us hippies and told us to shut up.
I'm looking forward to watching her 4th of July video when I have a bit more time.