What muslims really think about Terrorism, Democracy and the West

Originally posted by sir_slide

Look I've really tried my best to stay out of this, but I have to point out that I read articles almost daily that detail serious human rights abuses at the hands of the US government.

Acts of mass-murder are in no way comparable to one person getting killed once in a blue moon by a taser.

Originally posted by Cythraul
What I mean by that is this: most young Muslim males who live near to me, in a one-on-one conversation, seem to be very amicable and respectful of my views and all differing views.

However, the same Muslim, when put amongst members of their own community – other Muslims, show a different demeanour and are less tolerant.

That seems to be the way of it. In a group, Muslims seem to be much less tolerant.

Why is this?

Who knows, but it appears to be the way it works.

Originally posted by confreak
10 years of lubricious propaganda against anyone would decrease their favorable ratings. This isn't surprising, if people didn't know, Osama was only guilty because his speech spread a more realistic viewpoint of world order which the West including other powers were against.

Siding with Osama, are you? If the world order of the West is so terrible, why do none of you move to Afghanistan or Pakistan?

reply to post by Skyfloating


Most Islamic terrorists come from Wahhabi Islam, who are bankrolled by the Saudis.

Where is Wahhabism strong?

Wahhabism is official in Saudi Arabia.

It is influential in Qatar, Kuwait, and the United Arab Emirates.

It has a substantial following in Yemen.

Hamas in Israel represents pure Wahhabism.

Forms of neo-Wahhabi or Wahhabized ideology have been powerful in Egypt (the Muslim Brotherhood) and in Pakistan — in both countries neo-Wahhabis lead attacks on other Muslims and other faiths.

Wahhabi infiltration continues in Chechnya.

Wahhabi extremism and terrorism continue to plague Nigeria, Uzbekistan, Indonesia, and the Philippines, although its real supporters in these countries are few in number.

Wahhabi infiltration is a serious problem in East Africa.

In the Western European immigrant Muslim communities, Wahhabism has a presence in France but has been weakened by the atrocities in Algeria.

Britain has a loud Wahhabi, neo-Wahhabi, and Wahhabi-wannabe element but little real support for it among local Muslims.

old.nationalreview.com...

Originally posted by ollncasino
Every time you fill your car up with petrol, you are helping to fund Wahhabi.

Hence energy independence should be a primary goal of freedom loving nations.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
This is about the 5th posts that simply pops in and says "stats prove nothing" or "stats are lies" or "stats dont mean anything"

Uhmmmm.......hello!?! "Pops in"?? I have been contributing to this thread with nothing but posts about these statistics not being a reliable tool.

without offering their own version of what they think is true.

What truth? Do you want me to claim the statistics are dubious and speculate on what 1.4 billion Muslims think?? Fine.....I think most Muslims would argue amongst each other about the results of this poll.

If this information doesnt prove anything, what does mean something to you?

This "information" doesn't proofanything because it's an opinion poll.

I leave you guys to discuss the facts further.....

Peace

reply to post by operation mindcrime

This "information" doesn't proofanything because it's an opinion poll.

Yes, it does. It does prove what opinion muslims in these countries hold.

Originally posted by operation mindcrime


Uhmmmm.......hello!?! "Pops in"?? I have been contributing to this thread with nothing but posts about these statistics not being a reliable tool.

That post wasnt addressing you was it? Thats your posts are actually appreciated. The post was directed at people who just pop-in saying "its all lies" without offering their own version of what is accurate.

Originally posted by Maslo
Yes, it does. It does prove what opinion muslims in these countries hold.

Listen, I am very much aware of the effectiveness of opinion polls and I do not doubt the science behind it.

Statistics are excellent evidence but you must examine them for relevance, validity and authority. Just taking them as they are is ignorant and we deny that sort of thing!!

Keep up the good work.

Peace

Originally posted by Blaine91555
Since you are attacking me for pointing out that the Jihadists are not actually real Muslims and you claim you read English just fine, I can only assume you are a propagandist for radical Islam?

Yet Muhammad (blessed be his name) engaged in violent Jihad on an epic scale.

www.historynet.com...

There is no question of whether he did or not. The Koran and the Hadiths are full of his violent Jihad exploits.

For instance,

24% of the Median Koran is about Jihad, while 21% of the Hadiths are. 67% of the Sira is about Jihad.

www.cspipublishing.com...
www.cspipublishing.com...

Not the cuddly, self improvement type of Jihad either. 97% of it is violent Jihad.

What did Muhammand actually do?

(1) Mohammed besieged a tribe of Jews in Medina, and then, after they had surrendered, beheaded the 800 male Jews of that tribe. The women and children were sold into slavery.

(2) Muhammad also authorised the murder of a number of poets (male & female) who had mocked him. One poet was a mother sleeping with her young children. The Muslim assassin had to move a child aside before thrusting his dagger into her chest. Another victim was a male poet who was, according to Muslim sources, over 100 years old. Mohammed then absolved the Islamic murderers of any wrong doing.

(3) Muhammad ordered people to be burnt in their houses for not coming to prayer.

(4) He was also an accomplished caravan raider and a man who had the propensity to execute prisoners who had been political opponents in the past. One such man had fallen foul of Muhammad when Muhammad was in his early days due to being a better story teller than Muhammad,. "Who will look after my young daughter?" cried the man, moments before he was executed. Muhammad then cursed him.

(5) The Koran is full of quotes of Muhammad ordering Muslims to wage holy war on non Muslims. The passages urging violent Jihad date from when he was stronger - his time in Medina and after he had attacked and taken Mecca.

In what sense are Jihadists not real Muslims?

reply to post by Skyfloating


With that example I was illustrating the hypocrisy in proclaiming nations of people to be evil because stonings have occurred for adultery, when in another nation an elderly lady can be tasered to death for 'yelling at a police officer'. Although very different, I think it's fair to bring up.

I was comparing acts mass murder abroad at the hands of the US to the terrorist acts directed at the US only. Sorry for any confusion.

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
Statistics are excellent evidence but you must examine them for relevance, validity and authority. Just taking them as they are is ignorant and we deny that sort of thing!!

Just a little example of why I am not taking these statistics at face value (than I'll be out of your hair):

Skyfloating's statistics come from the The Pew Global Attitudes Project. Their code of ethics can be read here.

Independence, impartiality, open-mindedness and professional integrity are indispensable to the mission and success of the Pew Research Center.

Very important for an organization that produces statistics that not only reflect but also forms opinions.

Let's look a little closer....



Hey......I know that name!! Right there....the chair principal. I know her!!! Is she independent, impartial, open-minded and integer?

Albright Group

The Albright Group is an international strategy consulting firm founded in 2001 by former United States Secretary of State in the Clinton administration Madeleine Albright and based in Washington, D.C.

Albright endorsed and supported Hillary Clinton in her 2008 campaign for U.S. President. Albright has been a close friend of Clinton and serves as her top informal advisor on foreign policy matters. She is currently[clarification needed] serving as a top advisor for U.S. President Barack Obama in a working group on national security.

How's that for independent, impartial, open-minded and integer??

I don't know to much about these matters but in my opinion......it's fishy.

Peace

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Approval of suicide bombing is higher than I expected it to be

Of course. You are persistently naive on this issue.

One more point of view.. MINE, and maybe the view of many from my country..

I AM an Arab from Kuwait, I Am a very proud Sunni Muslim, I don't believe much in democracy as a system, although I do have some respect for it.. I believe in the Islamic Caliphate system if established right (very difficult in these times) I don't believe in violence except in self defense, I don't agree with terrorism of any sortr, I view OBL as a terrorist and can't forgive him for killing 4500+ non-fighting innocent people, I Am not Americanized and haven't even visited America, but, I'm willing to fight and die for America out of gratitude for saving my country back in 1990 as well as from a human point of view.

That is one voice and I really hope it counts

Originally posted by semperfortis
In my opinion people are people all over the world.. Mostly just working, loving their families and trying to enjoy their lives..

The Extremists have certainly been able to polarize a segment of Western Society but I fear that segment is mostly made up of those that have never traveled and are unfamiliar and intolerant of other cultures..

The human war is with extremists, not any one ideology

At least in my opinion

Great Thread and the Stats are very revealing; in my opinion that is..

Semper

That is the post of the thread

I couldnt agree more

People are basically the same the world over in my experience, we all just wanna get on with our lives, to be able to work, grow, provide for ourselves and our familys and have enough money left at the end of the month for the the little luxurys and things that we all aspire to, whatever those may be.

I've been shown greater level's of kindness in muslim countrys than I've been shown at home, and often by people who literally dont have a pot to piss in.

People need to wake up and forget this nonsense about muslim terrorists, it's extremism thats the real foe.

Unfortunately, I think the only real cure for extremism is education and a more equal society, a society where people feel they can achieve the life they want if they work for it.

Sadly, I think the worlds moving in the opposite direction

reply to post by Blaine91555


I found your posts to be well articulated and informative. Unfortunately not everyone has the patience to correctly read a post and digest it.

Thanks.

Originally posted by operation mindcrime


How's that for independent, impartial, open-minded and integer??

Instead of your polemical attacks on the integrity of the stats (similar stats have also been presented by other Polling Organizations, including those not affiliated with the Dems), when are you going to provide your opinion of what the right figures are?

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by old_god

What a load of crap, I know which book you are referring to by Gilbert Hanz, nothing but racial and prejudicial rhetoric - no different to the books bashing Christianity and other religions.

In respect of Muhammad ordering people who hadn't come to prayer to be burnt to death:-

My source is the Holy Hadith of Sahih al-Bukhari (Arabic: صحيح البخاري‎), as it is commonly referred to, which is one of the six canonical hadith collections of Islam.

en.wikipedia.org...

Bukhari (11:626) -

"The Prophet said, 'No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr and the 'Isha' prayers and if they knew the reward for these prayers at their respective times, they would certainly present themselves (in the mosques) even if they had to crawl.'

The Prophet added, 'Certainly I decided to order the Mu'adh-dhin (call-maker) to pronounce Iqama and order a man to lead the prayer and then take a fire flame to burn all those who had not left their houses so far for the prayer along with their houses.'"

Muhammad orders his men to burn alive those who do not present themselves at the mosque for prayer.

shawuniversitymosque.org...
www.quranexplorer.com...
www.usc.edu...

There we have it. Muhammad ordering people burnt to death, in a Holy Hadith, for not coming to prayer.

edit on 29-6-2011 by ollncasino because: add links

Haha, note quite.

That quote you just pulled out, refers specifically to Hypocrites i.e. "Muslims who are hypocritical in their faith, saying but not doing..."

That was an example used in the early times because the so called believers were still practising their other pagan beliefs.

Tit for tat comparisons will get us no where though, you have already formed an opinion and now you are trying to find evidence to back up your claims with suspect quotes (which are harsh, I do not disagree with that, but when you put them into the context of the time they make sense).

And finally the Bukhari Hadiths are considered hard lined by many moderate (and the majority) of Muslims which is why they use their intellect and refer to other Hadiths that cover the same subject but usually with a different approach - the idea being that you can do your homework and get a better understanding rather than reading something literally and saying it is what it is.

I could easily refer to the mass torture done by the Church in the name of religion when people were horrifically tortured and murdered because someone believed them to be witches.

I respect your viewpoint but I am sorry to say that you are a little misguided and should try and ask actual Muslims (moderate, intelligent) who will give you a much better understand on the subject matter and tell you to avoid going down single tracked viewpoints such as yours.

Adios amigo.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Instead of your polemical attacks on the integrity of the stats (similar stats have also been presented by other Polling Organizations, including those not affiliated with the Dems)

That's the second time you have claimed similar stats are present without providing a link to said stats....

when are you going to provide your opinion of what the right figures are?

Why do you automatically conclude that if I find the statistics questionable that I should provide more accurate statistics? Can't I just find the statistics questionable for the reasons I have given previously without having to provide other statistics or opinions??

What's the value of my opinion if I know nothing about how the Muslim population in general feels?

My problem is with the statistics and the people gathering them!!!

I think we are mis-communicating.

Peace

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Everyday muslims certainly dont think like that. Its sad to see all of these threads overrun by Ideologies. It is these ideologies that keep people from discerning friend and foe. When it is no longer clear who is friend and foe, chaos ensues.

If you want to put your finger on who is your foe, look no further than the Wahhabi school of Islam.

Most terrorists come from that school. It wants the whole world to live its life as Muhammad (blessed be his name) did and appears to be happy to follow in Muhammad's footsteps and use violent Jihad to do so.

en.wikipedia.org...

The Saudis have spent over $87 billion spreading Wahhabism around the globe and apparently 80% of mosques in the West are paid for with Saudi Wahhabi money.

I have read that moderate Muslims in the West are aghast that Western governments allow the spread of such an extremist ideology. Many left to get away from such violent extremism.

Yet Wahhabism is allowed to spread under the guise of religious freedom.

Every time you fill your car up with petrol, you are helping to fund Wahhabi Islamic extremism.

Finally you talk some sense my friend.

Wahabism and pretty much any far right extremist takes on the religion are the ones to worry about and always the tyrants that get the most help from over leaders (why?!).

The problem stems from a corrupt government that pretends to be religious to pull in those votes. Then turns on it's people creating a political movement that is based on religion but fuelled by idiotic political ideologies. The result - some seriously disturbed people promoting (and being aided by local or foreign hands) their venomous thoughts.

These groups are then used and abused from both sides, on the one hand you have the west trying to tool them to put a halt to the desires of Arabs who in turn are trying to use these groups as a means to push through their own agenda (haven't we heard this before).

I agree, stub these groups out, stop supporting the tyrants and stop effing about with other peoples countries (with total disregard of their culture) and people might actually warm to us "westerners".