You people do know the Bible says we don't go to heaven, or the lake of fire when we die, right?

Originally posted by HolyandClean
reply to post by jerryznv

 

My KJV Bibles do not contain the Apocrypha. They also have the deuter. books in them.

Carry on...preach away...save the unsaved. Prove your point...justify your salvation...whatever your purpose is...carry on by all means!

Pardon the interruption!

reply to post by MaxNormal


Read carefully what i'm about to post.

Revelation 20:4-20

King James Version (KJV)

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Those who died for Christ, are going to be resurrected at Jesus's 2nd coming! THEN they will be alive. Those who remain on the earth as righteous saint will be caught in the clouds with Jesus and everyone else.

Those who make the 1st resurrection do not have to be judged at the great white throne judgment!

Everyone else will be resurrected after the 1000 years of peace with Jesus is over! Then they will all be judged according to their works!

reply to post by HolyandClean

Originally posted by HolyandClean
Nope, that's a translation error. According to original greek manuscript, Jesus meant it like this. "Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise."

IMO it doesn’t make much sense for Jesus, or anyone for that matter, to state that I am saying such and such to you today etc. I mean, why state that you are saying something today? (Rhetorical question) For me, it just doesn’t sound right. So I’m more inclined to go with the other translation.

Originally posted by HolyandClean
If he meant it the other way, then it would totally contradict what he told us in John 3:13.

Not necessarily….


John 3:13

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man

Jesus is talking about a time before salvation through Jesus had arrived, which is why no one at that time had seen heaven The verse has no bearing, as to whether you go direct to heaven, or have to sleep for a long period before you enter.


John 3:13 doesn’t necessarily rule your theory in or out, because no mention is made as to when righteous men and woman, will go into heaven; all it states, is that none had seen heaven, at that particular moment in time.



- JC

Originally posted by HolyandClean

Originally posted by MaxNormal
(John 5:24-25 KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. [25] Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

(Eph 2:1 KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

(Eph 2:5 KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

(Col 2:13 KJV) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

These four verses give us insight as to the nature of the first resurrection which is not a physical one but a spiritual one. The believer was once dead in their sins but because God had quickened (or made alive), the Christian is not subject unto the second death or eternal damnation. So the first resurrection is not physical, it is the moment when we receive our resurrected souls and now we are alive unto God whereas before we were dead to the things of God. When Revelation 20:5-6 is interpreted correctly as a spiritual resurrection, then it harmonizes with the rest of Scripture and we don’t have to twist any Scripture or fabricate a doctrine to make it fit.

Uh, did you read that first scripture? It says all who are dead, or in the grave, shall hear His voice! That means the must be asleep! Like all the other scriptures say.

What I don't get is what would happen if your body was completely vaporized somehow? Or what if someone gets eaten by a Shark? They don't have a grave.

reply to post by Forevever


Oh god... Not this guy again.

reply to post by HolyandClean


Excellent attempt OP,
I agree with your statements about the lake of fire and I admire your love of the book of Revelations. I hope you continue to post those same verses is every thread to reinforce that you have read and completely understand them.

I have some questions for you..
Do you disagree with funerals? What would you propose we do with all the corpses instead? What do you think happens to animals when they die? For example, do all dogs go to heaven?

Thank god for that... Why would I want to go to heaven? With all there is yet to explore... The entire universe...

Originally posted by SaberTruth
I'm immediately skeptical of anyone offering to "wake me up", because they arrogantly presume I'm asleep. Just sayin'.

Originally posted by HolyandClean
Remember when Jesus died and resurrected, His whole body went with him?

Yes, but it was transformed into an immortal body. Paul explained in 1 Cor. 15 that just as the seed one sows is nothing like the plant that grows out of it, so also the body that dies and decays is nothing like the body it will be transformed into. Only the immortal can enter heaven, which is why the bodies of the righteous dead remain in the ground but their spirits go immediately to heaven. When the dead rise, it will be their old bodies being transformed. So unless you've seen a Christian's body disappear the moment they die, I'd say we still better bury them.

No man has ever went to heaven, except the one that came down from heaven, Jesus Christ! So what happens to the dead, when they die?

This was before the cross, when the dead all went to Sheol, a place divided into two parts for the righteous and the unrighteous, per Jesus' account of the rich man and Lazarus. The good side was Paradise, which Jesus promised to the man on the cross. Afterwards, Jesus took the righteous dead with him to heaven, such that Paul could later say that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

This also renders the OT references moot, since things changed after Jesus arose.

Basically, anyone who has ever died is in a deep sleep right now.

"Soul sleep" is not a new teaching at all, but I still don't see it supported by the NT.

IS it possible that we are dead right now and we don`t even realise it?? death is an illusion anyway.
There is no death only sleep basically, sleep is just an lower or undifined form of awareness that is ready to be born/transformed to a more sophisticated kind of awreness.
Think as it like a baby in the whomb of a mother. The conscious energy starts at the inception of the baby, inhabiting the billions of cells that all have there different functions in making the baby what it should look like and function, preparing it for birth into a new world.When it is born it is consiously unware if its surrounding but this gets changes as the he/she matures and eventually have children themselves.
What you have to understand is that the same consious energy that made you who you are, is changing constantly as well, both spiritually en physically, its like 2 sides of the same coin.
All states of consciousness that have for gone a certain evolutionary cycle you can call sleeping, as it has not matured yet.our conscoiusness can only see what is in the past, the process, and say we were ''sleeping''
We know alot more know about our world and ourselves then when we were little, so form that stanpoint we were sleeping. But the same can be said about us now in relation to our future selves. But as we can`t see in the future we think that we ''live''
So it is the evolution of awereness that is key here and sleep and alive is realtive to its ranking on the evoltionary ladder so to speak. This is also key in figuring out what time is.As the energy of consciousness evoluates the perception of time for that awareness also changes untill there is no time and the awareness perceives life as eternally, which it is.

2012 has been called the awakening because our consciousness is being raised dramatically, and relative to our own personal development we will see ourselves and the world in a whole different light, as our perception of time will be completely different than now.

reply to post by HolyandClean


The Bible was written a LONG time ago brother and cannot or let me say, should not (imo) be taken literal, for it was mostly written in parables. With that said, "asleep in Jesus" may just mean they have closed their eyes to him and are not within his teachings.
I can read it and clearly see where reincarnation comes into play in several of the passages, while others are asleep in its regards.

Originally posted by Senser
IS it possible that we are dead right now and we don`t even realise it?? death is an illusion anyway.
There is no death only sleep basically, sleep is just an lower or undifined form of awareness that is ready to be born/transformed to a more sophisticated kind of awreness.

Possible? I suppose so. But the Bible seems to define death as "separation": either the spirit from the body (physical death), or the spirit from God (spiritual death). It also uses death to indicate a change of relationship or citizenship, e.g. "dead to sin". At physical death the body decays because it is mortal, while the spirit or "consciousness" if you will lives on eternally.

What you have to understand is that the same consious energy that made you who you are, is changing constantly as well, both spiritually en physically, its like 2 sides of the same coin.

I was "fearfully and wonderfully made" by God, if that's what you mean by "consious energy". And scripture does say that we can "be transformed by the renewing of your mind".

reply to post by HolyandClean


This is the same snippet of the bible Jehovahs Witness use in their indoctrination. What people dont realize is that Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon. Solomon supposedly the wisest man on earth felt that all this knowledge and wisdom he recieved was in vain. He was sort in a depressed whiney mood, is an easy way to express that. That message was not divinly inspired, but more like a "woe is me" rant.Solomon, was writing from a human, temporal perspective - in a very melancholy mood at that; nevertheless, he corroborated the statements of Genesis that death is the cessation of conscious life. The Psalmist wrote that the dead do not praise God, that they "go down to silence" (Psalm 115:17; compare with Psalm 6:5; 1 46:4).
The idea that death is merely a separation of a conscious, immortal soul from the body did not come from the Bible but from Greek philosophy.
Plato wrote in Phaedo:

"The soul whose inseparable attitude is life will never admit of life's opposite, death. Thus the soul is shown to be immortal, and since immortal, indestructible... we believe there is such a thing as death? To be sure. And is this anything but the separation of the soul and body?...being dead is the attainment of this separation when the soul exists in herself and separate from the body, and the body is parted from the soul. That is death... death is merely the separation of the soul and body".


If we take it literally, the dead are unconscious and will never find a reward or be remembered. The Watchtower teaches that the first half of this verse is literal, but that the second half "is not the case." You gotta look at the context of this passage. If we back up to verse 3, same chapter, is says
"This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all..." (KJV)

If we keep it in context, we find that Solomon is talking about events that happen while we are alive, here on earth, "under the sun"!



Christ however tells us, that our souls are eternal living, Jesus said' "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

The Greek concept of the immortal soul assumes that individuals already possess eternal life - that the only question is where this eternal life is spent after death. In stark contrast, many Bible passages portray immortality strictly as a gift to be given by God. Paul refers directly to the fact that God alone has immortality (1Timothy 6:16). In a well-known statement to the Romans, Paul insists that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. In other words, the normal consequences of sin is death; but immortality, the opposite of death, is something that man does not have of and by himself; it comes only as a gift from God (Romans 6:23).

John echoes Paul's statement.

"And this is the testimony. God has given us eternal life, and this Life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life" (1John 5:11-12; compare with 1John 3:14-15).
Jesus, referring to Himself, prayed to the Father just before He was crucified,

"For you granted him (Jesus) authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent" (John 17:2-3).
If man is inherently immortal and his life continues eternally beyond the death of the body, these passages don't make sense - unless, of course, one redefines death as separation of soul and body, a definition not supported in the Bible. If, however, death is the absence of life and consciousness, these statements make very good sense.

I just have to point out the influx of rather new posters, this is not to imply that you are new to the site but just new to posting HERE. I find it interesting that a person who comes here to share an idea, thought, whatever you want to call it, is attacked and treated like they know nothing. I have seen the OP called dumb, stupid, ignorant and a few other things but isn't it the point/ objective of this website to post our ideas and thoughts about the known and unknown and to discuss as a group? We shouldn't point fingers of judgement toward one another but rather keep an open mind. This does not mean that you have to take what anyone says and believe it as fact. Just because what they are posting does not give anyone a right to call names and be rude. Maybe if we all started to treat one another with more respect as a group then we would start to get it back.

I smell a jehovahs witness BS, I'm guessing by the way he trys to convert with the scriptures he used, that the OP is a JW or a xJW. Just ignore him and he will go away.

reply to post by AdamAnt


You mention that "Paul refers directly to the fact that God alone has immortality (1Timothy 6:16)" but nowhere in that context does it speak of the specific case of the righteous dead when they receive their new, immortal bodies. Paul's discussion there is of this physical life; see vs. 7-8. And if the statement about only God being immortal means what you say, then vs. 12 makes no sense at all.

You say, "the normal consequences of sin is death; but immortality, the opposite of death, is something that man does not have of and by himself; it comes only as a gift from God (Romans 6:23)", but you presume that death means something other than normal physical death or eternal separation. To say that the idea of eternal separation is foreign to the Bible is circular reasoning; you cannot start with that presumption.

You didn't mention passages that speak of eternal conscious suffering for the unrighteous, such as Mt. 25:41, 46, Rev. 20:7-14. After all, what's the point of raising up the unrighteous dead for judgment if they're already dead and gone forever? Why wake them up just to put them back to sleep? The only way out of this is to allegorize it, as many do for only those passages that would refute their position if taken literally.

Originally posted by Joecroft

Interesting theory…

but…

Luke 23:42-43

Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom”
Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

- JC

The original Greek did not have commas. These renderings are equally correct:

"Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

"Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Later, on Sunday morning, Jesus told Mary not to touch Him, for he had not yet ascended to His Father. I gather from that that Jesus had not yet been to paradise, so I choose version #2. "I tell thee today" was also a common idiom in that time and place.

Do you see how the Biblical text reinforces itself?

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
The original Greek did not have commas. These renderings are equally correct:

"Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

"Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise."

There are more factors to consider than just commas; see this article. In no other instance does Jesus say "today" with "verily I say to you", so you need something in the immediate context to support the exception here, and there is nothing there. "Today" is a simple adverb, no disagreement there, but you have to consider the whole figure of speech "Verily I say to you" and justify tacking on "today" to it.

Later, on Sunday morning, Jesus told Mary not to touch Him, for he had not yet ascended to His Father. I gather from that that Jesus had not yet been to paradise, so I choose version #2. "I tell thee today" was also a common idiom in that time and place.

This cannot be presumed; Paradise was part of Sheol before the cross but "taken captive" when Jesus ascended to heaven. So the thief on the cross was indeed in Paradise that day with Jesus, but Mary saw him before he had taken Paradise to heaven. So I see no connection between this passage and what Jesus said on the cross.

Originally posted by SaberTruth

There are more factors to consider than just commas; see this article.

"This article" dismisses my interpretation with a suspicious glibness. Today in Paradise? Do we even know for sure where/what Paradise is? No, it's all a matter of theology, which as I like to say, absorbs twenty-seven times its weight in excess reality. Jesus in Hades/Hell/Paradise/Sheol during the three days and nights of His death? I prefer to believe that He was simply dead, non-existent.

To be "absent from the body" is to be "present with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8). This is the clearest of truths in the mind of Paul, and one of the most comforting assurances for the child of God. Death for the Christian is not so much an exit out of life as it is an entry into the Lord's presence in a very personal sense.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
"This article" dismisses my interpretation with a suspicious glibness. Today in Paradise? Do we even know for sure where/what Paradise is? No, it's all a matter of theology, which as I like to say, absorbs twenty-seven times its weight in excess reality. Jesus in Hades/Hell/Paradise/Sheol during the three days and nights of His death? I prefer to believe that He was simply dead, non-existent.

"This article" does no such thing but thoroughly documents both the claims of the JW interpretation and the counter-evidence. To refute it you need to do more than declare it so; you need to dispute specific points, and I'd be most interested in seeing you contact the author directly to do so. I learn best by watching people debate, and so far I haven't seen good arguments to refute the ones in that article, especially to the same degree.

What any of us would prefer to believe is fine as a personal conviction, and everybody's free to express them. But the text of scripture does not tip the scales in favor of your view on this topic so I remain unpersuaded.

reply to post by HolyandClean

OK - it's over.
2nd line