Genocide, Jews, Demonic Possession and the Amalek

Skyfloating, I usually like reading your stuff, and this one contains your trademark mystical creativity. Moreover, you've placed this in skunkworks, which indicates you are aware of its speculative nature. But even so, I am afraid I cannot go along with this one for several reasons.

First of all, I disagree staunchly with assigning metaphysical meanings to racial or ethnic groups, be they positive or negative. God neither punishes nor elevates one group over another; the trials and tribulations of the Israelites are no more or less significant than the sufferings of any other groups. That way lies great danger. Both extreme denegration and extreme elevation of any group of humans leads to conflict with other humans, all of whom are, I am quite convinced, equally metaphysically significant.

I also have a lot of trouble with your mapping the Zionist story onto Chinese history. It seems a cheapening of Chinese and Asian history and religion to me to subordinate it to the hemaneutic demands of a theory rooted in the Abrahamic religions.

But this is skunk works, so don't mind my skepticism, carry on. I'll go make some popcorn.

reply to post by dontreally

Palestinians in Gaza are taught MUCH WORSE. Go to MEMRI.org or PMW.org and see for yourself what appears in their newspapers, what theyre taught on their TV shows... The Palestinians are being indoctrinated into having a psychopathic hatred of Jews, based on their own religion...they are being taught to look at Jews as the "killers of prophets", and Ape and Pigs (although the latter the Quran attributes to Christians)... It is frightening.

I believe you. I don't think that it is right. It isn't like the US has more control over Israel but more like Israel is a large part of the US and we enjoy a symbiotic relationship. A close pairing.
If Israel is doing what we despise the Palestinians for doing - then we are hypocrites.
End of story. The barbaric madness of the Palestine's is what justifies our actions favoring Israel and being passively aggressive against them. If it is happening on both sides where is our moral authority? For all appearances, we are scoundrels too. We would leave ourselves open to ridicule and worse, attack from anyone who feels they have right on their side and the wind at their back.

reply to post by newcovenant


You seem like an intelligent guy.

Why in your opinion would another group attack the Jews. For what reason. This should be the ultimate compass in figuring out if there is any truth to this Amalek idea. If there exists a veritable enemy - an ideology - that conflicts with that of Judaism, then it is reasonable to surmise that its the IDEOLOGY - and not some ridiculous notion of a national 'self fulfilled prophecy" that is the reasoning behind their millenia long persecutions.

Now, i have a very interesting book that explores ancient literature - of the Roman and Greek historians, poets - in trying to figure out when 'antisemitism' began. The author ends up concluding that it was not anti-semitism, but anti-Judaism. What the ancients disliked about the Jews was their religious beliefs - their higher morality and strict standards - and this was the reason for the disconnect between them and the nations on a social level - to live apart - and also in their relations with foreigners.

The masses like todays masses followed the tune of their leaders. Whatever reason they gave them, they followed. Masses tend to be that way. Theyre not deep. But the leaders.. Look no further then the Alexandria massacre of 100 BCE which saw the Greek and Egyptian populations attack the Jews killing thousands of them. To delve deeper into this episode, we can read the works of Apion of Alexandria, who was head of the Alexandrian gymnasium.

Anyways. I ca write more about this later. Right now i got to go eat.

The reason for Amalek, is not simply as the OP said, a demon that takes over every generation or so, but more precisely, an ideology that conflicts so deeply with that of Judaism (and given the ancient feud between the Greco-Roman world and Judaism - there is deep reasons for this) that it seeks to dispossess it. It is threatened by Judaism and its system of morality. It sees its social agenda - which it has largely succeeded in (as Hitler said "conscience is a Jewish invention") as a threat to its own vision of how the world should work.

What else do you think Liberalism is? The word liberal is derived from the Latin - Liber - who of course was the Roman version of the Greek Dionysus. The "gods" represent archetypes. States of being, and experiences of reality. The Romans and Greeks Saw Dionysus as the god of gods. The 'curer' of melancholy, with his bliss bestowing wine. In other words, "Liber" or liberalism, was their ideal. and the personified and worshipped this ideal. This is what the bible means by idolatry.

One can never properly understand the significance of Amalek without a knowledge of metaphysics. Its as simple as that.

I don't have any solutions to the Mideast dilemma. I don't think an evil demon possesses every other generation, but I think others, more close to this conflict might actually believe that. In fact it might even SEEM like that to them.

It sees its social agenda - which it has largely succeeded in (as Hitler said "conscience is a Jewish invention") as a threat to its own vision of how the world should work.

Probably very true but I think it goes much deeper and has some long and tangled roots.
It has been enlightening to discover how far back these animosities really do go and explains why they are so difficult to dislodge. We have racism here in America. Some hate Mexicans, others hate Jews. I know a rare few clansmen who would rather spit as say hello to a black man.
Reasons? Well, what can there ever be?

Something hard and dug in, a bitterness from long ago? Something in the genes?

I don't know how to describe it but this hatred between the Jews and the Palestines is not your garden variety hatred and makes all those examples seem like minor disagreements. The French hate Americans but compared to this Israel - Palenstine thing, it is affection.

This Mideast dilemma is a religious hatred. A hatred in the name of God.
This is a divinely inspired war. A decree to kill.
A God given order to extinguish the very last of your enemies and their little dog too!
And try as we might and hope as we might, (silent thunder) rationalize that it must - it does not go away. They do not forget. Time does not heal this wound but makes it grow infected, deeper, worse. In the end it will be fatal and will kill its host, but they are oblivious.

What kind of philosophy or religion is it, if you disobey, and FAIL to hate and kill as many as you humanly can kill, you risk your own salvation. You risk the love of God for eternity. What kind of religion is that?



And how do you begin to patch up a feud like that?

Hypnotize them and tell them they love each other?

Originally posted by Tephra
What evidence do you have of a widespread genocidal agenda carried out by Nazi Germany? Hearsay doesn't count.

Thats saying that 99% of all Historians, Documentary-Makers, Eye-witnesses and also Germans who report what happened are either more stupid than you or are all part of the cover-up. The first proposition is arrogant, the second paranoid. Which do you choose?

Originally posted by silent thunder
First of all, I disagree staunchly with assigning metaphysical meanings to racial or ethnic groups, be they positive or negative. God neither punishes nor elevates one group over another;

Its not about what you or I believe or agree with. Its what the people on both sides, who are shaping History believe.

Originally posted by silent thunder


I also have a lot of trouble with your mapping the Zionist story onto Chinese history. It seems a cheapening of Chinese and Asian history and religion to me to subordinate it to the hemaneutic demands of a theory rooted in the Abrahamic religions.

China certainly has a great history and a special place the world, but not thanks to Mao.

reply to post by Skyfloating


The holocaust is big business, I'm not surprised to see people profiting from it.

Now where is this evidence. Apparently you're struggling here, I said Hearsay doesn't count.

Perhaps you should consider looking a little closer at the facts, instead of just going "Nooooo, everything the TV says is fact!"

Originally posted by Tephra
Perhaps you should consider looking a little closer at the facts, instead of just going "Nooooo, everything the TV says is fact!"

I knew several camp survivors personally. I say knew because they meanwhile died of age. In an alternate universe you'd enthusiastically agree with me that Holocaust-Deniers need to be put into straitjackets so that they are kept from typing on Internet Forums.

Originally posted by Lynda101
I felt that the Amalek was a type of 'potent energy' initially.

Yes, I understand this paragraph.

Zionists whom many Jews don't identify with because of usery.

You are using a different definition of "Zionist". A Zionist is a Jewish Settler in my definition, nothing more. Hence the Video of Zionists I posted earlier. I know it has another Definition for you guys. So what exactly do you mean when you say "Zionist"? I see the word thrown around all over the place to mean all kinds of things.

Originally posted by dontreally


So, those who think the Jews all of a sudden became secular after the holocaust really dont know a thing about Jewish history, or even the history of the Jews in Germany. The Jews of the Weimar republic were FULLY assimilated, German Jews - German, before Jews. They were nationalists who cared more about the fatherland then they did about being Jews. This was the basic train of thought of the Reform and Conservative movements in Germany.

Yes, I understand that German Jews were already widely secularized.. But it would seem that the Holocaust may have intensified that as far as American Jews are concerned. If I am wrong about this so be it.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Oh look you even got a cute little name for me, straight out of their playbook. Oh and you even called me a troll. Gotta love when people dodge questions.

Yeah, sure. Everyone knows someone who knew someone who lived right next to the gas chamber. Great evidence. If I'm a denier, what are you? A follower?

Since when does historical fact require a belief system?

Yeah we definitely should imprison and torture anyone who asks questions. That's a great idea....

oh yeah, we know who is the real demon who crucify Jesus long ago

reply to post by dontreally

You seem like an intelligent guy.

Your group should really trademark that, eh ? ;-)

Originally posted by TephraYeah we definitely should imprison and torture anyone who asks questions.

Asking questions is important. I wouldnt torture and imprison Holocaust-Deniers. But we do have to keep a watchful eye on them because they same people (politically) that caused these genocides are the ones now claiming they did not happen. These people have a really cruel streak and are prone to violence. So I am not saying "imprison and torture", but I am saying keep the straitjacket ready just in case. Better safe than sorry

reply to post by Skyfloating


The Nazi's were holocaust skeptics? Interesting. You are just sounding completely ignorant at this point. You lack any evidence, other than your own knowledge based off of popular propaganda transcribed on history books. Did you know that the Russians stated 6 millions Jews died at Auschwitz, only later did they revise that number, by about 5 million. That's a pretty big oops. There are more questions than answers.

You sound like the one discriminating, maybe we should get you a jacket too. I'm talking about evidence of a structured genocide, and you're the one talking about demonic possession. Who needs to be observed? I'll leave that one to common sense.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Lynda101
I felt that the Amalek was a type of 'potent energy' initially.

Yes, I understand this paragraph.

Zionists whom many Jews don't identify with because of usery.

You are using a different definition of "Zionist". A Zionist is a Jewish Settler in my definition, nothing more. Hence the Video of Zionists I posted earlier. I know it has another Definition for you guys. So what exactly do you mean when you say "Zionist"? I see the word thrown around all over the place to mean all kinds of things.

edit on 8-6-2011 by Skyfloating because: (no reason given)

I find your definition of Zionist far too simplistic. Your are using it as the term was understood in 1948, when the public and many politicians didn't know the extent of Zionist ambition and treachery. The term Zionist has evolved considerably for many people, you can read on the blogs a far wider and deadlier definition.

I see Zionism as an ideology to obtain absolute global domination concealed behind promoting the biblical God and his relationship with the Jewish peoples and their original homeland. They also want every reference to Christ removed and once in power anyone using that 'reference' will be beheaded. Zionists themselves are hard working, brilliant, manipulative, single focused people who crave power over others and will stop at absolutely nothing, to get it, regardless of whom they use or the ramifications of their actions. They won't hesitate to intimidate, use violence, kill or get someone else to do their dirty work for them.

They use Jews just as much as Gentiles to get what they want, there's no loyalty. In 1917 Zionists demanded Britain give them Palestine and in 1948 they sent as many Jewish Settlers as they could persuade to go to Israel. Part of their agenda is to separate the Jews from the Gentiles. They had actually told these Settlers that no-one lived there. The settlers were amazed to find a well organised country with a population of Muslim, Jew and Christian all living together peacefully and prosperously. Here you have an indication of Zionist behaviour. They lied to the first Settlers and they also did not tell them that the indigenous Jews, the Mizrahim opposed the Zionist plan. That is why to me you are wrong to label Settlers as Zionists, some may be but certainly not all.

If you are thinking that Jews and Zionists are exactly the same, they are not. Alan Hart defines this brilliantly when he says "Zionism is not Judaism, its brutal and cruel behaviour is driven by psychopaths who have no regard for International Law and Human Rights Conventions - which makes a mockery of the moral and ethical values of Judaism.

I think its hard for non-Jews to relate to the Zionist agenda. Ralph Schoenman on the Koening Memorandum clarifies the Zionist plans for terrorism against the Palestinians. "We must use terror, assasination, intimidation, land confiscation and the cutting of all social services to rid Galilee of its Arab populaton. This shows you how they started and what they are still doing:

Deir Yassen, soft target, Palestinian village, 254 people killed. 145 of them were women and children, 35 women were pregnant and many were raped before being killed.

A few years ago we saw settlers being dragged out from their new homes in Gaza. Didn't make sense initially until you realised that the social services such as water and electricity are all controlled by Israel and can go off and on at Israel's whim. It also concentrated large numbers of people into a confined space, ensurin high casualty numbers which meant that when Israel bombed Gaza the people were terrified and had nowhere to escape the phosphorus.

Zionists have secreted themselves in the banking world, world media, Hollywood and many other key areas. When you control the money, the oil reserve currency, set the gold rate you control governments, the laws they pass and their foreign policy, all geared to help Zionism at a high cost to everyone else. We all know who pulls the strings of the British Government and interestingly, although only 3% of the USA population are Jewish, they provide 50% of the campaign finance. This means that unknowingly the American public actually get a choice of two pro Zionist parties. Aptly seen when Obama wore a Kippah.

To give you an idea of how psychotic the ideology of Zionism is, Alan Hart interviewed Golda Meir on air, he asked her,
"You are saying if ever Israel was in danger of being defeated on the battlefield, it would be prepared to take the region and whole world down with it"?

Meir's prompt response was, "Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying." You could now get an idea of why Kennedy was shot shortly before he wanted to stop Israel having nuclear weapons.

The reference to Usery is I think an important one because God tells the people at least 6 times about this matter
Lev 25.36 Take no interest (Neshekh) from him or increase (tarbit) but fear your God, that your brother may live beside you.

reply to post by Lynda101


Which goes to show your ignorance of the matter.

Zionist immigrants to Palestine had been arriving since the 1900's - the modern Zionist movement having coalesced at eh end of hte 19th century with teh formation of the World Zionist Organisationthe pace accelerated in the 1920's after the Balfour declaration, and they bought land from the existing Arab population who were happy enough to sell until the political backlash to increasing numbers of Jewish settlers started.

But even after that - through the 1930's there weer still Arab sellers to Jewish purchasers for land.

Zionism is now and always has been, a movement to create a Jewish homeland in Palestine. The modern movment is a product of late 19th century manouvrings that were initially anti-russian, but ther have been zionist movemetns for centuries befoer then - dating back to the destruction of the 2nd temple by the Romans.

Redefining it to suit your own incorrect version of history, and then using that redefinition to justify your revisionism, is jsut bad circular reasoning!

reply to post by Skyfloating


I Didnt mean to imply that yuo were ignorant. Sorry if you got that impression. We all have a preconceptions - i myself have many. I just want a more accurate picture so id expect others to want that aswell.

American Jews also were very secularized. For instance, the Head of the American Reform movement in America at the time of the holocaust was Steven Wise - who himself said someting to the effect of "if its between saving Jews, or winning the war - we want to win the war. Country comes first"....

This man is buried in mauseleum - just to show you how much he flouts the traditional way of taking care of the deceased - to return them to the earth through burial, according to Judaism

The americans at the time were just as irreligious (ignorant, overall with the meanings and traditions of Judaism. This process began in the early 19th century. By 1940 it was already in full swing) as the German Jews in Europe. In the East - in Poland, Romania, Ukraine, Lithuania etc there were more religious Jews (being somewhat isolated from the major culture centers in Warsaw, Vienna, Budapest, etc) then in Germany and the major cities of Europe.

Did the holocaust change their attitude towards their Judaism? Probably. I wouldnt know. But i do know that this assimilation problem was already large enough in Europe for some Rabbis to consider the holocaust as divine retribution for their foresaking Torah and Judaism. .

reply to post by Lynda101


Do you honestly believe all that?

Do you read Hebrew?