Arizonas ban on ethnic studies

Originally posted by VicDiaz89

But this is exactly why our economy embraced a socialist value,so education could be paid for by all,no subject that students are willing to protest for should be too taboo for government spending to pay for...Why should students have to pay for a course that has just as much educational value as any other subject in todays curriculums.Its not like its a mandatory class,its an enrichment/elective type class,a class that most arizona students enjoy..

Your entire premise is incorrect and based on the fallacy that the system is socialist. It's not. It's a democratic republic. Perhaps American civics classes would be more important than Mexican culture.

In a democratic republic the population elects representatives. These representatives make decisions for the community. One of these decisions is how to manage the education system.

There is no constitutional right that guarantees the government will provide you any education, let alone specialized education. If the population doesn't like how the elected officials manage the government, they are free to vote for other representatives.

Now think about how irrational and illogical your alternative is.

How could a government ever function if it was required to pacify the wants of every minority? Should tax payers fund Slovakian classes because there are several thousand Slovakian students living in Arizona?

What this law does is eliminate racism. What you want promotes preferential racism. Clearly it's impractical to have special classes for every ethnic background. So why should Mexicans get special classes over Irish or Japanese?

What your're advocating for is preferential treatment. What the law says is no ethnicity gets special treatment.

Originally posted by MindF

Originally posted by Janky Red

Originally posted by MindF

This law does not take away liberty. In fact it's an expression of liberty. The people of Arizona had free elections. Their representatives who were elected passed this law. That's liberty.

I am sorry, but restricting the bounds of education to meet a political agenda is the opposite of liberty.
Fascist, totalitarian governments use political dictate to silence undesirable education, it sounds
like the old south talking, equating tyranny with liberty.

You are entirely wrong.

Arizona has elected officials. People are free to vote for these officials. If people don't like what they do they vote them out of office.

If people don't like what the majority in Arizona does they are free to move to another state.

Perhaps a better education on what "Facism" and "totalitarian" and "tyranny" really means would have served you. Just because you don't agree with the will of the majority doesn't mean your liberties have been violated.

the point of being pro liberty is to be mindful for everyones liberty, you do not enforce your political will upon others in an understanding that they will not do the same to you.

So I suppose you are for very large government, so large that it has the right to dictate education to the educators?

In Majority you are talking politicians, like several bus loads worth???

tyr·an·ny   
[tir-uh-nee] Show IPA
–noun, plural -nies.
1.
arbitrary or unrestrained exercise of power; despotic abuse of authority.

It is despotic to think that crooked politicians feel they have the right to dictate the bounds of curriculum to
educators in modern America...

Are describing a Republic???

Doesn't sound like it

reply to post by MindF


Do you pay police officers when you need them,do you pay firemen when they come to your home?Do you subscribe your kids to certain subjects in grade school and pay the teachers out of pocket.I doubt it,these luxuries all hail from socialism my friend,but thats a story for another thread,if irish and japanese have issues with the ethnic studies its well within their right to protest and demand change,BUT THEY DONT.It isnt an issue of blacks and whites angry because they dont have their own ethnic studies class,it isnt an issue of some sort of social or racial imbalance among students.Its lawmakers,for their own cynical reasons feel that our students must be deprived of their culture and the quality of their education..

Originally posted by Janky Red
the point of being pro liberty is to be mindful for everyones liberty, you do not enforce your political will upon others in an understanding that they will not do the same to you.

So I suppose you are for very large government, so large that it has the right to dictate education to the educators?

In Majority you are talking politicians, like several bus loads worth???

tyr·an·ny   
[tir-uh-nee] Show IPA
–noun, plural -nies.
1.
arbitrary or unrestrained exercise of power; despotic abuse of authority.

It is despotic to think that crooked politicians feel they have the right to dictate the bounds of curriculum to
educators in modern America...

Are describing a Republic???

Doesn't sound like it

edit on 10-5-2011 by Janky Red because: (no reason given)

You are sadly mistaken and your argument is based on false presumptions.

The point of liberty isn't being "mindful" of everybody's liberty. The American system is based on a premise that every individual has God given rights that the government cannot step over.

So let's begin with that premise. We all have the same God given rights.

So within this framework we have government institutions that provide services. We collectively elect other citizens to execute and manage these services, such as school systems.

The elected representatives in Arizona made passed a law that states no ethnic group gets special treatment. That is not a violation of anybody's rights.

And it's not tyrannical or despotic when a government makes decisions that are not what you want.

If there were no elections and the people had no way to vote these officials out, then yes, that would be tyrannical.

But no, just because the government doesn't provide you what you want doesn't mean your rights are being violated somehow.

You have the right to live somewhere else. That's what great about the United States. Each state can to a large degree self-govern.

And if Mexican-Americans, Polish-Americans, and Japanese-Americans don't like it, so what? It's not the role of the government to appease every minority.

reply to post by MindF


If it isnt the role of the US to accommodate for every race/culture than it shouldnt be so inviting,and shouldnt advertise freedom,places like chinatown,koreatown, little italy hell even epcot over in disneyworld all aid in making foreigners or descendants of feel like they are more welcome,the government advertises a place where you can be free AND still learn and express your culture and heritage so i find this law to be very hypocritical to what the US is "promoting".

You are talking about the "Mexican American/Raza Studies division" class that was started in 1998 which is the
same class they renamed “Mexican-American Studies” last year to sound less extremist?

From everything I have heard / read the only people arguing for the class is the kids and La Raza group based
teachers & activists.

Originally posted by VicDiaz89
reply to post by MindF

 

If it isnt the role of the US to accommodate for every race/culture than it shouldnt be so inviting,and shouldnt advertise freedom,places like chinatown,koreatown, little italy hell even epcot over in disneyworld all aid in making foreigners or descendants of feel like they are more welcome,the government advertises a place where you can be free AND still learn and express your culture and heritage so i find this law to be very hypocritical to what the US is "promoting".

Did you even read the law?

What specific paragraph of the law do you find hypocritical?

Yes, you can be free and learn and express your cultural heritage 24/7 if you want. This law does not change that.

It's just time to grow up and realize you're not *entitled* to have the other tax payers pay for everything you want.

Of course, protest all you want. If you can inspire the majority to believe in your cause, you'll get what you want eventually. If not, you'll have to tell your kids to go to one of the dozens of public libraries and read books, or use Google to learn about their heritage.

Seriously, is it really affecting your life that much if the government doesn't provide classes on this stuff for Mexicans or Japanese kids?

Diaz, many American citizens are up on the la raza reconquista thing, so playing dumb isn't going to work with some of this crowd. I've done plenty of research on my own about MEChA and I know what it's about. It's bad enough that the children of undocumented workers feel free to take advantage of free education, but you expect us to want to pour more oil on the fire by allowing communist infiltration at the very core of the public educational institution.

But just in case you or others here really did not know this was at the root of all these multicultural programs, I'll help you out a little.

The myth of Aztlan can best be explained by California's Santa Barbara School District's Chicano Studies textbook, "The Mexican American Heritage" by East Los Angeles high school teacher Carlos Jimenez. On page 84 there is a redrawn map of Mexico and the United States, showing Mexico with a full one-third more territory, all of it taken back from the United States. On page 107, it says "Latinos are now realizing that the power to control Aztlan may once again be in their hands."

Rhetoric by some Chicano educators strongly suggest Communist or Socialist leanings. In May, 2000, more than 1,200 students gathered at UCLA for the seventh annual Raza Youth Conference, which the members say promotes higher education and recognition of the Aztlan culture. Sponsored by MEChA, the year's theme was "Reclaiming Our Razas through education, resistance, and promoting the idea of remembering the historical struggles of Raza" said Erika Ramirez, co-chair of the conference. The conference drew students from 80 middle and high schools and community colleges; featured speeches by those actively involved with the Chicano community.
The keynote speaker was Antonia Darder, a professor of education and cultural studies at Claremont Graduate University and director of the Institute for Cultural Studies in Education, who received a standing ovation for her speech.
Darder described American capitalism and what she said were its impacts on racism and sexism. "I grew up in a capitalist society, a society that taught us that the greed of corporations control politics," Darder said. "Capitalism is the root of domination. Racism and sexism exist because capitalism requires it." Darder said a globalized economy forced smaller countries to give up their self-sufficiency, resulting in people migrating to the U.S. "We're here because U.S. foreign policy in Latin America has forced us here," she said.

The University of Oregon Chapter of MEChA hints at its communist sentiments by posting a picture of Cuba's communist dictator Fidel Castro. On its web site, "La Voz de Aztlan" has an excerpt from a speech of February 7, 1997, by Fidel Castro who said "the United States should return to Mexico huge chunks of that country's territories it acquired more than a century ago" La Voz de Aztlan, whom Antonio Villaraigosa refuses to repudiate, also disseminates antisemitic propaganda,

source: www.mayorno.com...


So, yes, these studies do tend to be communist and racist propaganda cultivated by very hard core communists who want nothing less than submission of the USA to communism. If they are not directly, they are tributaries which feed off the larger source.

And yes, there is a huge difference between the sampling of foreign foods and architecture at EPCOT and this communist propaganda.

"We cannot expect the Americans to jump from capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving Americans small doses of socialism, until they suddenly awake to find they have Communism."
Nikita Khrushchev

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
"We cannot expect the Americans to jump from capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving Americans small doses of socialism, until they suddenly awake to find they have Communism."
Nikita Khrushchev

Nice quote!

It used to be civil rights protests were about being free FROM government interference and discriminatory laws.

Now it's evolved that "civil rights" protests are about demanding what the government must do for you.

Passing laws that outlaw institutional discrimination and remove entitlements is not tyranny, contrary to what the OP would want us to believe.

What's next? Special classes for Lithuanian gay transgendered alcoholic midget mud wrestlers?

Jesus..... I can't believe we've devolved into even having discussions about this. No, it's not an outrage that public schools won't provide special cultural classes to teach Mexican kids about their Mexican roots.

What the hell is ethnic studies anyway? It sounds good to me. A class that teaches history, culture, contributions, origin and what ever of ALL ethnic groups would help people from each one develop pride and understanding of their own roots and all others'. That apparently is not what it is. Regardless the politicians that the people of Arizona voted into office have spoken. This is not tyranny or fascism nor is it prohibiting "Mexican Americans" from learning their culture and history. They can study it on their own. The fact is because the public education system is funded by the government through tax payers the government has the power to alter it in anyway they see fit. Therefor this particular issue is the result of more socialist ideals. Ideally though, in our democratic society they have to change it according to the majority of the citizens they represent. In my admittedly ignorant opinion this happened.

reply to post by VicDiaz89


thats why we need to stop the illegal mexicans from coming to our country. or maybe just fight in the war there druglords have declared on us maybe? if we wiped them out that would take care of the problem with them crossing the boarder and killing ranchers. but hey you would rather send them to school on taxpayers money and let them start there latino gangs in our own country. why dont you just fund them yourself that way maybe some of my tax money can be spent on something important, something american.

This is sort of anecdotal, but it illustrates what I find most objectionable about “ethnic studies” in modern academia.

“There are any number of courses that deal with some group aspect of America, but virtually none that deals with America as a whole. For example, there is African-American history from 1619 to 1865 and from 1865 to the present, but there is no comparable sequence on America. Every course is social or cultural history that looks at the world through the prism of race, class, and gender. Even a course on the environment (offered in the history department) “examines the links between ecology and race, class, and gender.” Do Bowdoin alumni know their alma mater offers not one history course in American political, military, diplomatic, constitutional, or intellectual history, and nothing at all on the American Founding or the Constitution; that the one Civil War course is essentially African-American history (it is offered also in Africana Studies); and that there are more courses on gay and lesbian subjects than on American history? Is it possible this is one reason why some conservatives are disinclined to send their children to Bowdoin? Mr. (Barry) Mills (president of Bowdoin) did not inquire."

--- Thomas D. Klingenstein,

Excerpt from “A Golf Story,” Claremont Review of Books,
Winter/Spring 2010-2011

The displacement of core humanities classes to cater to a narrow representation of minority perspectives is undermines all higher education.

Didnt realise there was so much tension between Americans and Mexicans

Originally posted by Sinny
Didnt realise there was so much tension between Americans and Mexicans

Well if they would stay on their side of the border, there wouldn't be

They choose to invade, hence tension pops up

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by CodyOutlaw

 

I totally agree with this. Then again a lot of the "history" that is taught in schools is romanticized rubbish to begin with. Education needs a great deal of reforming, if it is to be used to educate, not indoctrinate. That is a whole other can of worms I guess.

How about we get back to the basic reading/writing/arithmetic - and then maybe some science and history. When a lot more students come out of school able to actually read and think we can try some of these specialized classes.

This is weird.

reply to post by Chett


Absolutely, you need reading, writing and math to do even the most menial jobs out there. Those are the bare essentials to become someone who at least works for a living in some way, instead of becoming a sponge on welfare, or ending up in and out of jail.

Originally posted by VicDiaz89
Some of you may not know but in 2010 a bill was passed here in arizona that would ban"classes intended for a specific ethnic group" aka ethnic studies from all schools,with districts given the right to appeal.Tension in my city as well as others has been mounting between the minorities and the school districts..The schools seem to be fine with the ban and are denying the appeals that are bieng asked for by its students/teachers/communities.. I took 3 semesters of ethnic studies and found it to be very educational and satisfying to better understand my past and heritage.The class was called mexican-american studies but always welcomed students from different ethnic backgrounds.The states argument was that these classes teach students about mexican culture in a biased way as to "put down americans"so to speak,the state also says that these classes are only available for mexican-american students which is also a lie..Ill provide a few links here in my next post and i'd really appreciate your input on this matter

Sounds right on to me. My family fought at the Alamo and we remain extremely anti-Mexico and pro..as you say "American". A purge is coming in our lifetimes and anyone who doesn't like it can go vote for Obama.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


You people are ridiculous. My father came here illegally, he tried 4 times, and each time he got deported. The final time, he stayed. He worked hard in the fields to save enough money to get his papers. My mother was here LEGALLY pregnant, with me. Im positive he didn't sit around, get drunk and have you're family paying for his food, his rent. Mexican's come here to gain what they cant in Mexico. Before you start complaining about how we do absolutely nothing and your tax money is getting wasted on immigrants, remember what your ancestors did to the Native Americans. Your ancestors were illegal immigrants at one time.

People become bad people because of others around them, corruption takes over ever man in government in Mexico, Why is it so easy for you people to say "Well they should go back to their country and fix it" Yeah, if it so easy, why aren't you fixing your own government? A few bad apples in our race and you complain about how we're all sucking up your tax money like we're rodents. No. Im sick of you racist American's making it out to be like we are lazy non working people. I don't see you working in the fields, back breaking labor. In factories for 12 hour shifts for minimum wage. Walking up and down streets selling churros, hot cheetos and slushies for $1.25
We are hardworking people who want the best for our children. While you sit around and whine about how some mexican took your job, how about you get an education and GET A BETTER JOB, something illegals can't do. And even if we did you'd be complaining about it too. You just want something to complain about SHUT THE HECK UP ALREADY. You're like a nagging wife, nag, nag, nag, nag.


Anyway, how is it that no one see's the connection here? First they basically can pull over any dark skinned person and ask for papers. Now banning ethnic studies. Come on. American's cant be that stupid.