Nato strike 'kills Saif al-Arab Gaddafi', Libya says

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
reply to post by incrediblelousminds

 

No one made us, or COULD make us go to that party.

You have to remember this IS politics, there are some very shady people at work, who knows what they have over each other. And these are the type of people with egos so overinflated, they are willing to put the entire world at risk just to save their own asses.

Originally posted by RSF77

Nothing is funnier to me than reading westerners complain about the west taking action against other nationalities. It's like going to a sports event and seeing a guy rooting for the away team, because he thinks hes smarter than everyone else on his side of the stands.

Why are the people spending money we dont have on wars we dont need "the home team?"

And maybe some of us DO think we are smarter than many in the stands. Because maybe some of us can do math. And "spend more + cut revenue (taxes) while already heavily in debt and having just had your credit downgraded to a C = stupid. "

Originally posted by incrediblelousminds

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
reply to post by incrediblelousminds

 

I agree there are many other major players.

And where I got "France made me do it" is your statement that this was Nato and Frances baby. Its anyone who participates in making the babys baby, we cannot get all British here and blame France for our being there. (As they did with the US and Iraq.)

No one made us, or COULD make us go to that party.

My point was never anywhere near apologizing for America. Again, I was responding to a person who was saying this was an entirely US-led event, which it isnt'. Pointing out this is France's baby doesn't mean the US isn't involved, nor does it mean they forced us into it, and to imply otherwise is disingenuous. said nothing of the sort.

It's like you are actually trying to twist my words, repeatedly. Which is likely why you dont quote my words and wait until you can appear on a new page.

It was europe that instigated america to take action against serbia as well...or did we forget about that?

Milosevic was "a bad, bad, bad" person, right?? Trying to prevent yugoslavia from disintegrating into TINY NATIONS like the soviet union did and siding with the muslims bosnians in a christian dominated area.

Now destroying libya, destroying iraq, destroying afghanistan, probably syria......

Are people blind or just stupid? I don't think the UN has any business interferring in foreign civil wars and americans and europeans should realise that tomorrow if things go wrong, and likely they will, foreign troops will enforce martial law for "democracy".

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Because the "home team" is the culture and society our grand/fathers and mothers created (in my case anyways), it is up to us to fix it.

I'm not prepared to give up on my ancestors legacy and civilization because of conflict and death in another part of the world, in another society that someone else's people already screwed up. I could care less about them, I know typical ignorant American right?

To me, America means a lot more than the arrogant, untrustworthy faces of our politicians. It hurts me deep seeing it thrown away and the citizens of this country turning their backs instead of trying to right the wrongs. I confess though, I am insignificant in the grand scheme as well, I can't figure out what to do to help.

I believed I was smarter than everyone else once too, but it is what it is and we all have our ups and downs. You may be a pretty smart person, congratulations.

Originally posted by Itop1

Nato strike

www.bbc.co.uk

A Nato air strike in the Libyan capital, Tripoli, has killed the son of the Libyan leader, Colonel Gadaffi, a government spokesman has said.

(visit the link for the full news article)

edit on 30-4-2011 by Itop1 because: (no reason given)

Not to go all conspiratorial on you...but who is the source? Gaddafi?

Gadaffi needs and exit plan for him and his psychotic sons. Saddam Hussien's sons died in a firefight on the border of Iraq I think. It would not be outside the realm of possibility for Gadaffi to claim his sons were killed and hand then a large chunk of cash and tell them to go hide in another country.

Killing children is certainly wrong and shouldn't be done. And maybe NATO shouldn't be over there bombing the crap out of them, but I can tell you one thing for certain. If the shoe was on the other foot, Libya and it's allies would be bombing the crap out of one of our allied countries waging a non ending war in all kinds of countries we are allied with. And, unfortunately, that is exactly what is going to happen if the people pressing the "vote" button don't wise up and start making better choices for our leaders. That is the fact of the matter.

Do I agree with what we are doing? Nope, I sure don't, but it's just another fact of life, sometimes we have to do what we don't want to do. Like a lot of people get up and go to the same miserable, crappy job that pays peanuts just so they can support their families. War is just apart of human nature, always has been and always we will be. As I always say, someone will always be trying to take over the world and until people are educated enough to turn off the negative and start being positive in order to stop conflicts before they turn violent there will always be some legion of countries dropping bombs on other countries.

Then after they are done conquering the world they will start in on each other for control. Then after they annihilate each other the whole cycle will start again because there is no government to enforce the law. It all goes back to natural law at the point, which is simple.... Kill or be killed.

Just the way it is, and if you live in one of the allied countries be thankful that you do because it could very easily be much, much worse. Doesn't mean I agree with it, but its the truth and the truth is ugly.

The only reason they want him dead is because of the oil companies. Libya has oil... not as much as other places but Gaddafi nationalizes his oil... The sisters don't like that

Originally posted by mrjones7885
The only reason they want him dead is because of the oil companies. Libya has oil... not as much as other places but Gaddafi nationalizes his oil... The sisters don't like that

Gadaffi has extensive contracts with Western oil companies.

The facts dont fit your theory.

Originally posted by AtraxRobustus
reply to post by Canadianpride420

 

And you are a personal freind of Mr. Gadaffi are you? How cool is he.. Please elaborate.

Leftism at its very best...

LMFAO...yea I was having a beer with him just last night

Seriously you have to be the 10th person at least that whenever I post facts about Libya and ghaddafi I always see comments like, well go move there then and go help him out. You guys are pathetic, you have nothing to offer in terms of an intelligent conversation do you?

reply to post by RSF77


We dont disagree on our love for America. And I strongly resent the implication that we do.

We disagree in that we think "America and Americans" are the driver of what is happening over there, and here. I believe that our politicians are no longer serving the interests of our nation, or her people in any real way, and instead are allowing themselves to be used to promote an international agenda that serves some few multinational banks and corporations. Our entire democracy is being subverted by corporate influence, and our economy as well.

I can be patriotic and not want my nation acting in ways that are detrimental to my nation and to the benefit of some few who in some cases, are not even American at all.

Originally posted by LosLobos

Originally posted by wonderworld

I think WW3 is possible,

You know why that is truly possible? Because, as Americans, we get side tracked with nonsense. We take our eyes off the ball every time Trump or whoever spouts off hatred of our own Government. When we do that then it underminds our entire system. Then you get folks like Bradley Manning giving away our secrets. Or the mass media second guessing and defiling our President.

WWIII will be started by the American People. Not anything government has done but what the people forced the government to do. Even now the people are saying, "why go into Libya but not Syria"? Why why why. Pretty soon we will have to go into Syria because poll numbers will start to slip.

We can all sit and play Monday morning President until the cows come home. But none of us know what the real President knows.

Donald Trump for President is a joke. I'm not distracted by him. I do like his TV show though.

The US will not start WW3, I think Iran will bomb Israel, then Israel will bomb Damascus and other Muslim countries with Nukes, the US will be broke, and the EU, Russia and China will be the final players. Syria will be wiped out. Just my guess.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


True, so what do we do? Perhaps we should continue this conversation on another thread? ADVISOR has made quite a few threads on this subject.

Originally posted by incrediblelousminds

It's like you are actually trying to twist my words, repeatedly. Which is likely why you dont quote my words and wait until you can appear on a new page.

Im not trying to twist your words. At all. Calling something someone elses baby is a way of saying "its not my (our) baby."

I pointed out that it was in fact our baby too, because we are there. And specifically pointing the finger and NATO and France doesnt cut it, because we are there.

And I do not keep track of when the page is about to flip at all, and certainly not to nefariously cause your post and mine to end up on separate pages. Thats just a tad paranoid, dont you think? I dont even stay the whole time in this one thread, and at times I am in the writing mode, and I dont see the thread at all. How could I be timing it that way?

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
reply to post by RSF77

 

We dont disagree on our love for America. And I strongly resent the implication that we do.

We disagree in that we think "America and Americans" are the driver of what is happening over there, and here. I believe that our politicians are no longer serving the interests of our nation, or her people in any real way, and instead are allowing themselves to be used to promote an international agenda that serves some few multinational banks and corporations. Our entire democracy is being subverted by corporate influence, and our economy as well.

I can be patriotic and not want my nation acting in ways that are detrimental to my nation and to the benefit of some few who in some cases, are not even American at all.

I agree with that 100%. America is one of the best Countries in the world, heavily involved in humanitian needs throughout the globe. It's some of the policies we dont like. I also agree Our entire democracy is being subverted by corporate influence.

most of these wars in which we participate have been invitations or a plee for help. Iraq was a bit different. The Saudi's begged us for that one. They didnt want their oil taken my Hussein. We went in deceptive claiming nukes, nukes! Very lame to do. The truth is easier to accept.

Originally posted by Canadianpride420
How about the rebels waging genocide on black africans in Libya? What is their fate huh?

I have mentioned this before, but I see the information I have posted on this topic has got lost in a sea of back-slapping by the pro-Gaddafi crowd.

Gaddafi formed, in the 1970's when he invaded Chad and Sudan, something called the Islamic legion. To cut a long story short, the people that were in this Legion went on to form the Janjaweed militia in Darfur, leading directly to the genocide there of Black Christian Africans.

I think Gaddafi has far, far more blood on his hands than the whole rebellion combined. You can understand why they might string up a captured mercenary and kill him who has, up until that point, been part of the machine that has been killing people indiscriminately since February for having the temerity to protest for basic Human rights.

Doesn't make it right, but I can see why they did it. I probably would too if I captured a foreign soldier in my town who had, up until that point, been shooting at my wife and kids.

Originally posted by SyphonX
Yea, needless murder is so worth it. Nevermind the fact that western countries kept Mr. Gaddafi propped up for decades, but now I guess that all changes and NATO/France is willing to be indiscriminate when it comes to bombing locations with women and children.

That's total bollocks. NATO/Western countries kept Gaddafi propped up for decades?

No they bloody well DID NOT! Jeebus...

Goes to show the level of education on this topic and how selective some people are with what they "know".

reply to post by malcr


Please keep your hasty conclusions to yourself; the topic of this thread is not about me, nor how I judge my sources of information, or why I choose to post what I do!

We're all on the same side here on ATS! I normally try to avoid preloading my personal opinions on subjects which I have no trustworthy intel on!

But then....:
-I neither support NATO, USA, Gadaffi, or the Libyan rebels...
-I support: the immigrant workers from Chad; (executed by "the rebels"), and the Libyan women, children, and old in the Benghazi refugee camps.

....back to the topic:

Al-Arabiya source says Gaddafi son was indeed killed, but grandchildren were not.

Alarabia Link

Right now; who knows if Gadaffi's troops are not loading chemicals on helicopters in Abu Ruwaiyah...

Originally posted by RSF77
reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

 

True, so what do we do?

We were talking about it here, but then you seemed to imply criticizing our actions over there were somehow America bashing.

Originally posted by RSF77
Nothing is funnier to me than reading westerners complain about the west taking action against other nationalities. It's like going to a sports event and seeing a guy rooting for the away team, because he thinks hes smarter than everyone else on his side of the stands.

Originally posted by RSF77
Because the "home team" is the culture and society our grand/fathers and mothers created (in my case anyways), it is up to us to fix it.

I'm not prepared to give up on my ancestors legacy and civilization because of conflict and death in another part of the world, in another society that someone else's people already screwed up. I could care less about them, I know typical ignorant American right?

I dont think I AM criticizing the "home team" when I am criticizing the drivers behind this war, and speaking out against it. Those people are ruining my home team as well as Libyas.

Multinational bankers and corporatists are buying (or bombing into place,) political control of nations all over the world, including my own, which I love dearly and would do anything to protect. Including facing ridicule on ATS for having the gall to point out that what is going on over there is NOT in America, the nation, or American (the people) best interests.

I have never and WILL never give up on America, we just seem to disagree in that fighting for America means you have to shut up and support whatever the foreign interests who are taking over my country have us do.

reply to post by stumason


I just have a heard time believing that these are citizens rising up. I believe Egypt and Tunisia were real but I don't buy the Libyan conflct. Even if he was a mercenary I could see the anger of killing him if this was a democratic movement. But beheading the guy and using his head as a trophy, waving it around to a cheering crowd just speaks terrorists to me. You seem to have a good knowledge of events in Libya so i'm sure you know that eastern Libya is an al qeada breeding ground, particularily Benghazi(which is the rebel stronghold). Around 25% of foreign fighters in Iraq come from there, more than any other foreign country. I'm not claiming Ghaddafi is a saint but I think that he is most likely a better leader than anyone the rebels would install. If the rebels win, mark my words Libya will become another Somalia and the people will have a much poorer standard of living than they had under ghaddafi. I mean they have free education,(even overseas the government will pay, no tuition fees)universal healthcare and if a Libyan is injured overseas requiring surgery the government will pay for it, subsidized housing, interest free housing loans, if a Libyan is trying to start their own business they are given a one time payment of $20,000 to help them which doesn't have to be paid back. Ghaddafi stated after completing the great manmade river project that american threats towards Libya would double after it's completion which was in September 2010 I believe. I am aware of the public executions and don't agree with them but do we know what they were charged with..were they terrorists maybe? I also find it strange the rebels had nato weapons from day one even though they claimed they were poorly equipped and had no weapons. Also note the Libyan army does not carry the weapons they have due to sanctions so how did they get them?

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


I am not a Gadhafi supporter, just trying to be a realist. At least with Gadhafi in control you know what you got. If the Rebels want freedom, they need to earn it on their own. We have seen they know how to steal helicopters and arms. France started this and they should end it. France continues to favor wanting dominion over Northern Africa. When Gaddafi falls we will see the French benefits! I’m not putting all the blame on France they are just one of 28 Nations to benefit. I’d like to know the NATO votes on the Ney side.