Hawaiian Senator said Obama not releasing long-form BC to hide identity or citizenship of his father

Originally posted by dereks

Originally posted by derst1988
What was released was a Certificate of Live Birth. Not the real Birth Certificate

Not that birther lie again, Obama showed the only birth certificate Hawaii currently issues. It IS a birth certificate

Yea, and fairies wear black, and Elvis is still alive.

Originally posted by balon0
This whole birthplace issue is ridiculous. Shouldn't this be something debated on and brought to attention
B E F O R E he ran for president?????

It was.

The Obama-ites managed to ignore it by dismissing anyone who asked about Obama's birth certificate as a racist "Birther."

Originally posted by userid1

Originally posted by Byteman
reply to post by syrinx high priest

 

And again, since you glossed over it.

He gave it up when he became Indonesian, IF he had it in the first place.

It would seem you've glossed over doing any research.

In order to give up your US Citizenship - you MUST write the State Dept and request revocation. Do you have any proof this was done? IF he had Indonesian citizenship, that did NOT automatically revoke or invalidate his US citizenship (feel free to check the State Dept web site for details).

Additionally, please show us where in the Constitution is says that anyone holding dual citizenship (US obviously being one of them) is ineligible to be President.

For that matter, show me where the SCOTUS has specifically decided what "natural born" really means since it certainly was NEVER defined in the Constitution.

Here is an interesting discussion of this. naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com...

Arizona Senate Bill 1308 passed out of committee yesterday by an 8-5 vote. This bill is a cleverly disguised attempt to protect President Obama from eligibility scrutiny. It does this by declaring persons born with dual citizenship as natural born citizens. But it does this in a very sneaky manner. That’s right. Arizona has now passed out of committee a bill which states that persons born with dual citizenship are natural born citizens of the United States. This same bill is being considered by all states party to the compact. So infamous congratulations to the 8 votes in Arizona who passed this unconstitutional bill to the full Senate floor. They’ve just declared those born as dual citizens eligible to be Commander In Chief of the US Armed Forces.

Anchor babies will not be eligible for US citizenship according to this bill, but Obama will be eligible to be POTUS. Looks like a deal was struck to protect Obama by attacking the citizenship of children born on US soil to illegal immigrant parents

________________

Not to derail the thread, but does anyone know what the symbol
is that Obama is wearing (on the chain) ?




______________

reply to post by dereks

The short form birth certificate that Obama produced is available with no more than a 'CLAIM' of birth. No doctor or hospital verification required.
In Hawaii, the state that issues it, it is not considered valid I.D. and is not accepted when applying for a driver's license or even when trying to join the Boy Scouts.
Hawaii recognizes that the short form proves nothing and does not even it to be sufficient proof to become a boy scout yet Obama lovers believe it is good enough for the position of President of the United States???!!!
You do not see a problem here? Are you that obsessed with the man? There is little difference between the short form and a 'CLAIM' by a neighbor to remember someone's birth. Neither should be considered valid proof.
The long form which requires doctor or hospital verification is a legitimate birth certificate. Obama has not produced his. Why do you people keep insisting he has?
And, of course, why won't he?

Originally posted by truther357

First..If there is another Barry Hussein Soetoro Obama bc..and it is (1961) real? It would state that Obama was born in Kenya and his father's nationally would be stated as Negro and not African like the forgers at Fact Check and Politi Fact put on their 'illegal document' photo copy Obama birth certificate...Sure fooled the idiot's at the Federal Justice Dept.

I can't stand Obama, but you should know that no one's "nationality" would be listed as "Negro."

Negro is a race, not a nationality.

Nationality should have been filled in as "Kenyan" -- not the generic "African" -- Africa is a huge continent with many nations.

AuranVector

Originally posted by ToneDeaf
________________

Not to derail the thread, but does anyone know what the symbol
is that Obama is wearing (on the chain) ?




______________

The image on the medallion looks like a man -- a stylized man in the form of "Primitive Art" -- possibly African or Australian Aborigine or Polynesian.

Originally posted by AuranVector

Originally posted by truther357

First..If there is another Barry Hussein Soetoro Obama bc..and it is (1961) real? It would state that Obama was born in Kenya and his father's nationally would be stated as Negro and not African like the forgers at Fact Check and Politi Fact put on their 'illegal document' photo copy Obama birth certificate...Sure fooled the idiot's at the Federal Justice Dept.

I can't stand Obama, but you should know that no one's "nationality" would be listed as "Negro."

Negro is a race, not a nationality.

Nationality should have been filled in as "Kenyan" -- not the generic "African" -- Africa is a huge continent with many nations.

AuranVector

LOL @ negro as a nationality. Bought some much needed humor to this thread...................... Now show show the long form so we can get on with real arguments

Originally posted by Puck 22
reply to post by dereks

 

In Hawaii, the state that issues it, it is not considered valid I.D. and is not accepted when applying for a driver's license or even when trying to join the Boy Scouts.

Really? I don't see that restriction mentioned here:
"APPLICATION
Social security number and proof of name and age are required. Documents such as valid
driver's license, birth certificate, military I.D., along with other supporting documents are
necessary. U.S. citizenship or Hawaii residency is not required prior to obtaining a Hawaii
driver's license." hawaii.gov...

Additionally, why does the document specifically state " This copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding", but wouldn't be valid for a DL?

It would not matter if his father was born in Australia or elsewhere as long as Obama was born in The USA he is eleigible as the qualification ruling applies to the minor and not the parents.

His dad could've been wanted in 12 nations and as long as his child is American born and bred that is the only thing that matters.

Originally posted by AuranVector

Originally posted by truther357

First..If there is another Barry Hussein Soetoro Obama bc..and it is (1961) real? It would state that Obama was born in Kenya and his father's nationally would be stated as Negro and not African like the forgers at Fact Check and Politi Fact put on their 'illegal document' photo copy Obama birth certificate...Sure fooled the idiot's at the Federal Justice Dept.

I can't stand Obama, but you should know that no one's "nationality" would be listed as "Negro."

Negro is a race, not a nationality.

Nationality should have been filled in as "Kenyan" -- not the generic "African" -- Africa is a huge continent with many nations.

AuranVector

That is why this entire mess exists for in the first place, nothing more, nothing less, because his dad's ethnicity is listed as African and not Negro as they did do in the Continental 48.

Originally posted by freedom12
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

 

OMG......are you kidding me? You're gonna claim that this is a real birth certificate from 1930? Let's point out the obvious first 1)Hawaii wasn't even a state til 1959, which is in the insignia at the top of your fake cerficate. 2) the technology used to make your "supposed 1930" certificate wasn't available then. I'd go on, but your picture of this is so obviously fake, why even bother??

Excellent. Hawaii didn't become a state until 1959. In 1930 it was a US Territory.

Originally posted by dereks

Originally posted by derst1988
What was released was a Certificate of Live Birth. Not the real Birth Certificate

Not that birther lie again, Obama showed the only birth certificate Hawaii currently issues. It IS a birth certificate

LOL. No, no its not.

Since when does a US state simply NOT issue a birth certificate? Thanks for the laugh.

reply to post by Nite_wing

Not that most people care but here are a few facts that are verifiable if one will look. I am not going to repeat the sources here because, personally, I don't think I can change any minds, and I don't want to relook them up because I investigated this a year ago.

You did a pretty lousy job. You are wrong on almost every point. There is clearly a reason why you refuse to cite your sources. They are either known lying POS propaganda sites, or they don't exist except in your imagination.

Hawaii became a state in 1959. Obama was born in 1961.

You got that one right.

At the time of Obama's birth Hawaii, having few natural born "citizens of the United States"...

False. According to The Immigration and Nationality Act, Title III, SEC. 305. [8 U.S.C. 1405], "A person born in Hawaii on or after April 30, 1900, is a citizen of the United States at birth." That will be 'millions', not 'few'.

Yes there is debate about whether "Citizen at Birth" = "Natural Born Citizen" in the case of people like John McCain who were born overseas, however, not for persons born on American soil.

...allowed others to verify birth.

False. The State of Hawai'i has a perfectly robust Department of Health and always has had. Even before Statehood.

In order for someone to be considered a U.S. citizen in Hawaii, a family member could simply file an affidavit declaring the birth of a child without producing the original Birth Certificate or the child. A sworn affidavit by a family member was sufficient.

False. On every particular.

There was a territorial law that allowed Hawai'in born children older than 1 year and who had not been previously registered to be registered. Since Obama's registration was accomplished when he was just 4 days old he does not qualify for this program even if it was still in effect in 1961 (which I doubt). (source). Notice that Dwight Eisenhower got his birth certificate just before he ran for President in 1951 on the affidavit of his younger brother (who clearly could have no way of personally knowing anything about the circumstances of Ike's birth).

A law passed in 1982, 21 years after Obama's birth, allows children born out of State and under 1 year old to be registered in Hawai'i under certain circumstances and receive an Hawai'ian Birth Certificate. That Birth Certificate will say the actual place of birth, not Hawaii. If the child was actually born in Mombasa, his Birth Certificate will say Mombasa, not Honolulu. (source). There was no equivalent law in 1961. Obama could not get such a Birth Certificate under any circumstances. Period.

Those same people could also submit notice of birth to the local newspapers making the announcement.

False. The notices were official public notices provided to the newspaper by the Department of Health. (source)

If someone wanted a foreign born family member to appear to be a natural born citizen, Hawaii was the place to do it since no proof was necessary. The fact that his grandparents lived in Hawaii made it an ideal situation to have their grandson appear to be natural born whether he was or not.

False. That is just silly assertions on your part (or rather the propaganda site you are reading). Hawai'ian State law is as robust as any other State, and your allegations are a slander on the people of Hawai'i. If ANY State had procedures as poor as you claim then they would be sued to kingdom come and the US State Department would cancel every single one of the passports issued using that States' birth certificates. There are millions of Hawai'ian born citizens with passports, so that demonstrates the simple wrongness of your assertions.

Telephones and telegrams were available in 1961.

You got another one right.

Hawaii acknowledges the short form as legal proof of birth because their law in 1961 permitted the acquisition of citizenship by affidavit only. That is and was the law. However, it may or may not be the truth.

False. Hawai'i and every State, Territory, District and the Federal Government acknowledges the so-called short form as legal proof of birth in Hawai'i because the Constitution of the United States says

Article IV Section 1: Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state. And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof.

Notice that the Congress defines the standards that records must meet to be compliant:

Notice also that Homeland Security says:

(source)
According to 6 CFR 37.3 [Title 6. Homeland Security; Chapter I. Department of Homeland Security, Office of the Secretary; Part 37. Real Id Driver's Licenses and Identification Cards; Subpart A. General] the term certified copy of a birth certificate means “a copy of the whole or part of a birth certificate registered with the State that the State considers to be the same as the original birth certificate on file with the State Office of Vital Statistics or equivalent agency in a registrant's State of birth.”

And the US Department of State says:

(source)
On April 1, 2011, the US Department of State changed its requirements for birth certificates used as proof of citizenship for purposes of applying for a passport. Effective on that date, all certified birth certificates submitted as proof of citizenship must include the full names of both parents. In addition, the certified birth certificate must include the full name of the passport applicant, his or her date and place of birth, signature of the registrar, date the birth certificate was issued and a multicolored, embossed, raised or impressed seal from the birth certificate's issuing authority. The issuance date of your birth certificate must be within one year of your birth.

(Sorry, I couldn't find a note about the previous rules, but since millions of Hawai'ians hold passports based on the Hawai'ian COLB, I think it can be taken for granted that the old one met the requirements too. Wikipedia claims that previously the parents names were not required by the State Department and that is what changed).

Finally, notice that the Hawai'ian COLB published by the President meets all of those requirements, under both the old and new rules.

So the fact of the matter is, there actually may not be a Birth Certificate (long form)

False. The officials responsible for maintaining the original records of vital events, that is, the officials staffing the Hawai'ian Department of Health Vital Statistics organization have officially confirmed 3 times that they have personally seen the physical document in their files. (one source among many)

and only the Certificate of Live Birth (the short form) which was obtained by affidavit.

False. See above. The so-called short form is a extract of the information on the original long form. It is that subset of information that Hawai'i law defines as the information required on a Birth Certificate, and that subset of information meets the requirements of the Federal Government for the issuance of passports.

The short form is NOT a smaller document that is obtained by registering the birth by some other process than a hospital birth. It has nothing to do with the process, it has to do with the information displayed.

I do not know but I would like to know.

OK, I have tried to educate you here. There is no further need to propagate the slander against the People of Hawai'i from now on.

There really isn't much riding on this except the integrity of our Constitution which has been shredded over the past 20 years or so but yet, I would like to still think the law matters.

Then quit trying to shred the Constitution by demanding that a higher standard of eligibility be established for one person than for any other person who has ever held the office.

It is because of these possibilities that there is a question in my mind about his birth.

Do you have those same questions about any previous President?
Do you have any idea where G.W. Bush was born?

A long form would satisfy my concerns.

See this reconstruction of what the long form would look like.

What new information is there that would satisfy your concerns?
Would you vote for Obama if he released a copy of his so-called long form?

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
It would not matter if his father was born in Australia or elsewhere as long as Obama was born in The USA he is eleigible as the qualification ruling applies to the minor and not the parents.

His dad could've been wanted in 12 nations and as long as his child is American born and bred that is the only thing that matters.

en.wikipedia.org...

Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1874): In this case decided after the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment, the Court stated (pp. 167–68): The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens.

Schneider v. Rusk, 377 U.S. 163 (1964): The Court voided a statute that provided that a naturalized citizen should lose his United States citizenship if, following naturalization, he resided continuously for three years in his former homeland. We start from the premise that the rights of citizenship of the native-born and of the naturalized person are of the same dignity and are coextensive. The only difference drawn by the Constitution is that only the 'natural born' citizen is eligible to be President.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
It would not matter if his father was born in Australia or elsewhere as long as Obama was born in The USA he is eleigible as the qualification ruling applies to the minor and not the parents.

His dad could've been wanted in 12 nations and as long as his child is American born and bred that is the only thing that matters.

en.wikipedia.org...

Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1874): In this case decided after the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment, the Court stated (pp. 167–68): The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens.

Schneider v. Rusk, 377 U.S. 163 (1964): The Court voided a statute that provided that a naturalized citizen should lose his United States citizenship if, following naturalization, he resided continuously for three years in his former homeland. We start from the premise that the rights of citizenship of the native-born and of the naturalized person are of the same dignity and are coextensive. The only difference drawn by the Constitution is that only the 'natural born' citizen is eligible to be President.

edit on 26-4-2011 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

His mother being born in Kansas is a natural born citizen which makes Obama himself a natural born citizen.

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
i love how so many people ignore how he fraudulently used multiple ss numbers from people who were dead. not that thats illegal in any way or anything

given the above, it isn't so hard to believe that his true birth certificate shows indonesia as his birthplace. i think it will eventually come out. i'm willing to bet that trump already has damning evidence, and that hes saving it for the 2012 campaign.

its all a show anyways, written to captivate the observers and make them think their votes actually matter.

I can't stand Obama, but where did you come up with Obama born in Indonesia?

Barry's mother had no connection to Indonesia when Barry was born. It was a few years after Barry was born.

Originally posted by AuranVector

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
i love how so many people ignore how he fraudulently used multiple ss numbers from people who were dead. not that thats illegal in any way or anything

given the above, it isn't so hard to believe that his true birth certificate shows indonesia as his birthplace. i think it will eventually come out. i'm willing to bet that trump already has damning evidence, and that hes saving it for the 2012 campaign.

its all a show anyways, written to captivate the observers and make them think their votes actually matter.

I can't stand Obama, but where did you come up with Obama born in Indonesia?

Barry's mother had no connection to Indonesia when Barry was born. It was a few years after Barry was born.

He did live in Indonesia between 1967 - 1971 but his mother never relinquished either hers or his respective citizenship declarations as his half sister Maya Soetoro-Ng is a full citizen of Indonsesia by birth and is a naturalized citizen of The US.

reply to post by rnaa


Proof of citizenship and natural born citizenship are not the same, and you need to stop presenting it as such. Are you deliberately trying to obfuscate this, or is it just oversight on your part? A candidate for POTUS has to show he/she is natural born. The definition is stated already, a person born in the US or under US jurisdiction of citizen parents. And please note that the John Bingham definition says "citizen parents" not one citizen parent.