The Roman Empire Collapsed Under the Weight of Illegal Immigration and Welfare...

reply to post by korathin


Nicely put.

Originally posted by meeneecat

Originally posted by fredvcall

There is no such thing as an "art appreciation" major. It was presented as a snarky comment that had the effect of belittling the commenters credentials.

North Carolina University Art Appreciation Curriculum

Art Appreciation
Elizabeth City State University

Analysis of selected examples of major art works. Designed to give students an understanding of the purposes and historical roles of the visual arts in Western and Non-Western cultures. Offered Fall, Spring, and Summer.

online.northcarolina.edu...

reply to post by fredvcall

Look. You liberals have three replies that are getting redundant.

Whats a liberal?

There was no welfare. Yes, there was. I supplied articles stating as much. Nobody reads anything. Everyone is a drone repeating the same thing.

Um ok, please define welfare as you see it today. And as it was back then, when Attila and his army was on there warpath.

The third redundancy everyone is beating to death is that you don't like the History Channel. Other than that, nobody is saying anything to back their comments.

Dude I only watch a couple of shows or channels on TV, and the history channel I watch sometimes, though it might as well change its name to the WW2 channel because every time I go there it's usually something to do with that and Hitler. So I'll tell you right now most channels and things you watch I probably spent about 1 min watching so please be more specific when insinuating about something, because you know some of us on this site don't even watch TV at all, or very little.

So, why don't you all just give it up and close this discussion. You've all gone around in circles going nowhere.

OK, bye bye.

Originally posted by masqua
reply to post by fredvcall

 

I'm only asking one question: Is this thread about the Roman Empire or the current social problems in America?

I'm up on the first, but not interested much in the second.

I laugh at the ignorance that is supposed to be denied on this site.

EVERYONE ON THIS THREAD NEEDS TO READ THIS THREAD FIRST!!

www.abovetopsecret.com...

ALL ROADS LEAD TO ROME!! The Roman Empire never collapsed, it expanded to include the whole of the world.

Originally posted by daddio

Originally posted by masqua
reply to post by fredvcall

 

I'm only asking one question: Is this thread about the Roman Empire or the current social problems in America?

I'm up on the first, but not interested much in the second.

I laugh at the ignorance that is supposed to be denied on this site.

EVERYONE ON THIS THREAD NEEDS TO READ THIS THREAD FIRST!!

www.abovetopsecret.com...

ALL ROADS LEAD TO ROME!! The Roman Empire never collapsed, it expanded to include the whole of the world.

edit on 16-4-2011 by daddio because: (no reason given)

Well technically the Roman Empire continued in the east for a few centuries(until the Muslim Turks invaded and began a slow genocide of Christians in present day Turkey and in the Balkans). In the West, the Roman Empire continued on as the Roman Catholic Church. With the last remnants of the old Patriarch nobility becoming Bishops, Cardinals and Popes.

Originally posted by fredvcall
reply to post by spacekc929

 

I'd rather trust the first 400 names listed in the phone book than the history professors at the so-called best universities.

That's why they are well-respected and people think you are somewhat silly.

reply to post by fredvcall


Well, no actually. The Roman Empire collapsed because it became an empire. There were still checks and balances in the days of the Republic. But after Caesar, everything went downhill. He was assassinated because he was to use modern vernacular, a prick. He was born at time when men could get away with acting like gods because they knew, well maybe they had a ways to go yet, sure let them dress in the robes of the gods they thought inhabited the universe, as long as they didn't believe they were gods, they could prance around in cheap copies of their robes, and at the end of the day all would have a good laugh. And of course the gods would laugh as well. Perhaps some of those "gods" thought "look at those silly humans thinking one day they will walk among the stars". They would have seen a distant future when, we would. Christ, the most advanced technology in ancient Rome was the flush toilet. But when Rome fell in the year approximately 500 to 600 ad, (which very recent evidence seems to indicate ANOTHER kind of Europe wide natural disaster between the year 500 and 600 ce. As usual big rocks from space are blamed first but, but there is zero evidence of this, it might have been a volcanic eruption, hell they are beginning to lose moxi in my eyes, cant they at least create Technicolor rain?) But every one at that time was so preoccupied, people forget all writing, well most did, they even forgot the concept of "money". Until the late 1800's every one crapped in a hole in the ground. Or so they thought until we uncovered what many the niceties some of the ancients had.

At least two dozen cultures going back, some close to 10,000 years ago, had much more then, flush toilets. And at least one culture, or an artifact of it, one in the Andes' mountains at an altitude of 16,000 feet?? That goes back so far in time our current technology can't tell how old it is. And least not with out taking samples back to our national labs. Or someones national labs. Any civilization that existed no matter how great before the last ice age, even pyramids made of synthetic diamond would have been ground to dust by ice sheets many miles high. Or shattered and scattered to the winds. I have a feeling we have lost 99% of our knowledge of past human civilizations. Hey, notice I didn't even have to mention aliens once. Thats another can of worms.

reply to post by DINSTAAR

Damm, all one sentence. Welfare has existed in many forms.... back then it was a bribe to ensure of the welfare of the Romans.

Well you can say welfare is a bribe on some levels, but not when you giving gold and land to some conquerer so he wont invade with his army that ain't really welfare, it's negotiating, and really it's just that bribes. And if you read history as you can see by the sacking of Rome, the negotiations and bribes eventually did not work as planned.

Or I guess people can call it welfare it shouldn't matter all that much history is mostly opinions anyways, So OK they wanted more welfare so they marched there army's and burned some towns and killed some people and all that stuff.

Good point. Tyranny is a lot easier to pallet when one is being bribed to forget the problems caused by the tyrants.

Tyranny what does any of this have to do with that, besides all governments and civilizations are run on bribes or iou or you scratch my back I'll scratch yours, it's all transactions among its denizens. And bribery and welfare, are transactions in a society, in certain groups and ways. What do you think politics is, or the whole fiat paper money thing, what do you think the whole bail out were. I't was a transaction between certain parties, ie i'll scratch your back you scratch mine.

I think you are making the opposite point you intended. From what I gather, you are saying welfare is good because it keeps people from revolting from tyranny. I am saying welfare is bad because it keeps people from revolting from tyranny.

NO I said they revolted because situation was #ty, for those who revolted, as in crappy living bottom of the barrel conditions while those in Rome the patriarchs and Patricians had it good. And so many went somewhere else but Rome, and eventually some came back with army's and in army's. So yes in that sense they rebelled against the tyranny because there welfare was not good and getting worse.

And I am not sure what you all mean by welfare in ancient Rome and comparing it to todays welfare, but those who came to Rome came for the very same things they usually come to america, as in jobs, trade, and opportunities that Rome offered since it was the nexus of the world back then. But welfare, I just don't see what you all are trying to say by comparing today's welfare to those times. So I have not read this entire thread but I't just seems like a bunch of bull to me.

If welfare stifles man's will to be free, welfare is the enemy of man.

What are you talking about? It might and it might be used by some for scamming both on the bottom of the pyramid and definitely on the top of the pyramid. But really it's just welfare, # from what I heard and witnessed it ain't even worth much, and it's pathetic really, here have some food stamps buddy, buy some crackers. It's not even get by money, it's just barely surviving money for those in need. But of-course those who scam it and are not in need, well it's just something extra.

I want to reiterate this point.... Rome's perceived immigration problem is a direct result of its rapid empire expansion, not with immigration itself.

Ya there was no immigration as it is today with our advances in automotive and technology, if anything it would of been a really slow process. And really they were just autonomous conquered provinces ruled by roman law and governors who answered to Rome and so forth. I mean it must of took people months and months to go from province to province, and most that traveled were traders in whatever essential goods. And really the only way you would get around would be either if you were some sort of trader, or in the legions, or were rich enough to afford it. The rest moved into one spot built towns, and really they probably spent there whole life and generation withing a certain area. Thats why the legions needed to go there so they can conquer places. Oh and another thing the other way to immigrate to Rome is to be a slave brought back to Rome with the legions and caravans. So slaves probably made up a significant portion of immigrants.

Originally posted by fredvcall
reply to post by DINSTAAR

 

We haven't invaded Mexico in quite a while. Yet, all those illegals coming across the border? What gives with that?

It's called a corporation influx for cheap labor and also making profits. In case you have not heard in our age and with the advent of technology well it has spawned a new system other then the state, a corporation. Really it's such a ridiculous question, it's like asking why are jobs going overseas? I mean duh, profits. It's the same thing only since mexico is close well the workers come here, at least till all the jobs go overseas or are replaced by a machine and more advent of technology and cost affecting processes.

So, who are the "Huns" of the USA? The Mexicans? The Chinese? The Japanese? The Africans? I need to know who so that I can be a little bit more cautious on who I talk to.

Originally posted by fredvcall

Originally posted by IncognitoGhostman
reply to post by Hopeforeveryone

 

Roman Catholic church is the Roman Empire today!


Roman Empire never died it just changed it's face/faith!

So, the question begs: what change does America take? Who takes over? One thing for sure, it won't be those on welfare.

All governments corrupt because they always want more power because greed takes over because we put monetary value on a stupid piece of paper or back in Roman Empire days it was gold and silver.

The only way this world is truly going to be at peace and everyone free is to do away with any monetary systems. We need to back to loving people and helping your neighbors. I know there would be no competition but wouldn't it actually make us advance quicker because we would be working to better all of humanity.

Governments should be replaced with councils kind of like a jury and everyone would have to sit on the council at some point. The only laws we should be held to are natures and doing no harm to your fellow man and if you do then you have to answer to the council.

Originally posted by DevilJin

Oh c'mon now. Do a little more research than that. The fall of the Roman empire is way more complex than "welfare and illegal immigration". I had to do a paper on it in college. You should go to a library and read up on it - the fall of the Roman Empire is very interesting.

Mate great call - I find it incredible that people can, with all honesty and a straight face, declare that the TV is more credible that the library and university. Seriously, absolutely mind boggling levels of profound ignorance and stupidity to even suggest otherwise.

Then we have people raising WIKI as a reliable source - my god.

Come on people - what ever you see on tv is nine tenths crap and eleven tenths made up. Seriously.

To the OP - i have an excellent education - and your post, title and insight wreaks of superfluous stereo types, ignorant generalizations and tabloid grandstanding.

One of the key elements to the fall of Rome was also levels of wheat production, tributes to soldiers, the transition to Christianity, the cost of defending against the northern Barbarians (the Germans) - who had repeatedly, even at the very HEIGHT of Roman power invaded Rome and taken it over or ransacked it.

Honestly, show some respect.

The Roman Empire Collapsed Under the Weight of Illegal Immigration and Welfare

How could this be? At the time of the Roman Empire black people were still in Africa and there were no Mexicans around at the time!

reply to post by arbiture


The Roman's didn't make the history books because they where a "wise and intellectual people", they made the history books for conquering most of Europe.

Everything they learned they learned from others. The Etruscan taught them to be somewhat civilized and they took everything else with the point of a sword from the Greeks and Egyptians.

And it wasn't just Caesar that was a prick. The Romans gladly took in Germanic immigrants who where willing to do whatever was asked of them, but the Romans took it too far. They forced them to trade their children for dog meat or starve. Add in rampant lead poisoning(they used to consume lead like we do salt) + low fertility and the Romans where a doomed people.

Also, Byzantine Emperor Justinian almost restored the Empire. But then the bubonic plague wiped that out.

Even though it is tempting to draw parallels between Rome's immigrant problem and America's, there are significant differences.
The Germanic tribes people didn't have superior rights and legal protections than Roman citizens; while in the US illegal immigrants from Mexico enjoy superior legal protection and superior rights(in some regards) than American citizens.

Originally posted by korathin
reply to post by arbiture

 

The Roman's didn't make the history books because they where a "wise and intellectual people", they made the history books for conquering most of Europe.

Everything they learned they learned from others. The Etruscan taught them to be somewhat civilized and they took everything else with the point of a sword from the Greeks and Egyptians.

And it wasn't just Caesar that was a prick. The Romans gladly took in Germanic immigrants who where willing to do whatever was asked of them, but the Romans took it too far. They forced them to trade their children for dog meat or starve. Add in rampant lead poisoning(they used to consume lead like we do salt) + low fertility and the Romans where a doomed people.

Also, Byzantine Emperor Justinian almost restored the Empire. But then the bubonic plague wiped that out.

Even though it is tempting to draw parallels between Rome's immigrant problem and America's, there are significant differences.
The Germanic tribes people didn't have superior rights and legal protections than Roman citizens; while in the US illegal immigrants from Mexico enjoy superior legal protection and superior rights(in some regards) than American citizens.

You are correct to point out that there are vast differences between ancient Rome and any modern state. And it wasn't just Caesar who had an Eddie Haskel complex. There has been a lot written in the last twenty years about the role of lead in the food and drink of the nobility, and specifically the Roman soldier in destabilizing the empire. Many of Caesars physical symptoms (such as severe leg pain) are clear signs of acute lead poisoning. His seizures could have been toxicological in origin as well as there is no record of him suffering a head injury, (that does not mean he didn't fall down the steps...), but nothing "official" as in battle. As for the Romans "learning everything from everyone else", that only goes so far. They didn't invent the siege engine, but they made it more transportable over irregular terrain, an early version of "pre-fab construction". They took many ideas as most of us do that came before and improved upon them. As for Justinian almost restoring the empire, that would have been a stretch even without the plague. Keep in mind pandemics/epidemics of plague were quite common in the ancient world.

The biggest problem Justinian would have faced was no common currency, and the loss of long established trade routes, and disintegration of advanced farming methods that conserve water like terraced farming in north Africa. But more then that was his knack for making enemies. Any politician dippy enough to believe his own bull is doomed.

reply to post by fredvcall




The period is not called migration period just for the heck of it. Makes sense to me.

reply to post by fredvcall


I love the history channel. But it is a bit like dipping your left big toe into the ocean. It's just a little taste, not the whole story --> and I've seen some extremely biased shows on there. I only know a lot about a very few subjects, and I saw one of those subjects be blatantly misrepresented on a show there once.

So, you know, don't take it as gospel. Do some research.

reply to post by SPACEYstranger
Only someone 15 calls someone a "prick" MODS !!!
All you do is call people names and insulting. That is abusive and not allowed.

reply to post by Maslo


Migration. Immigration. Tomato. Tomoto.