The Roman Empire Collapsed Under the Weight of Illegal Immigration and Welfare...

reply to post by fredvcall


A better example you should have used is the downfall of the First Peoples of North and Central America, and how migration & illegal "immigration" and religion of Europeans brought down nations. Someone in a previous post mentioned cycles...could be.




Also, one of the reasons for the decline of the Roman Empire according to the experts (not from the History Channel)...the hoarding of wealth and greed amongst the elite. Hmmmm......

reply to post by masqua


With all due respect, the two are completely analogous.

His comment is legit.

reply to post by felonius


[imo]
The constitution of the United States, as conceived by the fathers of confederation, is founded upon the lessons and principles which are found in Edward Gibbons first volume in the series titled Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, published in 1776.
[/imo]

I have read them all.

What I disagree with are the majority of determinations presented by the OP as to the leading causes of that ruin. The immigration he speaks of is not civilian, it was the induction of conquered militaries into the various Roman legions which were also concurrently led by as many as 4 seperate and warring ceasars or consuls. West against east, brother against brother, religion against religion. That was the true cause for its destruction.

The final act was by the greed of the Romans themselves. The city and its monuments were finally torn apart by the elites to build fortifications for themselves. The Seven Hills became a wasteland of tumbled ruins, scavenged for marble to build these castles. Rome became afraid of Romans to such a degree that even the provinces of Italy itself were ignored and left to fend for themselves.

Welfare and its effects? It has yet to be determined whether it was bread or circuses which impoverished the capitol. Certainly the monies paid to allay threats contributed.

reply to post by fredvcall


Hey little brother, Illegitimi non carborundum,

Someone posted earlier that the RE rely never went away. Thats partly correct. Proto Travelers post was EPIC on this!

What happened is (being smart rats), they changed gears. No more military on THEIR payroll and other "tweaks".

Another person brought up the dark ages. I've really never considered that event until now. Where were these "power players"?

Maybe they chucked it all because they got tired of paying for all of the services and wanted to "streamline" the operation LOL!

You can't really even compare the United States to the Roman Empire to start off with, there is no comparison. At one point, the Roman Empire consisted of 1/5 of the population of the world. The irony of it is the fact that made the empire so strong and lasting was its acceptance and tolerance of other cultures and religions.

I'm kinda wondering where the OP even got his idea of illegal immigration, Attila the Hun and the welfare state, leading to the fall of Rome???

America ranks dead last on social spending out of 34 industrialized countries. Yet all the countries with high social welfare spending have a lower unemployment rate and a higher percentage of their population in the middle class, where as the United States has a much higher percentage of its population in poverty. If welfare was so horrible for the population, why are all the countries that are spending more on social programs doing far better than the US when it comes to production and having a bigger middle class? I would have to agree with a previous poster, that it seems like the Hording of Wealth, much like what is happening in the united states today, is a bigger part of what causes some nations to fail. But i'm not on the history channel so I guess I don't qualify as an expert. Nor are many professors that have done much more research than anyone on this website, but sense they aren't on tv, I guess we shouldn't listen to them.


Here is a link to the report
Social spending of countries

By the way, on this website, it's very good to come with actual links, if at all possible, to back up your claim.

reply to post by dwmjr1985


Excellent post! Those who are always talking about “we don’t want a nanny welfare state” are basically crazy and ultimately immoral and hypocritical, because such welfare spending has to be or modern society couldn’t function and many would be left by the wayside.

Until we develop a mature, moral and ethical, scientific based society that allows freedom and at the same time provides a basic decent living for ALL of its citizens and a control on capitalism we need social welfare.

Originally posted by dwmjr1985
America ranks dead last on social spending out of 34 industrialized countries. Yet all the countries with high social welfare spending have a lower unemployment rate and a higher percentage of their population in the middle class, where as the United States has a much higher percentage of its population in poverty.

Poverty in America is over-advertised. There's so much publicity about super wealthy celebrities that the lamestream media does what it can to supply the yang to the yin.

Originally posted by Tiste
reply to post by fredvcall

 

A better example you should have used is the downfall of the First Peoples of North and Central America, and how migration & illegal "immigration" and religion of Europeans brought down nations. Someone in a previous post mentioned cycles...could be.

]

This goes back to what I said earlier: Welfare is a way to control the masses. We know when you cash your welfare check. We know where you spend your food stamps. We keep you standing in line. Etc.

reply to post by felonius


There have always been the poor. Now that the population has hit seven billion, there are that many more poor.

Welfare is throwing a bone to the poor. Training them which way to turn. Which way to grovel.

I'd say the tactic is working, because even though Louis Farrakhan predicts that there will be a Libyan style revolution in America, long as the poor are being tossed bones, and being kept in ever tightening circles, a poor man's revolution would be stomped down in no time. If it ever got started at all.

The DEA is controlling the illegal drug market to the extent that the big time drug dealers are led on an invisible leash right into the prison yards. Where they kill each other with shives.

Originally posted by arbiture
reply to post by fredvcall

 

Well, no actually. The Roman Empire collapsed because it became an empire.

Let's go with the theory that the Roman Empire did not so much collapse as it evolved into the Vatican. Between the Rome of the Caesars and the Vatican (and the various Mafia families), we're talking about quite a few millennia of power.

The Neapolitan Camorra Mafia began in Spanish prisons during the Spanish Inquisition, then migrated southward to the Italian prisons during the Roman Inquisition.

Originally posted by galadofwarthethird
reply to post by fredvcall

Whats a liberal?

Oh, come on. You really, really don't want to go there.

Originally posted by spacekc929

That's why they are well-respected and people think you are somewhat silly.

And I'm sure in high school the kids all laughed at the geek Bill Gates.

The only way this world is truly going to be at peace and everyone free is to do away with any monetary systems. .

And replaced with what? Though I am finding in my travels that more and more people are relying more and more on barter......and creating their own forms of currency.

Originally posted by spacekc929
So please, OP, I beg you. Please stop giving America a bad name. Please stop giving HUMANITY a bad name, grow up, listen to those who know more than you, and by God, stop equating invasion with immigration and bribery with welfare. It doesn't matter how many times you say War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength, 2 + 2 = 5... what you are saying is SIMPLY NOT TRUE. Get a grip.

Thank you for providing the majority of us some clear level headed input to a bizarre left-field thread.

Put it this way: None of today's leaders want to be called 'Caesar.' Smacks of bad taste.

And there's only ONE pope.

A Caesar by any other name is still a Caesar by another name.

reply to post by fredvcall


that is what I'm getting at barter is the only thing that would work. It's all about helping each other with whatever you can.

Humanity is the key! You know like they said in the movie 2012, when we lose compassion for our fellow man is when we lose our humanity. Humanity is the one thing that separates us from most animals on this planet and we are losing that.

I sit here and type all this and that as do you yet neither one of us does anything about it. We are just as much the problem as governments by not standing up for that homeless family or that starving child. It doesn't matter what country they are in it only matters that they are on this planet!

We all need to get past "Oh they did what, We wouldn't do that, US is a bunch of Capitalistic pigs, those communist Chinese" I mean when is it all going to stop! With technology and human resources alive today we can without a doubt prosper much more so once we get rid of all government and only then will it work.

It can only start right here you and me and every single person on ATS. We talk about what is wrong in the world today yet we do nothing about it. I am putting a call out to humanity to please get up and go out and stop this. Get your neighbors, family, friends, everyone you pass. Get them to realize that it can all stop but it's going to take them.

Originally posted by masqua
reply to post by felonius

 

[imo]
The constitution of the United States, as conceived by the fathers of confederation, is founded upon the lessons and principles which are found in Edward Gibbons first volume in the series titled Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, published in 1776.
[/imo]

I have read them all.

What I disagree with are the majority of determinations presented by the OP as to the leading causes of that ruin. The immigration he speaks of is not civilian, it was the induction of conquered militaries into the various Roman legions which were also concurrently led by as many as 4 seperate and warring ceasars or consuls. West against east, brother against brother, religion against religion. That was the true cause for its destruction.

The final act was by the greed of the Romans themselves. The city and its monuments were finally torn apart by the elites to build fortifications for themselves. The Seven Hills became a wasteland of tumbled ruins, scavenged for marble to build these castles. Rome became afraid of Romans to such a degree that even the provinces of Italy itself were ignored and left to fend for themselves.

Welfare and its effects? It has yet to be determined whether it was bread or circuses which impoverished the capitol. Certainly the monies paid to allay threats contributed.

Point made.

Arminius ("Herman the German") took plenty LOL! A fool and their gold are easily separated.

reply to post by IncognitoGhostman


It's nice to have the convenience to be concerned about 'humanity.' But, when there's only three billion loaves of bread left among seven billion people, somebody's going to starve. If you are last in line, you will be one of the starvers.

The Black Plague finally stopped when there weren't enough people left alive to keep spreading the pandemic.

reply to post by felonius


Herman the German? Oh, man.