This is how John McCarthy Roll died (Tuscon Shooting)

Originally posted by filosophia

Originally posted by IamAbeliever
Can you agree that this would cause almost instantaneous death?

It could, but so can a gunshot wound to the head. I want the truth, based on evidence, not speculation. Is it a crime to be talking about this? If it wasn't for this thread, would you know the circumstances of Roll's death? Here is an NPR article on the triage performed after the scene of the crime

www.npr.org...

Nowhere does it mention John McCarthy Roll. Type in his name, it won't come up. We heard how the nine year old girl was killed, and how Giffords is recovering. So what about the other victims? Why haven't we been told who pronounced them dead? Why haven't we seen video of it? Oh, that's right, because the trial isn't over yet, I guess I'll just have to wait till September, or 2013

edit on 14-4-2011 by filosophia because: (no reason given)

No one allowed him to die and that is that, there is no conspiracy here, no one is hiding anything. Stop trying to make a claim when one clearly does not exist. All so that you can try and make it connect back to Obama.

reply to post by filosophia


I'm sorry but it seems to me you are the one engaged in speculation. The autopsy clearly states his aorta was pierced which led to him bleeding out in his chest cavity. The aorta is THE major artery in the body, I don't think anyone has much of a chance to survive getting shot there; the fact his chest cavity was filled with blood shows he bled out from the pierced aorta.

This sort of bleeding out would take seconds. That guy was dead long before any EMS showed up. I'm sure if there were any signs of life they would have raced him to the hospital.

Your asking us to believe the FBI wanted him dead, and left him there purposely to die. But if the FBI did want him dead, they would have scooped him up in an ambulance and delivered the coup de grace out of the public's view, and John Roll would have simply arrived at the hospital DOA.

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer


Your asking us to believe the FBI wanted him dead

Wrong, I'm asking who in the FBI pronounced him dead, which you can't provide for me. Also, it was the descending aorta.

Originally posted by filosophia

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer


Your asking us to believe the FBI wanted him dead

Wrong, I'm asking who in the FBI pronounced him dead, which you can't provide for me. Also, it was the descending aorta.

When The FBI pronnounces someone dead guess what, it is The FBI making the announcement and not a single individual.

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1

Originally posted by filosophia

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer


Your asking us to believe the FBI wanted him dead

Wrong, I'm asking who in the FBI pronounced him dead, which you can't provide for me. Also, it was the descending aorta.

When The FBI pronnounces someone dead guess what, it is The FBI making the announcement and not a single individual.

that's absurd, the FBI is not a real person, they can't announce anything. Organizations are fronted by individuals, an agency can not talk.

Hi, I'm talking with the FBI. My, are you losing weight?

FBI: yes, although I gained 30,000 employees last year I managed to compact them in unnoticeable areas.

Well, this has been a nice talk with the FBI, say hi to the CIA for me. Is the TSA still dating Homeland Security? I wonder what their kids would look like.

Originally posted by filosophia

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer


Your asking us to believe the FBI wanted him dead

Wrong, I'm asking who in the FBI pronounced him dead, which you can't provide for me. Also, it was the descending aorta.

The ascending aorta delivers oxygenated blood to the brain, while the descending aorta delivers it to the lower part of the body--abdomen, vital organs, legs, etc. Regardless of whether it was ascending or descending, the fact is it's still the main artery that supplies blood to the body. So yes, he would have been dead within seconds, long before any help could have arrived.

The autopsy states Roll was found to have a perforated aorta from the gunshot. He was found to have blood in the peritoneal cavity (hemoperitoneum).

You then speculated on the hemoperitoneum was "internal bleeding", without addressing the fact the bleeding was from a pierced aorta, THE major blood vessel of the body. If you had read the Wikipedia source you linked to, you'll see that hemoperitoneum could be caused by a large number of conditions, some more fatal than others.

We don't know if he died within seconds of being shot or within a few minutes. According to the timeline of emergency responders to the scene Roll wasn't the only one announced dead at the scene.

[...the shooting began at 10:10, the first calls went out 10:11] ... the first medical personnel were dispatched at 10:14 a.m. and arrived five minutes later. The medical crews were held back from entering the shopping-center parking lot for three minutes while the sheriff's deputies secured the scene. The fire engine and ambulance crews were waved in about 10:22:56 a.m., and the race to provide triage and treatment for those who were still living began.

Arizona shooting time-line details rescuers' response in report

Responders took victims who still had a heartbeat to the hospital and even some of those didn't make it.

With Roll's type of injury he would likely have died within seconds, maybe he hung on for a few minutes, but that would be it. It was a good 12+ minutes before emergency crews could even get to the scene and how much longer before they got to him specifically?

The guy was murdered by Loughner. If you want to paint a picture that the FBI murdered him, then YOU find the names of the agent's on the scene and build your case. As it is, all your doing is speculation.

Let me ask you this, are you a medical professional? Are you a pathologist? Can you accurately interpret an autopsy? Or do you read a term like "hemoperitoneum" and presume to know what it is or how it affects the body?

The pathologist who performed the autopsy stated he died from a homicide, from the perforated aorta, he described the head wound as incidental from falling, NO WHERE does he claim the victim laid there for hours slowly bleeding out. If that were the case his body temperature would have indicated he was still alive long after the shooting, but that isn't the case.

Death occurs immediately after traumatic rupture of the thoracic aorta 75%–90% of the time since bleeding is so severe, and 80–85% of patients die before arriving at a hospital.

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Blackmarketeer


Tell me one way you can determine time of death without being hooked up to the patient's heart? You are assuming the piercing of the aorta resulted in near instantaneous death, when in fact this was not published in the report, nor could they know this information, they only say that it was pierced and resulted in blood loss. The report says manner of death was 'homicide' which basically is translated as "a man shot another man" the report does not say "manner of death was piercing of aorta" because they can not with accurate knowledge determine exactly what caused the death. If, however, a medical doctor was on the scene, then they could have had an accurate indication if the patient was alive or not, an accurate indication does not happen 7.5 hours after the incident.

So show me a link to who performed the triage of John Roll and I will shut up. I already posted an article from NPR which talks about the triage but does not mention John Roll once by name in the article.

reply to post by filosophia

Tell me one way you can determine time of death without being hooked up to the patient's heart?

The temperature of the liver, mottling of the skin, and pooling of the blood. Gravity will cause the blood to drain to the lowest point, obviously, which means you can estimate how long a person has been dead by how much of the blood volume is settled in the portion of the body closest to the surface it's on.

Originally posted by IamAbeliever

Death occurs immediately after traumatic rupture of the thoracic aorta 75%–90% of the time since bleeding is so severe, and 80–85% of patients die before arriving at a hospital.

en.wikipedia.org...

Again, plausible, but if 75% die then 25% live, so we can speculate that he was old, he was in the 75th percentile, or we can look towards who performed the triage on Roll. And, if it was an FBI agent, and they were guilty of a conspiracy, how convenient that we are not allowed to know this information until the trial (which may be in 2013).

Originally posted by IamAbeliever
reply to post by filosophia

 

Tell me one way you can determine time of death without being hooked up to the patient's heart?

The temperature of the liver.

how do you do it when the body was cold? (which it was, full rigor mortis, body was cool).

Originally posted by filosophia

Originally posted by IamAbeliever

Death occurs immediately after traumatic rupture of the thoracic aorta 75%–90% of the time since bleeding is so severe, and 80–85% of patients die before arriving at a hospital.

en.wikipedia.org...

Again, plausible, but if 75% die then 25% live, so we can speculate that he was old, he was in the 75th percentile, or we can look towards who performed the triage on Roll. And, if it was an FBI agent, and they were guilty of a conspiracy, how convenient that we are not allowed to know this information until the trial (which may be in 2013).

I give up. Sure there are many variables to any death, each case is different. You have developed tunnel vision and convinced yourself that there is something out of the ordinary here. Take a step back and look at the big picture. You're arguing just for the sake of arguing. It's ok to be wrong sometimes.

Originally posted by filosophia

Originally posted by IamAbeliever

Death occurs immediately after traumatic rupture of the thoracic aorta 75%–90% of the time since bleeding is so severe, and 80–85% of patients die before arriving at a hospital.

en.wikipedia.org...

Again, plausible, but if 75% die then 25% live, so we can speculate that he was old, he was in the 75th percentile, or we can look towards who performed the triage on Roll. And, if it was an FBI agent, and they were guilty of a conspiracy, how convenient that we are not allowed to know this information until the trial (which may be in 2013).

There is no conspiracy afoot, my, my, who has sent you to try and claim conspiracy because this is baseless.

What do you not get? No one allowed him to die, no one is hiding anything. Dang, get a hobby.

Originally posted by filosophia

Originally posted by IamAbeliever
reply to post by filosophia

 

Tell me one way you can determine time of death without being hooked up to the patient's heart?

The temperature of the liver.

how do you do it when the body was cold? (which it was, full rigor mortis, body was cool).

The liver will give you a core body temperature. It's a method used in all investigations when a time of death is unknown. Rigor mortis doesn't occur because a body is cold. It's due to a chemical process in the muscles, involving calcium, which controls muscles. Sets in about 3 hours after death, reaches it's peak at about 12 hours, and then subsides after about 72 hours, at which point the body is flexible again.

Originally posted by IamAbeliever

Originally posted by filosophia

Originally posted by IamAbeliever

Death occurs immediately after traumatic rupture of the thoracic aorta 75%–90% of the time since bleeding is so severe, and 80–85% of patients die before arriving at a hospital.

en.wikipedia.org...

Again, plausible, but if 75% die then 25% live, so we can speculate that he was old, he was in the 75th percentile, or we can look towards who performed the triage on Roll. And, if it was an FBI agent, and they were guilty of a conspiracy, how convenient that we are not allowed to know this information until the trial (which may be in 2013).

I give up. Sure there are many variables to any death, each case is different. You have developed tunnel vision and convinced yourself that there is something out of the ordinary here. Take a step back and look at the big picture. You're arguing just for the sake of arguing. It's ok to be wrong sometimes.

Don't give up and disprove this person who is trying to make a mountain out of an anthill. This one only sees in tunnel vision and is consistently failing to see the bigger picture here that you and I clearly see.

I come with FBI's Standard procedure of operation and she calls it speculation, there is no speculation here.

Are you an EMT?

reply to post by IamAbeliever


look at the bigger picture indeed. Why not look at how gun legislation is already being proposed and talked about because some nut job decided to kill people. Then look at how much media attention they gave this when people die of gunshot wounds all the time. Then look at how they used the confusion of this event to blame the tea party and Sarah Palin (whom I don't even like) claiming the political rhetoric caused the attack, then look at how this all screams pysch warfare because the shots were made with too much precision, there is no photographic evidence of what happened, and the mugshots have been altered and fabricated, how the court drawings look like a different person, and the super star lawyer Judy Clarke taking over the case and wanting it postponed until 2013. So yes, please look at the bigger picture.

reply to post by TheImmaculateD1


this is my hobby. Is your hobby to disprove claims you hear on the internet?

WebMD article pertaining to liver temperature :

firstaid.webmd.com...

reply to post by TheImmaculateD1


I was a Paramedic for many years, and now am a Registered Nurse. I have dealt with my fair share of death and homicide scenes. We have given the OP all the scientific, criminal investigation, and medical techniques necessary to disprove what they are saying.