French ban on Islamic face veil comes into force

Originally posted by torqpoc
reply to post by 23432

 

Dear 23432,
I am not as adept with the quotation system as you, so I will answer your responses individually in order:

Arab cultural practices do seem out of place in rural, predominant white France. That is kind of pointless to state, but ok. Any practice which isn't the norm when put into a rural environment, which by the definition of rural implies less exposure to the mainstream will be out of place. It could be anything, not just a cultural practice, however you missed my point totally. The "Tagine" is a French national dish, much like the "Tikka Massala" is in the UK. The Arabisation, much like the Indianisation of the UK, happened a long time ago when France decided to colonise those specific parts of North Africa. You always bring back something from your colonies, in this case it was the culture, the architecture (to a certain degree) but not Sharia or Wahabism. Again I refer to the 1st generation Muslims who integrated versus the later more yobbish types who refuse to integrate.

Hello T

Perhaps I should make it more clearer .
My logic is as follows ; If there are approx. 6 million muslims in France , some of them bound to follow Sharia & Wahabism too .
This is inevitable as day follow night . First wave of muslims were not ' locals ' so to speak .
Current generation of muslims are locals yet aren't natives to the land .
Their yobbish behaviour is actually expected because these people are rootless and usually are stressed due to their own predicament .
Muslim in a non muslim land ?
That is hard for most muslims , just like the most christians would find it rather hard to live amongs muslims .
Why don't they go back ?
If asked by the majority of natives in a democratic way ; I believe most muslims would leave European soil willingly .

I don't think Europe can afford to expell her muslim population by means of violence .
Yet it can be done via Democracy .

Of course there is Bosnia and Albania but they are natives of Europe so , really , Europe has to learn to live in peace with her own kind .

Yes France was the first in establishing it's premise of Liberte, Egalitie, Fraternite. Do you know the history behind it though and how many of the forerunners were murdered by their compatriots? Anyway I digress, I am pretty sure at the time they did not ever believe this idiom would be used to defend the wearing of a garment which in it's own religion is a falacy and outright symbolises (however you want to package it) the oppression of womankind in the Islamic world. You can't take a statement out of context, much like the US constitution is to this day regarding gun laws. This French law is not a legislation against personal choice in what garments can be worn, this is where all of you liberals are going off on a tangent. Read the law, educate yourself about the actual word of the law. It is about wearing this garment in public places (specific targetting), and about trying to stop men forcing women to wear it. The fines for men are insanely huge versus those for women. They are attempting to change a practice, they are attempting to liberate women.

Liberation of women via regulating what she willingly chooses to wear ?
This is a bad example I am afraid .
How would you reason with a girl who wants to wear it without being oppressed by anyone ?
Answer me that question if you can because I can't really find an answer to it myself .
What if SHE wants none of your liberation nor any of the change you are attempting to bring into her life without her consent ?
She has to give her consent for it to be legal and be within the law , wouldn't you say so too ?

As for men who forces their wives to wear it , persecute them under existing laws . Meddling in some elses affairs comes to mind if I may be so bold .

A willing burqa wearer in France can't enjoy those very principles which made French what it is . That is a pity indeed and it shows the stress of the society in general .

The example of the wearing of the swastika is totally on par. I couldn't find anything more shocking to show the symbolisation here. It is exactly the same, a government refuses for it's citizens to wear something which they deem offensive and furthermore the people of the country deem offensive. End of similarity. Your next comment also made me chuckle in an ironic sense. Sadly, I don't know any other extremist religious group out there who straps bombs to themselves and commits suicide in the belief they are going to be martyrs, do you? So, since these specific groups decide to do this, the link between the fear of the Burqua in a security measure is THEIR fault. If all Muslims, or let's be specific all suicide bombers were not Islamic extremists, then I still think the Burqua would be banned in public for the issues I have mentioned before about women's oppression.

Tamils and Kamikazes comes to mind . Muslims are not the only ones who commit suicede missions . But you see , here is the problem ; there are 6 millions potential suicide bombers in France according to how you probably think .

Burqa being a security measure ?
Well , perhaps there is a point about this but it really is miniscule .
A coat would definetely do the same job as burqa . So if this is about security , I don't feel safer , so to speak nor should you .

Public places might ban burqa , following the Turks and some Arabs ; but let me tell you , there will always be a miniscule number of women out there who will tell you that their rights are being violated .

How do we deal with them ?

Do they not count ?

The practice of wearing the Burqua was born out of female rationalisation through image.. i'm sorry, what are you smoking or where did you read that ?

I am smoking good old tabacco . If you think about the issue at hand i.e why human beings cover themselves , you would probably arrive at the same conclusion as many people do . Clothing is not for covering as you would know too .
Burqa wearing women see themselves as ' better ' human beings . That is how a female psyche rationalises the action of covering themselves , looking like ninja's .

I often would take the mickey out of my burqa wearing cousin in the past . I actually talk to burqa wearing women who were not oppressed .
You should do the same and see that there is a whole lot of new facts to be discovered .

I think you need to do a little more research about where the practice was born out of. For a start it wasn't born out of the Qu'ran, so yes there you are right it is also about education, but that isn't the responsability of the French government, they already educate masses of illegal immigrants for free, should they now try to educate them on the mistakes within their religion, I think not.

'Them' being just about 300 women , I think you are being rather greedy . Why do you assume that all 6 million muslims would need education about this subject ? Doesn't the % 99 of muslims in France do not wear this garment , yes ? The conclusion being that they are ' educated ' enough to not fall for extremists views .

Is there really a problem with burqa wearers in France or are you also silently adding ALL immigration problems on top of this particular one ?
You know , if you wanted to eat an elephant , you would start with a small piece first , you wouldn't try to shove the whole animal in to your mouth in one go , would you ?

You don't know the French half as well as you think you do, yes they have a tendency to perform political U-turns, so does the UK, US and most world governments. Yes they have always been split between left and right, which is part of the French culture, but they have been working (all sides) on this issue for years and finally agreed and put it through. It will not be overturned, and if it is then you'll see masses of French on the streets protesting.

Well my money is on this law being cancelled in next 2 years . I bet you a double smileys and hope Allah will forgive me for my indiscreet behaviour .
Masses of French comes out and protests then government of France will have no choice but to go further political right and that my friend is not good for French either .

It was not just the French who decided by the way, lots of discussions were had between the government and Muslim groups. Lots of French, Muslim women voted for the wearing of the Burqua to be banned. I'll repeat that, lots of French Muslim women.

It doesn't surprise me that the French muslim women wouldn't want burqa . Why would they ? They live at the heart of fashion , obviously they will enjoy it .

Still , they also are making a mistake imho .

This is an issue about personal freedom and liberty and justice .

Any Muslim women who voluntarily wear this garment do so out of lack of education and following a practice which was "manipulated".

This is not entirely true . There are women out there who does wear this thing without being manipulated or oppressed . They are the ones who will be deprived those 3 things ( Liberte, Egalitie, Fraternite) we are talking about .

I don't care if they are offended and nor does the French or the French government. Ultimately they will either accept or not. At some stage you have to draw the line as I stated many posts back.

Regards,
T

Well , carefull there T , you may be on your way to tyranny .
One must obtain the consent of the governed , otherwise it is a regime of tyranny .
It makes no difference how few the number of people who are denied freedom , liberty and justice .

That is where the problem really is with this new law .

Kindly

reply to post by poet1b


Once again we see the true issue here, your worry that people become 'isolated' from main stream society.

In other words think for themselves and pursue the things that they individually want in life frightening the herd that it's loosing its cohesiveness as a herd and the ability of those in the herd to dominate everyone in it with their rules.

You imagine you are 'protecting' people by this noble belief, but the truth is your herd is trillions of dollars in debt, at perpetual war, afraid of the boogie man, and fearful of one another, and desperately trying to make everyone conform to one set of standards for your own power and security.

I hate to break it to you, I don't want isolated from mainstream society, I want to avoid it at any and all costs, because in reality your all a bunch of fruit cakes who can't tolerate anyone who doesn't think and act exactly like you, and will go to any extreme including imprisoning people who have never hurt anyone, murdering people that have never hurt anyone and defaming people who have never hurt anyone to force everyone to conform.

That's your herd, and your complaint is that the herd isn't more effective at that.

Man look in the mirror, there is your enemy.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Once again, you are trying to lay your own phobias and xenophobias on me.

You continue to avoid the critical point point of the matter.

You do not have the right to control a woman against her will.

Do all the kinky stuff you want, maybe you need that to feel like a man, but when the woman says stop, you had better stop, because the vast majority of men in the western world will make sure that you do stop, and would like to make it so that you can never again be given the opportunity to physically abuse a woman against her will.

The burqa is a tool that allows men to control and isolate women from the world, makes them feel helpless. For the same reasons that we do not allow people to walk around naked, or wear a gun, we should not allow a woman to wear a burqa. It simply leaves too much room for abuse.

reply to post by PurpleDog UK


The Burka is not an islamic religious garment. Its a garment of afganistan women. I feel it should be banned everywhere .

reply to post by 23432

Liberation of women via regulating what she willingly chooses to wear ?

Yeah, your argument is like Proto's. She wants me to slap her around. Ignore those pleas for mercy, it is just kinky sex.

We live in democratic style governments, so we follow the will of the people, and a majority of them, a majority of women, and even a majority of Muslim, women do not want the burqas to be worn in public, because it is viewed as abusive, and a tool for controlling women, and isolating them from public so that their men are free to abuse them.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler



Wow....You put your assuming to a whole new level. I treat a woman how she wishes to be treated. If it's like a whore, then she gets that. If its like a princess, she gets that. Thats personal, and yes, I was raised that women are to be respected and treated well in any way they desire. Think Old West values. Thats me.

That aside, these women aren't nessisarily thinking "I'm a liberated tent wearer!". maybe they do like it. If they do, well and dandy, but that doesn't fit into the French culture, so they can continue that lifestyle in the land or thier origin.

reply to post by poet1b

You do not have the right to control a woman against her will.

Who said I was, I am not the one supporting a law that does just that, by denying them the right to wear something.

It's you trying to control a woman against her will.

All I am displaying is that you understand little to nothing about women, or their will, just that you don't want them wearing certain things, and so you understand it doesn't matter what reason you invent for not wanting them to wear certain things, it's still you wanting the law to prevent them from wearing certain things.

So you are the one looking for the right to control a woman against her will by doing it through the law.

You are the one missing the point, you are the one who favors using the law to force women to conform to your standards.

Makes no reason how you pretend that's for some other reason that you imagine serves them, you are still supporting denying them their right to make a personal choice by using the law to do that.

That's all about you and doesn't have a darn thing to do about them, and in fact makes you the very thing you claim to be fighting against.

Sorry this all escapes you, but you are so busy lying to yourself to justify wanting to use the law to make women conform to your image and will, obstensibly to prevent any other man from doing that, that you can't even honestly see it.

The good news is I have seen you grow quite a bit during my couple years on ATS so I haven't given up on the possibility that one day you will see honestly what you are doing and how wrong it is.

Why do so many people, mainly liberals, cry and whine about so-called "Muslim" rights to wear a sack over their face in a non-muslim country, and yet they are totally silent about the rights of non-muslims in Muslim countries? One may not agree with the French ant-headbag law, but France is like a million times more free for people to have their fredom of religious practices than ANY Muslim nation. I mean, it all seems one way, like the "rights" of Muslims to NOT assimilate is important, but the rights of non-Muslim to freely live their way in Muslim nations does not matter. Something is wrong here.

Originally posted by IronArm
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Wow....You put your assuming to a whole new level. I treat a woman how she wishes to be treated. If it's like a whore, then she gets that. If its like a princess, she gets that. Thats personal, and yes, I was raised that women are to be respected and treated well in any way they desire. Think Old West values. Thats me.

That aside, these women aren't nessisarily thinking "I'm a liberated tent wearer!". maybe they do like it. If they do, well and dandy, but that doesn't fit into the French culture, so they can continue that lifestyle in the land or thier origin.

So in other words they can't be free to be women in France either.

They are simply free to conform to French Standards in a forced process, which is of course much better, and more moral than having to conform to the imagined or real standards of their husband.

So in reality France is really no freer of a society than the one that they came from.

Conform or get out, do as we say, be like we want, it's good for you, that's what freedom really is.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Originally posted by IronArm
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Wow....You put your assuming to a whole new level. I treat a woman how she wishes to be treated. If it's like a whore, then she gets that. If its like a princess, she gets that. Thats personal, and yes, I was raised that women are to be respected and treated well in any way they desire. Think Old West values. Thats me.

That aside, these women aren't nessisarily thinking "I'm a liberated tent wearer!". maybe they do like it. If they do, well and dandy, but that doesn't fit into the French culture, so they can continue that lifestyle in the land or thier origin.

So in other words they can't be free to be women in France either.

They are simply free to conform to French Standards in a forced process, which is of course much better, and more moral than having to conform to the imagined or real standards of their husband.

So in reality France is really no freer of a society than the one that they came from.

Conform or get out, do as we say, be like we want, it's good for you, that's what freedom really is.

If you don't like the country, leave.

Pretty simple. If you are a Christian in Iraq and going to be beheaded, leave. If you are a Muslim in France and you pout cause you can't cover your face, leave.

Countries are based on THIER cultures, and catering to THIER nationality. Its how it goes.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I understand fully well that the vast majority of women do not want to wear a burqa, and see it as the traveling prison that it is.

In the Muslim world women wear burqas because they are forced to wear burqas.
In the the rest of the world, Muslim women wear burqas because they are forced to wear burqas.
Do you deny this?
Do you think it is alright to force a woman to wear a burqa?
Do you deny that it is reasonable to take the steps necessary to stop men from forcing their wives to wear burqas?
The fact is that the banning of the offensive and abusive burqa is better than the alternative, which would be to let the problem fester.

Just because an extremely tiny percentage of women might want to wear a burqa, doesn't mean it should be allowed because the majority see it as offensive, and far too prone for abuse.

Just as the vast majority of people do not want others walking around naked for the very same reasons.

There are legitimate reasons for the creation of governments and laws.

reply to post by IronArm


Yeah here is the thing, Proto doesn't subscribe to the if you don't like the country leave theory, since Proto doesn't abandon his own natural rights as a human being to be Proto.

You can actually try to stop Proto from being Proto, and will likely fail as the Government here in the United States has routinely done, and a few select other organizations, but Proto does what Proto wants, where Proto wants, and how Proto wants and accepts that there may be some reprisals for that.

Still doesn't though mean you aren't simply trying to impose your will on women by preventing them from making their own choices by creating and then hiding behind laws to do that.

Still doesn't make you not exactly like the men they already have in their life.

Sorry you don't get that you only support the freedom to be like you want people to be.

Proto supports the freedom for anyone to be what they want to be as long as they aren't hurting anyone in that endeavor.

I can't for the life of me imagine how an Iron Man is hurt by women you don't even know wearing a burka.

Must be some pretty britlle iron.

reply to post by poet1b


Sure you understand that the majority of Muslim Women don't want to wear burkas because you spent billions on a census to count them all and then billions more to conduct a vote, making sure all of them did based on your census data!

You meant to post it as a source, but figured your PERSONAL OPINION would serve just as well.

It doesn't.

It's still you hiding behind the fact that you can't man up and just say you don't like women wearing burkas and it's your personal preference.

Coward.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by 23432

 

Liberation of women via regulating what she willingly chooses to wear ?

Yeah, your argument is like Proto's. She wants me to slap her around. Ignore those pleas for mercy, it is just kinky sex.

There is no accounting for taste .
You may not believe it but there are women out there who actually see the burqa as a liberation from male oppression .
I know that you can not get your head around this little fact . Unfortunately the integrity of this issue is to be found with those women who do wear it willingly.
Kinky or not sex is sex and if the adult in question in consenting , what is it to me ? what business I have in poking my nose in ?
When I am in Germany , in public parks sometimes one can see a couple engaged in a sexual act . As soon as one spots this type of activity , one ought to look away and walk away , as to show respect to this couple who are coupling in a very public place .
When I see a burqa wearing women , I assume they want no attention from a male and I respect their opinion .
You will assume that they have some sinister motive or they have been brainwashed or oppressed .
Really , have you ever met a burqa wearing woman and talked to them as to why they choose to wear it ?

While I grant you the fact that there a muslim men out there who do force their womenfolk to wear burqa . But these men and these women are a tiny minority in Islam and most muslim men and women do not act this way .
You fail to grant me the fact that there are free willing women out there who wear burqa out of their choice .

As long as you deny these women their right to choose , you also become the oppressor like those muslim men you so seem to despise .

We live in democratic style governments, so we follow the will of the people, and a majority of them, a majority of women, and even a majority of Muslim, women do not want the burqas to be worn in public, because it is viewed as abusive, and a tool for controlling women, and isolating them from public so that their men are free to abuse them.

edit on 14-4-2011 by poet1b because: change you to your

Most muslim women do not wear burqa in France and this law in reality will only effect few hundred women and & men .

A principle is at stake here and if you think the principle of liberty , justice , freedom for all can be violated to exclude those willing muslim women , well , you are misguided imho .

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by IronArm

 

Yeah here is the thing, Proto doesn't subscribe to the if you don't like the country leave theory, since Proto doesn't abandon his own natural rights as a human being to be Proto.

You can actually try to stop Proto from being Proto, and will likely fail as the Government here in the United States has routinely done, and a few select other organizations, but Proto does what Proto wants, where Proto wants, and how Proto wants and accepts that there may be some reprisals for that.

Still doesn't though mean you aren't simply trying to impose your will on women by preventing them from making their own choices by creating and then hiding behind laws to do that.

Still doesn't make you not exactly like the men they already have in their life.

Sorry you don't get that you only support the freedom to be like you want people to be.

Proto supports the freedom for anyone to be what they want to be as long as they aren't hurting anyone in that endeavor.

I can't for the life of me imagine how an Iron Man is hurt by women you don't even know wearing a burka.

Must be some pretty britlle iron.

I like beating the crap out of scrawny losers who act tough at random. But the go'vt holds me back from that right? Laws for peoples wellbeing and safety? The whole point of this law is to be able to identify people. Its akward walking into a convinince store where everyone is wearing bellaclavas right? Same for the tents. Its so people feel at ease walking down the damn street, and no one getting special privilages just because they came from another friggin country.

Originally posted by IronArm


That aside, these women aren't nessisarily thinking "I'm a liberated tent wearer!". maybe they do like it. If they do, well and dandy, but that doesn't fit into the French culture, so they can continue that lifestyle in the land or thier origin.

What happens to an Iranian or Saudi woman who fly into Paris ?

Before you answer me , let me give you some idea about oppressed women in Islam .

Flights from Iran take off towards west and as soon as the Iranian air space is cleared , all women head for the toilets on the plane . They go in wearing burqa , they come out wearing mini skirts and make up like a barbie doll on their faces .

Whether Saudi women do this or not , I do not know but if they did , it wouldn't surprise me .

These women are oppressed and I have been saying so as far back as 1972 .

Now , what happens to our passenger when she lands in Paris ?

If she hasn't changed on the plane , do you think she would change willingly at the immigration ?

Should we even make this thing a law related issue ?

How would you feel one day you end up in a country and they tell you trousers are banned and you must wear kilts at all times .

Iamric, the burqa is not only in Afghanistan, the women of Saudi Arabia cannot go out without being covered.

Are the women who supposedly wear the burqa voluntarily, brain washed from an early age?

Islamic schools have introduced uniform policies which force girls to wear the burka or a full headscarf and veil known as the niqab. Islamic schools have introduced uniform policies which force girls to wear the burka or a full headscarf and veil known as the niqab.

Moderate followers of Islam said yesterday that enforcement of the veil was a "dangerous precedent" and that children attending such schools were being "brainwashed".

Telegraph link

Google Muslims schools UK, look at the uniform requirements of young girls.

There are thousands of women in Muslim countries who are fighting for freedom from the burqa, some who make a protest, show their faces ,are beaten or imprisoned.
Surely we have to show solidarity with them, rather than the few who cover up here in the West.

I grew up in the East End of London, even back in the 60's it was a truly multi cultural area, with many Muslims, I never once saw a burqa, now their are more of them to be seen on London streets than in Beruit.

Why? is it a political statement,? I don't have the answer.

Men and women are equal, a man has no right to dictate what she be it his wife, girlfriend, daughter wears, anyone saying different is turning the clock back.

reply to post by 23432


I am fully aware that there are women who choose to wear the burqa. They might think they are being liberated from male oppression, but that, in my opinion, is because they have been programmed to think that way.

Whether or not you can wrap your head around the reality of the matter, the fact is that it is not natural to walk around completely covered from head to toe. It is more natural to walk around naked.

If we can't ban the burqa, then we shouldn't be able to ban the right of people to walk around naked.

That ought to sit well the man whose burqa attired wife is approached by a naked man with his johnson swinging, who reaches around her for a loaf of bread at the market. Now that is a kinky image. That would make a great Utube video.

Are you all on board with the right of people to walk around naked, just as you are so much in favor of the burqa?

If you can't agree to the right of people to walk around naked, then your whole argument in support of the burqa is pure nonsense, and completely hypocritical.

While you can post what ever you want here on the thread, in your head, you will have to face the truth.

reply to post by PurpleDog UK


i love the French lol wish we were more like them sometimes..they wont speak English to you even when they can..i hated that until i realized they were helping me/forcing me to learn the language and now for that i am very grateful

reply to post by poet1b


I am all on board with the right for people to walk around naked.

As the sign reads at the nude beach here at Haulover...

You may encounter nude sunbathers beyond this point
If nudity offends you do not enter

Still I have to say after watching the women naked all day long it's fun to see them in their clothes too.

However you are all over the map here between whether you want to deny women the right to make an choice, or deny their men from enjoying women who enjoy that choice to punish them because they enjoy what you don't.

It seems very petty and judgemental to me and basically just you trying to legislate morality through law to suit your own desires.

Then hiding behind the law saying hey it's not me man, it's the law!

No dude, it's all you.