French ban on Islamic face veil comes into force

reply to post by PurpleDog UK


France complains about Muslim countries enforcing women to cover themselves, and claims it is against freedom, then it does the same thing, forcing women to not cover themselves, that is against freedom also.

The hypocrisy continues.

reply to post by Dock9


Why would Muslims want to raid the grave of the one whom they perceive as a paragon?

Even if Wahhabis were a sect of Islam, they comprise of a few million, whereas Sunni Muslims are the vast majority. Wahhabis hate Sunnis and traditional acts of Islam as your link affirms.

Wahhabis have beliefs which infringe upon the Muslim belief, thus they're not Muslim. Stop spreading ignorance by claiming Wahhabis did such and such, and blaming Islam.

PBS interviewed a guy who went to a Wahhabi school:

Reporter: If you go to school in Saudi Arabia, what do you learn about people who are not followers of Wahhabi, of the prophet?

Man: "The religious curriculum in Saudi Arabia teaches you that people are basically two sides: Salafis [Wahhabis], who are the winners, the chosen ones, who will go to heaven, and the rest. The rest are Muslims and Christians and Jews and others. They are either kafirs, who are deniers of God, or mushrak, putting gods next to God, or enervators, that's the lightest one. The enervators of religion who are they call the Sunni Muslims who ... for instance, celebrate Prophet Mohammed's birthday, and do some stuff that is not accepted by Salafis. And all of these people are not accepted by Salafi as Muslims. As I said, "claimant to Islam." And all of these people are supposed to be hated, to be persecuted, even killed. And we have several clergy -- not one Salafi clergy -- who have said that against the Shi'a and against the other Muslims. And they have done it in Algeria, in Afghanistan. This is the same ideology. They just have the same opportunity. They did it in Algeria and Afghanistan, and now New York. ..."

Reporter: What do you mean, it reached New York?

Man: "Well, when it was a local problem, the American media did not really care much about it. But until September 11, you saw how this faith of hate, I call it, did to all of us, to New Yorkers and to the rest of the world, honestly. ..."

Reporter: But the Saudi government has condemned what happened on September 11....

Man: "... Yes, Prince Nayif condemned bin Laden, and other princes... Prince Turki condemned bin Laden. They did not condemn that message. They condemned bin Laden. ... Bin Laden learned this in Saudi Arabia. He didn't learn it in the moon. That message that Bin Laden received, it still is taught in Saudi Arabia. And if bin Laden dies, and this policy or curriculum stays, we will have other bin Ladens. ..."

PBS interview

.
France feels sorry for muslim females in muslim nations

France is not going to subject those women to the same disgustingly controlling and misogynistic treatment while they're in France

Good for you, France. The world applauds you

Further to the point, the West is offended ---- DEEPLY OFFENDED -- by penniless, unskilled, ignorant, 3rd world interlopers dragging themselves through civilized Western nations with unjustifiable arrogance that can ONLY come from deep ignorance

The West is OFFENDED by the INTOLERANT ignorance of islam and its refusal to accept ANY other religion in its own pathetic lands --- at the SAME TIME as it has the HIDE to demand unlimited tolerance from the host population

Islam is ignorant

And I'm here to Deny Ignorance !

Originally posted by P3ACE0WAR
reply to post by PurpleDog UK

 

France complains about Muslim countries enforcing women to cover themselves, and claims it is against freedom, then it does the same thing, forcing women to not cover themselves, that is against freedom also.

The hypocrisy continues.

Assume you are referring to some sort of French anti-nudity laws?

Another example of "implied equality" where none actually exists.

reply to post by P3ACE0WAR


I understood that they CAN cover themselves - just not their whole face.

Originally posted by P3ACE0WAR
reply to post by PurpleDog UK

 

France complains about Muslim countries enforcing women to cover themselves, and claims it is against freedom, then it does the same thing, forcing women to not cover themselves, that is against freedom also.

The hypocrisy continues.

France is allowing these women to be what they should have always been allowed to be ,HUMAN WOMEN , and not kept dogs.

Bravo France , you lead the way.

.

The Saudis promotion of their vile version of islam

is funded by oil

They produce nothing

If not for oil, they'd still be scooping up camel dung for shekels


.

Another VERY good reason to boycott oil and the gas pumps !


Send them BACK to the Stone Age from which they so recently crawled

Deny them money for oil

and it's back to selling dates for them

Let's be clear, it isn't the French government who are deeming this a religious ordeal: From the provided source of the OP:

Muslims regard as a religious duty.

It is the Muslims ( no surprise there ) that are crying foul? But they need to remember, they are a guest in France. And as a guest, you follow the rules. I for one condone the actions of the French. Its about time ( after generations of wussing out ) that they stood for something positive.

The french are now figuring out that these individuals are incapable of living in a free society, quote below further solidifies my statement:

The French government says the face-covering veil undermines the basic standards required for living in a shared society and also relegates its wearers to an inferior status incompatible with French notions of equality.

Once again, the following quote further suggests that it is the Muslims who are upset, and dont wish to abide by the rules:

The ban on face coverings - which does not explicitly mention Islamic veils, but exempts various other forms - has angered some Muslims and libertarians.

The following quote further suggests that the Muslims do not wish to abide by the rules, and suggest condoning civil disobedience.

A French Muslim property dealer, Rachid Nekkaz, said he was creating a fund to pay women's fines, and encouraged "all free women who so wish to wear the veil in the street and engage in civil disobedience".

Apparently following the rules is not a practice that these radicals wish to embrace! Again, I think France is doing something positive, and taking a stand to the peoples of a religion that have proven the inability to live in a free society, but also part of religion that condones killing and murdering of innocent people.

If only all the other countries of this vast world would follow suit, and put a stop to this veil non-sense.

This sends a message, a big message to the Muslim world, that France is no longer putting up with your shenanigans.




BRAVO France, Bravo!

Originally posted by doobydoll
In my local shopping malls, the wearing of hoods and hoodie garments are banned by the local authorities.

Last year, a friend of a friend witnessed a mall security employee refuse entry to a couple of teenagers wearing hooded sweaters even though they had removed the hoods from over their heads. As the teenagers walked away, a group of around 6 women all wearing full burkhas approached the mall entrance, and the security man opened the door for them and welcomed them in with a smile

When asked why he turned the youngsters away but welcomed the women in burkhas, he replied ' because they are wearing hoodies and the women aren't'.

I agree with you - - its wrong.

I am not against any religion - - - and don't care what they wear.

But I don't accept covering the face in public - - for anyone. I just don't. (exceptions: some medical reasons and outside for weather).

reply to post by centurion1211


When you force someone to either wear, or not wear certain forms of clothings, it is against freedom. That's what I mentioned in my post.

reply to post by PurpleDog UK


I don't have much to say or add to the subject except this: France belongs to te ethnic French, if immigrants cannot accept the laws of that country then they don't need to be immigrating to the country in question. It's honestly as simple as that. You have to embrace your host country, if not you have nothng to do in that country.



P.S.
Sorry for any mistakes in spelling, I'm writing this on a handheld from 2003.

Originally posted by doobydoll
reply to post by P3ACE0WAR

 

I understood that they CAN cover themselves - just not their whole face.

Yes, cover yourself in context of the OP means covering your whole body which some Muslims believe to be pious. This is against freedom.

reply to post by gandalphthegrey


"France is allowing these women to be what they should have always been allowed to be ,HUMAN WOMEN , and not kept dogs.

Bravo France , you lead the way."

I'm talking about freedom which France claims the Muslim world lacks of, I'm not referring to your understanding of what a Human Women should resemble.

reply to post by P3ACE0WAR


No its not against freedom, again as I have said, the immigrants that migrate to France, or any other country, should abide by the rules/laws that are implemented in said country. They are not infringing on a persons religious rights. " Those " people still have the right to believe in their religion, just have to abide by the laws of proper dress codes.

Before this thread esculates into a religous war , let me reiterate what I said earlier .

The enforcement of islamic women wearing Burkas is not an Islamic pratise or law , but is a practise that is upheld by insecure Islamic men .
This practise has nothing to do with any religion .

.

Seems some people aren't reading the posts

or they're conveniently choosing to ignore them

and hoping others will do the same


So let's reiterate

The Saudis are PAYING formerly LIBERAL muslims

to adopt the face hair for men

and the tent for women


They are paying them what amounts to a fortune in their economies

Now WHY would the Saudis spend money this way ?

Answer: Because a clean shaven muslim male and a normally dressed muslim female

would pass without notice in the lands of their Western hosts

.

Clearly, the Saudis do NOT want muslims to integrate

Clearly, the Saudis DO wish muslim migrants to stand out and not blend in

Clearly, the Saudis are using HUMAN BEINGS in the same way Nike uses a logo on it's product

It's ADVERTISING

ADVERTISING

.

But it's MORE than just advertising

The beards and tent garments are being used BY the Saudis as SYMBOLS

SYMBOLS to let the Western host populations KNOW ' There be many, many muslims all around you '

.

The Saudis also wish the host populations to become unsettled

to feel threatened

Yes, the Saudis have paid Western psychologists for information

and they've learned what happens with wildebeastes at the watering hole when the elephants and lions join them

UNEASE

NERVOUSNESS

ANXIETY

THAT is how the Saudis are softening up the Western host populations

And it's WORKING as we know

.

Then there's the OTHER arm of the Saudi onslaught

the MOSQUES and the MINARETS and the CALLS TO PRAYER

which the host populations hear frequently



So the Western host populations are forced to SEE and HEAR and FEEL the muslim invaders

(and of course there are the rapes, the car burnings, the riots and all the other joys of being forced to accomodate wild people with no respect for those around them)

.

Now France has said, ' Off with the face veils or begone ! '

.

I LOVE it

Now we should return the favour

and go en masse to Saudi muslim lands

with OUR ---- OUR culture

OUR CULTURE !

IN THEIR FACES !

and let's see how they deal with it

let's see who wins the tolerance game

They'd fold in five minutes !

Now get those stupid veils off and behave yourselves or get OUT !

Originally posted by Whereweheaded
reply to post by P3ACE0WAR

 

No its not against freedom, again as I have said, the immigrants that migrate to France, or any other country, should abide by the rules/laws that are implemented in said country. They are not infringing on a persons religious rights. " Those " people still have the right to believe in their religion, just have to abide by the laws of proper dress codes.

If you noticed I didn't mention the fact that Muslims should abide by those laws, I mentioned freedom which France claims the Muslim world lacks of.

This is against freedom, just because it is a law/rule, doesn't mean it isn't against freedom. Just because it is a law to spy on any American without warrant, doesn't mean it isn't against freedom and privacy.

By the way, these are not immigrants we are talking about, these are French citizens.

"They are not infringing on a persons religious rights."

Yes it does infringe not just on a person's freedom but also religious rights, I agree that these women can still believe in their religion, but they can't worship and practice their religion (as they perceive it). They have lost that freedom.

non the less, the above is not what I'm saying, I'm just mentioning the hypocrisy, that France complains about the lack of freedom in Muslim world (due to dress code), then they turn around and do the same thing, banning certain clothings.

Originally posted by P3ACE0WAR
reply to post by gandalphthegrey

 

"France is allowing these women to be what they should have always been allowed to be ,HUMAN WOMEN , and not kept dogs.

Bravo France , you lead the way."

I'm talking about freedom which France claims the Muslim world lacks of, I'm not referring to your understanding of what a Human Women should resemble.

As I said earlier , "when in Rome , do as the Romans do " . Islams all over the world show no respect for the views of their adoptive countries , and are all too willing to cry racial predjudism when forced to conform .

This thread has nothing to do with religion , but with the rights of women who are subjugated by insecure little men

Originally posted by centurion1211
And to complete your false "analogy", it wasn't a regular practice - or condoned by the church and state - to kill the women "guilty" of such "crimes" in the U.S.

Stop trying to compare what western civilization did 100 or 1,000 years ago with what muslims do today.

So we should discuss degrees of women suppression? Whatever - spoken like a man.

Culture is the hardest thing in the world to change. It is unlikely many Islam women believe they are suppressed.

There are plenty of Christian women who believe they are to be subservient to their husbands. That is a religious/culture too. And I'm sure some of them are physically abused also.

Women and only women can take charge of their rights. They have to join forces and put their lives and their children's lives on the line for equality. First they have to believe they deserve and want equality. Many don't.

No one is going to do it for them.

All of your assumptions are entirely unfounded and completely false. I AM a feminist. I AM a woman. I absolutely am educated on the Islamic culture. This law does NOTHING to address the actual oppression of women. Disallowing women to wear a face veil does NOTHING to address the real issue. It only appeases the racist, closed-minded, Muslim-haters.

No actually it sends a message out, to let the world know that the old culture wants to stay as it is. Regarding your aversion (and mine) to oppression, then why don't you highlight it. Just as the OP highlighted this issue on this thread. You've seen how reactive the dialogue has been here already, imagine if you showed the world some of the things that annoy you? You might get a similar response.

Oh and I don't hate muslims, but I love France. I just don't want to see it swept away into duality, and what better way of fixing this situation than keep France as France, keep the French happy and stick to French culture. It really isn't a hard concept to grasp. There's no need for hatred. And ultimately in reality what do YOU think would develop more hatred? Allowing a tiny percentage of a more hard-lined culture to dominate, or allowing the people of France to not feel alienated or threatened. Man or Woman.

If a law actually addressed these women's equal rights and punished those who oppress them, I would think further about it, but it does not. This law is NOT for the woman, but for the Muslim-haters.

And how do you reason this? Because i've read a lot about these issues, both in media and modern literature.

www.nytimes.com...
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NEW YORK: I am a Muslim, I am a feminist and I detest the full-body veil, known as a niqab or burqa. It erases women from society and has nothing to do with Islam but everything to do with the hatred for women at the heart of the extremist ideology that preaches it.

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It is true that my values on this issue comes from the US Constitution. But France also has freedom of religion and human rights.

This isn't a religious issue, and the French population also fall under such human rights.