Israeli schoolbus hit with anti-tank weapon fired from Gaza, critically wounding teen

Originally posted by bigyin
reply to post by jackflap

 

Not had time to read full thread but can I ask, do school children in Isreal take stuffed toys with them to school ?

Only ask because where I live they do not. Perhaps the toys were the drivers, I mean sometimes buses do carry such things sitting in the front window area although it would be a bit unusual.

Mossad does steal stuffed toys for propaganda when they steal foreigners passports. They do this when Israel wants to murder someone and Israel needs a scape goat, or bomb plot on a school bus, Like An israel 9/11

reply to post by jackflap


I think one of the other suspect things involved with the contention that it was a laser guided anti-tank weapon is that the laser targeting system is quite large and typically has to be no more than 5500 meters of the target.

It takes three people to operate the system.

So if this is true, sattelite imaging should have picked up the targeting vehicle from the air, and a three man team with a large laser guidance system and bulky missile would have had to 'infiltrate' well into Israeli Occupied Territory without detection in order to get close enough to the school bus to carry out the attack, and then get back out of Israeli Occupied Territory with the bulky targeting system.

Seems like a pretty daunting task considering the overlapping multiple layers of security Israel deploys to prohibit such things from happening.

Originally posted by FarArcher
reply to post by jackflap

 

I never fired an anti-tank weapon at a school bus, never had reason to, and even if given a reason, would refuse. I only had three rules: we don't intentionally hurt children as they can't pick their parents - much less their parents politics, we don't rape any women - kill them if you want and you'll have to live with it - but you damn certain won't rape them, and never, ever, let me catch you sleeping on guard duty, or I'll cut your throat myself. You will not endanger me and everyone else but once, and there will be no discussion.

I admit, that's not much for rules, but those are the important ones.

If your question was to ask what a bus hit by an anti-tank round should look like - it depends on the anti-tank weapon.

The most effective anti-tank weapon is a sabot fired from a high velocity, large bore gun. It's basically just a rod penetrator, and while it melts steel as it punches through, igniting things inside, if used against a bus, it would just leave a small hole entering and a small hole leaving.

If you're talking about a shaped charge, then again, the hole is small as the explosives are formed to concentrate their explosive force into a very small area, thus enabling it to punch through multiple inches of armor. Since a school bus is a tin can on a chassis, there's not much to punch through and concentrate, so most of the explosive would dissipate rather quickly.

Folks here seem to equate anti-vehicle mine damage with anti-tank weapon damage, and expect to see massive deconstruction of the bus.

Not even close as they work on different principles, and include a significantly greater mass of explosive.

Crap FarArcher With every post you have sent, you WOULD fire on a bus if you thought it necessary. You have all your post to prove your intentions
And the sad thing is you WOULD fire on a Palestinian bus given half a chance.
You have shown and said what you would do, so YOU ARE SADISTIC.



PS Archer. I have a few mates that are AUSSIE SAS and 3RAR and they do tell me stories about people like you.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Now let me share with you a lesson on land acquisition.

One nation attacks another, and gets their asses kicked, they lose territory.

Always was, always will be.

End of lesson.

reply to post by meathed

Exactly where did I say I would fire on a Palestinian bus?

Quote it, liar.

You know some SAS? Really?

I'd run into several SAS from two nations daily on Smoke Bomb Hill, and even some SBS from one of the two - you know, at the JFK center. At any given moment, we'd see Indian operatves, Germans, Belgians, Norwegians, South Africans, former Rhodesian SAS and Selous scouts, ROKs, and any number of foreign special operations personnel.

So . . . they told you stories?

Like momma used to do when you were little and still wore a nappy?

Yeah. It's fun to scare little kids with stories.

Told right, the Three Bears can make them cry.

Originally posted by FarArcher
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Now let me share with you a lesson on land acquisition.

One nation attacks another, and gets their asses kicked, they lose territory.

Always was, always will be.

End of lesson.

While armies are manuevering this is sometimes true however very often the nation that lost ends up retaining it's borders.

When it happens between sovereign states and colonial possessions change hands so does cash too or like consideration at the Treaty Table.

Any study of actual treaties ending wars will display that time and time again.

When you don't pay for the land you acquired through war it tends to result in the rightful owners lobbing rockets etc on you.

When you are a nation like Israel then you cry like a girl when that happens.

End of lesson.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

This foolishness of going to war and not gaining any territory is a very recent phenomena.

But when Israel was attacked by Syria, Jordan, and Egypt in 1967, and then commenced an old-fashioned country ass-whipping, they took territory.

The Syrians lost land, the Jordanians lost land, and the Egyptians lost land.

Too bad.

So sad.

Cry me a river.

Originally posted by FarArcher
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

This foolishness of going to war and not gaining any territory is a very recent phenomena.

But when Israel was attacked by Syria, Jordan, and Egypt in 1967, and then commenced an old-fashioned country ass-whipping, they took territory.

The Syrians lost land, the Jordanians lost land, and the Egyptians lost land.

Too bad.

So sad.

Cry me a river.

War is a business and the truth is it hasn't superceded a contract for a very long time.

Take Cuba and Iran for example, kick out the foreign corporations and cancel your contracts after a revolution and you are immediately embargoed and boycotted by a group of nations those corporations hold sway in.

Once the Romanization phase of displacing first world people was complete, those who came out on top became contractual owners recognized by international groups of bankers, corporations, royals and the vatican.

Take something that belongs to them, or harm one of their corporate entities business in your war or revolution and don't pay them that's where the real war begins.

Battlefield gains are really just a bargaining position, then the real warriors go to work, the bankers and lawyers on behalf of the sovereign powers.

War is after all just the continuation of politics by other means.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Battlefield gains are really just a bargaining position, then the real warriors go to work, the bankers and lawyers on behalf of the sovereign powers.

This is a hard lesson from life that I am currently learning.

Glad to see you taking on the IDF Proto. It is really disturbing the degree to which these threads become infiltrated by Israeli disinfo/misinfo agents.

Keep up the good fight Proto, Meathead and Jackflap.

Originally posted by FarArcher
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Now let me share with you a lesson on land acquisition.

One nation attacks another, and gets their asses kicked, they lose territory.

Always was, always will be.

End of lesson.

Are you actually serious?

I am never ceased to be amazed at the audacity of those who support Israeli propaganda.
You guys really want to have it both ways.

On one hand you want the world to feel sorry for the Jews who died in WWII.
(TBH.... war should make anyone feel horrible, because war is horrible)

But then when Israel commits mass genocide against the Palestinians, then that is just "a lesson".
Disgusting.

Such hypocrisy is absolutely disgusting.

reply to post by Josephus23


Hey Joe what's interesting is early on in this thread we managed to get to the heart of what little information there was from Hamas from a one paragraph statement on their web site.

On another more recent related thread in breaking news one poster displayed more or less how 10 different major publications both Western and Muslim each presented that one paragraph differently, up to and including in one case quotations around a sentence Hamas didn't even release in the source statement.

Talk about being ruled by confusion.

What the media doesn't distort or ommit through sloppy journalism then yes sadly a volunteer blogger force operated by Israel's supporters the Isreali Internet Defense League comes along and often distorts and confuses things even further.

Divide and conquer has never been so alive and well as it is today in the 21st Century.

Getting to the truth of things has become almost impossible and sadly most people aren't interested in it, just how events can be manipulated, how their agendas can be furthered, and how they can manipulate an illusion of being correct.

Life sure is a funny old dog.

reply to post by Josephus23

Do quote me where I said anything about the Jews and WWII.

I dare you.

It's retarded garbage thrown in and attributed to a poster they never said - but you and others want it to look like I said it - that is the real problem here.

You hate Jews. You hate Israel.

I get it.

While you want to bitch and moan about everything under the sun over Israel, I merely was addressing this strictly from a viewpoint of proven principles of warfare.

Yeah. Rome. I know, I know, they have everyone's entire lives planned and choreographed from now until they pull my plug.

Rome myachingass.

I know, I know, Rome - this nebulous, nefarious, mystical power from on high even has my evening meals planned.

BS.

Got to stay out of the mushrooms . . .

reply to post by FarArcher


I wouldn't discount Rome my friend since it's at the very heart of the religious constructs that frame and create the base controversy and importance of the Israeli Nation.

Your life as a professional soldier, is in the service of a nation, decreed into existence by a prince of the Holy Roman Empire, still paying off pre-revolutionary war debts to sovereign entities who got their sovereignty from Rome.

In fact when the Pope travels he is escorted by two US Military F-16's and when in the United States is routinely transported by Marine 1, a fleet of helicopters and specially trained pilots who serve the President picking him up and dropping him off on the White House Lawn.

The Vatican with 1.2 billion catholics spread in literally every nation throughout the world is considered by many nations and intelligence agencies to have in fact the best intelligence network in the world.

As the largest private land owner on earth it also owns more of the earth than any nation or individual.

With a treasure trove of documents storred in it's off limit Library dating back to pre-Roman times, it's also the number one keeper of secrets.

So secretive in fact that upon a Pope's death by law his papers are sealed for 75 years preventing everyone including the very small group of vatican approved scholars who get limited access to the archives from seeing them for that length of time.

Discount Rome at your own expense, but that's who your buddies are fighting and dieing for.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Proto, I do really appreciate that post.

But you don't get it.

I don't give a damn about Rome.

I fought those who fought me.

I fought for the men on my left and right.

And that's good enough.

Israel is doing the same. Quite successfully, I might add.

reply to post by FarArcher

You hate Jews. You hate Israel.

Wrong and wrong.

I don't hate anyone. I dislike the policies of Israel.

I actually tend to get along with Jews really well.
That is the interesting part of the internet.
We can create avatars and become anything we wish, and in the end, we are simply judged by our avatar.

It's like having dual personalities.

With that being said...
The Jews that I get along with are actually true practicing Jews who stay beholden to their actual teachings.

I do not get along with anyone who espouses imperialist dreams of conquering any people.
Be they Iraqui, Libyan, Palestinian, American, Korean, Israeli, Russian or the such...
(the Japanese and Chinese seem to have their hands full at the present time with their own countries)

I no longer criticize anyone in particular when recognizing WWII and the Jews.
I was not speaking of you in particular when I referenced WWII, but those who support Israeli propaganda.
I was speaking of a group and not an individual.

reply to post by FarArcher


You know the sad truth is that winning a war is mere child's play compared to winning the peace.

That is something very hard to achieve.

Very often the inability of governments to win the peace, that is to say create a stable prosperous society where jobs and economic opportunities are plentiful and the standard of living high is no where near as easy as shooting and killing your opponents.

So for a very long time, people like you are in fact tasked to go out and fight and die with and for your buddies to mask the inability of a nation to win the peace, to create prosperity who instead needs to band it together not through common success of the people, but a common enemy created for the people.

Are such men who are manipulated to that end often personally brave and consider what they do to be a noble thing?

Sure and sure.

Are they still not being manipulated in a process that rarely if never serves them and rarely ever wins the peace?

That's the question you might want to ask yourself.

I don't wish to demean any of the concepts you posted in any manner, and forgive me in advance if somehow I inadvertently do so, but some folks get really, really bored in a state of Nirvana.

Some states think they are enjoying peace because no one on their side is either shooting or getting shot.

Here's the way I see it. Peace, or a state of peace is a brief interlude between wars and conflicts. Men have always fought. Wars, or if no convenient enemies were to be found, each other.

So a nation can hope that they'll get through one generation or so without a war, and they really think they've accomplished something.

That other nation fought in a war or conflict, and they have lots and lots of combat experienced soldiers or ex-soldiers. Not only that, they were able to work on their art of war - leadership, communications, logistics, weapons platforms, weapons, tactics, and strategical planning.

So when these two nations fight each other down the road, the side that enjoyed that generation or so of peace is now losing all that generation in the slaughter.

Some peace.

No, Proto, I don't believe in the goodwill of men, I don't believe in peace as that is just a temporary status, I don't believe in the internal rot that a nation at peace suffers, and I don't believe that cutting edge warfare capabilities are obtained through peaceful initiatives.

Our turn is coming - everyone's turn is coming. I just happen to know that I'm much better off than the vast majority of my fellow Americans.

Dying is easy, so you don't have to put forth much effort to accomplish that.

Right now the US is way ahead of any other nation in terms of honing their warmaking skills. Many different theaters, many different methods of fighting, many different terrains, many different mindsets.

To live in RELATIVE peace - has a price. That price WILL be paid. Up front, as you go, or on the tail end.

But it will be paid in full.

We're paying as we go along.

Others are waiting for the tail end. And I don't envy them at all.

reply to post by FarArcher


I think you have in fact bolstered my argument considerably in regards to how difficult it is to win the peace, because as you say war of 'survival' becomes the mother of invention.

This is not entirely true lots of great inventions have been achieved by peacetime societies but it is largely true as most of our modern day inventions including the Internet developed as an alternative means of communication in case of a nuclear attack for the department of defense, are in fact made for military applications.

However this inability to 'inspire' masses to be productive and inventive during peace time very much falls on governments and the truth is that such things as Wars to End All Wars or Mutually Assured Destruction as a Deterent to War simply never work, so some might question the War Time and Peace Time Benefit to such thinking.

What we have in fact done is to reward a government incapable of inspiring the people to productivity and prosperity with a weaponized system to protect itself that is far superior to it's own citizens muskets to tear it down if need be.

So there is a real danger in attempting to justify that once again Leaders who manage to inspire in times of crisis, crisis often created through conflicts that need never have occured with more honest and wise leadership really do serve us well by conspiring to create the conflicts that lead to the innovations of the military industrial complex that are later then applied to both making life more convenient to the populace while at the same time enslaving it and making it dependent upon that very technology and the corporations that create it.

For the truth is that they simply are failing to inspire the populace in times of peace through a lack of leadership and vision, and they truly are failing to create the kind of diplomacy that both partners with and aides and recieves from our fellow nations to make the world a better place through peaceful means.

That's nothing to brag about that violence becomes the catalyst.

That's something to consider as a failure as I certainly would.

A failure of leadership on all levels to be effective.

Trial by fire, evolution through conflict, are easy arguments to make an excuse for the continuation of even the glorification of that often snuffs out young lives that might have in a more peaceful world developed the cure for cancer, the engine that takes us out to the stars, or the dryer that doesn't eat socks!

We will never know what the dead might have accomplished through peace, since after all we killed them as part of this thinking.

Most of our modern day conflicts are manipulated by the bankers and corporations and most of them are decided by the bankers and corporations.

Culling the population and establishing power through fear shouldn't be confused with something progressive it's not.

Our scarcity paradigm where by formula both individuals and nations are going to be denied plentiful resources to make the world an unstable place where violence is going to remain the only option in some cases is a manipulation that often does lead to violence and wars that might otherwise never have happened on an earth where the bounty of it is fairly shared, and rightly appreciated.

Could I have lived without the Internet or waited another hundred years because a peaceful people had no need to create an alternative communication systems in case of nuclear war, but were too busy enjoying sunsets and meals and laughter and song?

Yeah I think I could have.

How about you?

One may suggest that those who died in war may have changed the world. Possibly, but that's a non-issue.

Some may suggest that resources that are devoted to weapons research and platforms would better benefit their population if turned toward pure scientific research.

Not true.

The greatest catalyst for scientific, cultural, economic, financial, and industrial growth and development happens to be the implements of war.

I have not the energy to list the hundreds of spin-off technologies as a direct result of the German V-2 rocket.

Nor the leaps forward in medicine that are entirely due to war and war casualties. Just about every medical advancement this side of using leeches for "bleeding" a patient are due to wartime lessons and advancements, including the most familiar - triage.

I cannot list the advancements and discoveries in electronics and digital technologies that exist because of wartime advances - often initially for communication, logistics, or guidance systems. The spillover is in every device in your home.

So we'll agree to disagree there a bit, but necessity is the mother of invention. And nothing is more necessary than wartime needs.

reply to post by FarArcher


It truly seems that way, but the truth is are we happier as individuals than we would have been if left in a tribal situation living in harmony with nature, instead of nations that stamped it out that try to Master nature instead, only to find Radiation spewing in a near impossible to stop process by an invention basically just designed to replace the good old fire, when nature decides to wipe out that invention with a 48 foot tidal wave?

As you can see the world of what if's becomes intriquing as you muse what might have become of those soldiers who died in wars.

Speaking of those wonderful rockets that Hitler developed, and there many wonderful off shoots?

What was this thread about again?

Oh yeah a missile hitting a school bus!

That's real progress. So the very thing that people are decrying and lamenting in this thread, is actually a byproduct of the very invention you are alternately praising.

We are simply conditioned to rely on failed concepts from the past in a revolving process that keeps us at a perpetual state of war that ultimately serves the ambitions of a very small group of people, who as you point out manage to use that technoloigy later much to their profit and advantage too.

Whether they kill you with it, or enslave you with it, many would argue that it's time for a more progressive approach to life.