Lost Cities and the states of Atlantis

Hi All,

Just giving an update.

Firstly, a few people have implied my initial post is invalid because Plato mentioned 10 Kingdoms/Regions. Thought I'd just re-iterate that I mentioned:

3 x Ancient cities (that are "offshore" cities):

Nimrol (a buried city in Egypt)
Ochunini (another buried city in Egypt)
Tridoia

7 x States (that contains 7 cities but are on the same piece of land/island/continent):

Artelmis
Trigas (also known as Poseidon)
Labruula
Apotemics
Nochs
Talenos (later called Astroeth)
Antipolinos

= 10 cities/kingdoms/regions.

IndianaJoe:

You stated that Plato said:


Plato states that Orichalch was the principal source of Atlantis wealth. He also states that it was mined not in the home city of Atlantis but rather overseas.

To look at a possible tangent for this thread, let's assume that Ochunini - one of the "overseas" cities of Atlantis that I mentioned above, is in actual fact Orichalch.

Can anyone make any links with past texts/scrolls that could possibly support this?

lostinspace:

You mentioned that Plato talked about a meeting...here's an extract:


"And when they (the 10 kings) were gathered together they consulted about their common interests, and enquired if any one had transgressed in anything and passed judgement and before they passed judgement they gave their pledges to one another on this wise:-There were bulls who had the range of the temple of Poseidon; and the ten kings, being left alone in the temple, after they had offered prayers to the god that they might capture the victim which was acceptable to him, hunted the bulls, without weapons but with staves and nooses; and the bull which they caught they led up to the pillar and cut its throat over the top of it so that the blood fell upon the sacred inscription."


Now, I'm wondering if the "Temple of Poseidon" is also the "Temple of Trigas"...as I have mentioned above because Trigas was also known as Poseidon.

Is this another "link" we can make?

Also, I have been notified that those Spanish texts I posted earlier on have been translated (one at least anyways). Here is the URL:

www.sergeraynauddelaferriere.net...

It has some interesting things:

Apparently, the "Allegory of Plato" confirms information regarding Atlantis as mentioned in the "Manuscript of Chichicastenango". Both these men were on the opposite side of the Atlantic Ocean and both spoke of similarities regarding Atlantis

Some information extracted from the link above:

1) The "tenth king" of Atlantis was "Autochthon"
2) An ancient Egyption text called the "Phah-Hotep" describes the true fate of Atlantis

Does this help?

Cheers

JS

[edit on 19-6-2006 by jumpspace]

[edit on 19-6-2006 by jumpspace]

[edit on 19-6-2006 by jumpspace]

Originally posted by michaelanteski
I would submit the following theory: We cannot say for sure if the Athenians of Atlantis' time as given by Plato were not advanced, because if a subsequent tremendous Deluge (which Plato only hints at at the very end of his "Timias and Critias") ensued upon the war between the Athenian-led alliance and the Atlanteans...
...Then all we'd know about would be the Athens and Mediterraneans who lived later on.

Two things,
One, this deluge is precisely the reason that Solon knew nothing of Atlantis, or so said the Priest of Sais. So I'd not say it was "only hinted at."

Two, this priest also claimed that such deluges (and other natural disasters) do not effect Egypt because they are somehow protected (he says that in Egypt, water comes up from below, while everywhere else it falls down from above. Obviously he's talking about the Nile Flood. But he claims that Egypt is somehow protected from things out of the sky (fire, etc.) by the Nile itself!)

Plato said the story originally came from this Egyptian priest, through Solon. The priest claimed his city was only a thousand years younger than the Athens of Old, and that Egyptians had witnessed and recorded the passing of the Atlantean Empire. So it's not true that "all we'd know about would be the Athens and Mediterraneans who lived later on." We know plenty of Egypt, and it was claimed that Egypt was around back then and survived every deluge.

Harte

Ummm...I don't think anyone picked up on this:

Artelmis
Trigas (also known as Poseidon)
Labruula
Apotemics
Nochs
Talenos (later called Astroeth)
Antipolinos

I also just came across additional info that I missed last time:

One of the rulers of Artelmis was Tili.

Cheers

JS

I also have some additional information:

1) Astra VII once was a king/ruler of Talenos
2) Astra had a son Potemes
3) Potemes had two sons: Tari I and Talento
4) Talento had two sons: Santenis (or Santemis) and Talento
5) Potemes also had a brother named Dartah
6) Tili (ruler/king of Artelmis) was somewhat of a scientist
7) Kyafus was the Great Priest of Nimrol

Does anyone know of ancient kings/rulers/priests who correspond to any of these names?

Cheers

JS

Originally posted by jumpspace
Nimrol (a buried city in Egypt)
Ochunini (another buried city in Egypt)
Tridoia
Artelmis
Trigas (also known as Poseidon)
Labruula
Apotemics
Nochs
Talenos (later called Astroeth)
Antipolinos

I'll repeat the question that others have asked: Where did these names come from? Plato certainly doesn't mention them.

To look at a possible tangent for this thread, let's assume that Ochunini - one of the "overseas" cities of Atlantis that I mentioned above, is in actual fact Orichalch.

Can anyone make any links with past texts/scrolls that could possibly support this?

Orichalach was a material (metal) of some sort. It's not a metal actually known to the Greeks and they had none of it (because we do have documentation from them and we know what they called various gems, minerals, and metals.) It appears to be a made-up metal (made up by Socrates/Plato.)

There are known trade centers around the world (including paleolithic ones from 10,000 BC and earlier and none of them matches what you're trying to connect.

Apparently, the "Allegory of Plato" confirms information regarding Atlantis as mentioned in the "Manuscript of Chichicastenango". Both these men were on the opposite side of the Atlantic Ocean and both spoke of similarities regarding Atlantis

That would make the "allegory of Plato" something that was modern and not ancient. And the manuscript is the Popol Vuh... I have a copy, and the idea that it connects/mentions Atlantis is pretty clearly a fantasy.

I can pick out a few lines in any recent George Bush speech and announce that George is tying America in with Atlantis and is revealing secret knowledge that America is Atlantis. That would be a VERY stupid theory -- but that's the kind of scholarship they're pushing on you when hey say there's a connection.

1) The "tenth king" of Atlantis was "Autochthon"
2) An ancient Egyption text called the "Phah-Hotep" describes the true fate of Atlantis
Does this help?

It helps establish that link as an unreliable source.

Ptah-hotep is indeed very famous and very well known. It's a manual of advice (kind of like a Miss Manners for rulers and leaders.) Here's a link to it where you can see exactly what the manuscript says:
www.fordham.edu...

Here's the original hieroglyphics and transliterated and translated texts:
members.aol.com...

[edit on 21-6-2006 by Byrd]

Originally posted by jumpspace
I also have some additional information:

1) Astra VII once was a king/ruler of Talenos
2) Astra had a son Potemes
3) Potemes had two sons: Tari I and Talento
4) Talento had two sons: Santenis (or Santemis) and Talento
5) Potemes also had a brother named Dartah
6) Tili (ruler/king of Artelmis) was somewhat of a scientist
7) Kyafus was the Great Priest of Nimrol

Does anyone know of ancient kings/rulers/priests who correspond to any of these names?

Again, more evidence that this particular source is unreliable.

Astra is a female name and it's Greek.
Potemes is a pretend Egyptian name (it's actually Greek. Sort of.)
Talento, Santenis are Spanish in derivation. The gods know what Kyafus is supposed to be... ditto Tari and Tili.

So we have a real linguistic mishmash of names. That would be like King Henry I of England naming his sons Shemp, Godzilla, Ivan, and Anubis -- and Anubis naming his sons Tlaloc and Yugioh.

Compare that to real Kings Lists -- Sumerian fathers give their Sumerian sons names that are Sumerian. Egyptian fathers gave their Egyptian children names that were Egyptian. Greek fathers gave their children Greek names. Names generally repeated (sons who succeeded fathers had their father's name or incorporated it in one of their names.)

You see name changes when you see dynastic changes in any real list of kings... but here we have kings who have a name from one culture and are naming their children names from another culture. So the list they present is very unreliable and they either made the information up or didn't bother to be very picky about their sources (and got it from another place that's just making this stuff up.

the names are indicators of cross cultural pollination, intercultural dynastic relations, or
to use a modern term regressed memories?

What If we have been conditioned to in fact look the wrong way? we are looking east
when we should be looking WEST, Far west.

I thought I'd give everyone an update...

This is embarassing but it goes against my grain to not say it.

I've had a "go-over" of my source based on Byrd's comments about the names and it seems I've stuffed up.

I actually missed something

I made an assumption about something

I made the assumption that a "State" was the same as a state as I know of today...and apparently it's not.

A "State" as indicated by my source is "surrounded by water - what we would call islands".

Over the next couple of weeks I will be getting more information and will post it back here.

Cheers

JS

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
the names are indicators of cross cultural pollination, intercultural dynastic relations, or to use a modern term regressed memories?

We do know about "liminal" areas; places where there is an intercultural mix and places where dynasties are replaced by rulers from another culture (Egypt is one.) In these cases, we see language that is clearly influenced by a neighboring language. We also see a sudden shift in names that continues (remember, this evidence said it was father-to-son dynasties.)

What If we have been conditioned to in fact look the wrong way? we are looking east when we should be looking WEST, Far west.

I considered that, too... but in cases where people are named for other things (Mayan/Aztec rulers "Smoking Mirror" and "True Jaguar" and "Two Rabbits" then the name comes from a language and has meaning and form. The list and the island names had no such consistancy.

My suspicion is that this comes from some "channeled" information about Atlantis and dates from the era of Madame Blatavasky. It doesn't match with Plato's story at all (Atlantis was a land and not a series of islands. None of the older literature mentions islands.)

Have some more info and I'm getting more embarassed now

It seems that Atlanta (Atlantis?) was named from the states I have listed.

Anyhow, here's a bit more info for everyone (these paragraphs do not correspond with the paragraphs I have seen (number wise) and I have stated whether they are part paragraphs or full paragraphs):

Paragraph 1 (full): "At a period in the early history of civilization, a people existed who were very wise and progressive. They were divided into seven States; each State was surrounded by water - what we would call islands."

Paragraph 2 (part): "The chief state was Lemuria or, as it was called, the Golden City, because so much gold was seen and used."

Paragraph 2 goes on about education, science and entertainment within Lemuria and then there's this in the same paragraph, dating it at around 23000 to 26000 years ago:

"With one gigantic quake the glory of Lemuria sank beneath the raging waters. With a population of twenty million souls, she was hidden from the eyes of all men, and with her went all the records of her deeds and grandeur. All that remains are strips of lands, now inhabited by other races."

In another two paragraphs further in the material:

Paragraph 3 (full): "Time marched on, and again there arose seven states or tribes. They advanced considerably, bringing peace and prosperity to the earth. The names were Artelmis, Antipolinos, Apotemics, Labuuls, Nochs, Talenos, and Trigas."

Paragraph 4 (full): "As with all nations, trouble arises when there are those who desire to dominate or crave power"

And later:

Paragraph 5 (full):"From these seven states, Atlanta derived its name - the first letter of each: Artelmis, Talenos, Labuuls, Apotemics, Nochs, Trigas, Antipolinas."

-----

All I can say about the material is that it is from an "association" that dates back thousands of years...possibly even before the Sumerian times. It states: "(the society) have accepted this knowledge with all confidence in its integrity".

Regarding the link I gave above, that is not associated with this material at all - it was something I was researching around the same time and thought it may have some significance.

I do not have a date for the material, however I guesstimate it to be early 20th century...or around there...however that is a stab in the dark as I do not know when the printing press was invented. I do believe the material is some form of "internal" newsletter.

-----

I'm not stating the info I have is true or not but it would be interesting to see if it is actually BS or is in fact...factual.

As stated, I'll review the material over the next few weeks and if anyone has any requests regarding the *type* of information they need, I'll see if it's available.

Cheers

JS

OK, I now have an image extract from the material.

Does anybody recognise this?

It's a burning bush with seven candles, a cross and a dove at the top.




Cheers

JS

[edit on 2-7-2006 by jumpspace]

Originally posted by jumpspace
OK, I now have an image extract from the material.

Does anybody recognise this?

It's a burning bush with seven candles, a cross and a dove at the top.

Cheers

JS

[edit on 2-7-2006 by jumpspace]

Strange that this image is somehow associated with the fabled city states of Atlantis (Atlanta).
The image reminds me of the progression of the Hebrew/Christian faith.
1. Burning Bush- When God talked to Moses from a buring bush before he returned to Egypt.
2. Lampstand with seven lamps- Sacred object placed in Holy Chamber of the Tabernacle.
3. Cross- Sacrifice of Jesus Christ
4. Dove- Holy Spirit poured out upon Christs followers

Hi lostinspace,

From what I see, the image is related to their society and not Atlanta itself.

I've managed to read an area next to the image that is very difficult to read and it reads as follows (by the looks of it):

The burning bush - represents life
The lighted candles - light
The cross - love
The dove in flight - liberty

Is there any known associations/society's (present or past) that have used this image?

Cheers

JS

Originally posted by Byrd
My suspicion is that this comes from some "channeled" information about Atlantis and dates from the era of Madame Blatavasky.

Is everything Channeled?

Again, more evidence that this particular source is unreliable.

Astra is a female name and it's Greek.
Potemes is a pretend Egyptian name (it's actually Greek. Sort of.)
Talento, Santenis are Spanish in derivation. The gods know what Kyafus is supposed to be... ditto Tari and Tili.

So we have a real linguistic mishmash of names. That would be like King Henry I of England naming his sons Shemp, Godzilla, Ivan, and Anubis -- and Anubis naming his sons Tlaloc and Yugioh.

And from my perspective, I find the "variations" noted in these Names as something I would expect to find.

It would be as the differences of man, both male and female, made in the image of God and the Angels on the Sixth Day. The Races.

I would have found things more disturbing if the Names reflected a single Family Line. It should be a real mishmash in my eyes.

But we all have opinions.

Anyways have a good evening

Ciao

Shane

'Well, I haven't seen any evidence that supports the idea of ancient cross atlantic communications (trade, migration, etc), so I just can't buy the idea that Atlantis was in a place that neither plato nor any one else in the 'old world' ever heard of. I -do- keep an open mind on the subject tho, but I really need convincing evidence for all of this.' Nygdan

Originally posted by GazrokThere are THREE distinct times when Plato claims this is a TRUE tale, in the dialogue.

I have seen a fair number of things that tie the two ancient places. The reed boats of Lake Titicaca are the same as Egyptian ones. The ancient pharoahs tissues were found to contain compounds from the two american plants tobacco and coca.
The stonework in Mexico, Peru, and Egypt, in the case of the megalithic structures, is the same.



Also, the Olmec heads of America look like they portray Africans. And the two millenia old middle east legend of a paradise across the western sea, called, "L'Amerika", is provocative as well. We also know that Phoenician ships circumnavigated Africa millenia ago, proving their sea worthiness.

Orichalach was a material (metal) of some sort. It's not a metal actually known to the Greeks and they had none of it (because we do have documentation from them and we know what they called various gems, minerals, and metals.) It appears to be a made-up metal (made up by Socrates/Plato.) Byrd

I can't recall the source for this, but I have read that the metal was an alloy of copper and gold, and was found to have been used by ancients. I think in America, but not sure. It was spelt without the second a, if I recall.

www.answers.com...

[edit on 03 22 2005 by BlackGuardXIII]

This Thread has raised questions as to whether there is any "concrete evidence" to support the theory that Europeans or Mediterraneans crossed the Atlantic to the Americas in pre Columbian times. -There is evidence, which is hard to account for using the mainstream-scholarly overviews which only acknowledge Columbus and "maybe" the Norse around the 900s AD, but this evidence requires some circuitous medical-pathological analysis, and the scholars still haven't accepted it. -In Hull, England, a seaport since the medieval period, there are numerous graves of bodies exhibiting widespread bony lesions which appear classic for syphilis of bone. There are very numerous bodies with these lesions which date to the 1300s, well before Columbus, thus from a time when the scholarly overview says nobody was crossing the Atlantic. The problem with that overview is that syphilis is generally agreed to have originated in the Americas (the model held by the investigators who discovered the syphilitic bones is that a benign form of syphilis was endemic in the Caribbean areas, in which the natives developed immunity to early in life because they were exposed to the syphilis germs as babies, from their mothers' hands, and even before birth, because they received anti-syphilis antibodies through the maternal circulation.) Thus, the natives had the syphilis germs in their bodily system but never developed the serious form of syphilitic disease because they had immunity to it. However, sailors from Europe had no such immunity and thus were susceptible to the serious form of syphilis in case they had relations with native women. Scholars object to this model despite the strong pathologic evidence from the Hull investigations because, they ask, why didn't syphilis spread from the seaport areas to spread all through Europe before Columbus? (Widespread syphilitic disease is agreed to have started around 1500 when sailors from Columbus' ships got involved int a war near Naples, Italy.) One possible explanation for the lack of spread before that, and its apparent confinement to seaport locations, would be that the medieval sailors never "mixed" with the people inland, they just stayed around the wharves. Inland people had their own culture which was different from the seafarers. -Anyway, when somebody with medical-pathological expertise analyzes the lesions in the bones of the bodies from Hull fairly and objectively, they are pretty convincing. Just because the scholars won't look at them they won't go away.

Originally posted by jumpspace
It seems that Atlanta (Atlantis?) was named from the states I have listed.

I would question that source. Plato says nothing about this, nor does this appear in the more modern, "channeled" information. So your source is apparently the only source for this and is a modern source with no validation from the ancients.

Paragraph 1 (full): "At a period in the early history of civilization, a people existed who were very wise and progressive. They were divided into seven States; each State was surrounded by water - what we would call islands."

Paragraph 2 (part): "The chief state was Lemuria or, as it was called, the Golden City, because so much gold was seen and used."

This is definately a modern source, since the idea of "Lemuria" didn't exist until 1850 or so.

"With one gigantic quake the glory of Lemuria sank beneath the raging waters. With a population of twenty million souls, she was hidden from the eyes of all men, and with her went all the records of her deeds and grandeur. All that remains are strips of lands, now inhabited by other races."

This isn't actually plausible. The Earth doesn't simply collapse continents when earthquakes occur. This is borrowed from other material on Atlantis, which states (again, implausible) that Atlantis sank in an Earthquake.

Paragraph 3 (full): "Time marched on, and again there arose seven states or tribes. They advanced considerably, bringing peace and prosperity to the earth. The names were Artelmis, Antipolinos, Apotemics, Labuuls, Nochs, Talenos, and Trigas."

(etc)

But there is no evidence of these cities and so forth (which were, according to the text, important areas.) No civilization refers to them, there's none of their trade goods, and the Sumerians had no legends or knowledge of them.

All I can say about the material is that it is from an "association" that dates back thousands of years...possibly even before the Sumerian times. It states: "(the society) have accepted this knowledge with all confidence in its integrity".

Perhaps you should check up on the society's founders and prominent members. It may give you a different idea of just how "ancient" this society is. At the very least, it's surprising that an 'ancient' society would accept as truth material that is clearly modern in origin.

I do not have a date for the material, however I guesstimate it to be early 20th century...or around there...however that is a stab in the dark as I do not know when the printing press was invented. I do believe the material is some form of "internal" newsletter.

Printing was invented in the 1400's in Europe (earlier in China.)

Originally posted by jumpspace
OK, I now have an image extract from the material.

Does anybody recognise this?

It's a burning bush with seven candles, a cross and a dove at the top.

Not directly, no, but the symbols indicate again that you've got something created in the 20th century. These are all pretty standard Christian symbols and they're trying to blend it with Judaism.

At this point it wouldn't surprise me if they were promoting the idea that Jesus had the wisdom that was being taught in these "lands/cities" and that this sort of "reformed/mystical Christianity" is actually the true teaching that has been handed down for the past 20,000 years or so.

In the 1800's, the mystical societies often went in for elaborate blended Christian images or Egyptian images. But in ancient times they kept to relatively simple symbols...much easier to carve in stone and sculpt into seals.

Originally posted by Shane

Originally posted by Byrd
My suspicion is that this comes from some "channeled" information about Atlantis and dates from the era of Madame Blatavasky.

Is everything Channeled?

It's kinder than saying that "they pulled the information out of their patooties."

I would have found things more disturbing if the Names reflected a single Family Line. It should be a real mishmash in my eyes.

But they should be in the same language/language family.