If Jesus knew that he was God and had God's powers, how is that considered "making a sacrafice" ?

3 Again said God to Adam, "All this misery that you have been made to take on yourself because of your transgression, will not free you from the hand of Satan, and will not save you.
4 But I will. When I shall come down from heaven, and shall become flesh of your descendants, and take on Myself the infirmity from which you suffer, then the darkness that covered you in this cave shall cover Me in the grave, when I am in the flesh of your descendants.
5 And I, who am without years, shall be subject to the reckoning of years, of times, of months, and of days, and I shall be reckoned as one of the sons of men, in order to save you."

Something to think about.

OP, what's your beef with Jesus? Why aren't you questioning Muhammad? Buddha?

I can see what you are doing here. I'm surprised people are actually falling for it. But you are free to do as you wish.

Just know that your entire argument is based on a book of fables. Some true, most not. Would you stake your reputation on the words of the bible? I sure wouldn't. Nor would I base an argument on it either.

That would be like writing a final thesis based only on Wikipedia entries.

reply to post by adjensen


Solid post.

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." Philippians 2:5-8

Paul was basically saying that Jesus laid aside his Divine privileges and was in full submission to the Fathers will. Christ emptied himself or made himself nothing when he came to the earth as a slave. The emptying refers to his humiliation, to his humble status, not to his Divine attributes or essence since at no point in time did Jesus ever cease to be God in nature.

Originally posted by idonotcollectstamps
I am not really all that impressed with the supposed "Sacrifice" that Jesus/God made for mankind. How do you sacrifice something that you instantly immediately get back? If Jesus knew that he was God/Son of God and he knew that he had the magical powers to do anything that he so choose, and he knew that when he died it did not matter because he was aware of the powers that he still had, he knew he could return from the dead, he knew the future and saw exactly what would happen.

This Jesus guy is NOTHING like any of the mortals who he was there to inspire. He was not playing on an even playing field for one thing. He gets mad because people have rough life's and treat each other bad, SORRY BRO WE DON'T HAVE SUPER POWER! SORRY BRO WE DON'T KNOW THE FUTURE.

If God wanted to make a sacrifice for the Sins that HE CREATED why didn't he actually live a life as a HUMAN and not as an all powerful God walking among mortals?

It is almost like god just wanted to go slumming like that show "Undercover Boss" where after one episode the guy goes back to living in a mansion and getting a 10 figure salary.

How is that considered a sacrifice in any way shape or form?

Well, let's see. You're beaten, whipped, impaled, mocked, and left to die. Pre-knowledge of this is stress enough to make you sweat blood (a documented physiological response to extreme levels of stress). Even if you knew the benefits, how would YOU handle the thought of going through this, leading to your physical death?

I wrote this a long time ago, some little bits might be wrong but I was a teen at the time - what do you think?: 4-yhwh.blogspot.com...

Think about Bradley Manning and what he's going for, just for *allegedly* giving info to wikileaks about the perversion of the US government?

For the faithful, from the bible and by way of explanation of motivation:

"Isa 53:2 For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned--every one--to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?
Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors."

If you think you could handle it better and NOT consider it a sacrifice, please, let me know. And think about the fact that one day, given everything that's coming, you might be put to the test on the matter.

His thoughts near the end:

"Psa 22:1 To the choirmaster: according to The Doe of the Dawn. A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?
Psa 22:2 O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer, and by night, but I find no rest.
Psa 22:3 Yet you are holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel.
Psa 22:4 In you our fathers trusted; they trusted, and you delivered them.
Psa 22:5 To you they cried and were rescued; in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
Psa 22:6 But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by mankind and despised by the people.
Psa 22:7 All who see me mock me; they make mouths at me; they wag their heads;
Psa 22:8 "He trusts in the LORD; let him deliver him; let him rescue him, for he delights in him!"
Psa 22:9 Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.
Psa 22:10 On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God.
Psa 22:11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near, and there is none to help.
Psa 22:12 Many bulls encompass me; strong bulls of Bashan surround me;
Psa 22:13 they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion.
Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it is melted within my breast;
Psa 22:15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws; you lay me in the dust of death.
Psa 22:16 For dogs encompass me; a company of evildoers encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet--
Psa 22:17 I can count all my bones-- they stare and gloat over me;
Psa 22:18 they divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots.
Psa 22:19 But you, O LORD, do not be far off! O you my help, come quickly to my aid!
Psa 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dog!
Psa 22:21 Save me from the mouth of the lion! You have rescued me from the horns of the wild oxen!
Psa 22:22 I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you:
Psa 22:23 You who fear the LORD, praise him! All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him, and stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel!
Psa 22:24 For he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, and he has not hidden his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him.
Psa 22:25 From you comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will perform before those who fear him.
Psa 22:26 The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD! May your hearts live forever!
Psa 22:27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations shall worship before you.
Psa 22:28 For kingship belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations.
Psa 22:29 All the prosperous of the earth eat and worship; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, even the one who could not keep himself alive.
Psa 22:30 Posterity shall serve him; it shall be told of the Lord to the coming generation;
Psa 22:31 they shall come and proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn, that he has done it."

Sure, you say you might handle it better in light of the end bits. But I'd like to see it in fact!

reply to post by idonotcollectstamps


The whole story is ominous OP. From a rational point of view how long did it take people to believe that it was a sacrafice. I mean its not like they stopped doing blood sacrafices that day only the disciples knew that it was happening. I am a christian but the more I learn about real history the more it seems like people are being manipulated I mean know even know what all that symbolism is they just make it up Im not even sure a supreme creator of the universe needs a book to tell his people what to do and if you dont follow the book you burn for eternity little harsh

God knows all things. He knew when he created Adam and Eve they would disobey his laws set before them. He knew they would not pass the test, but He did not destroy the couple. (Just the beginnings of a lot more headaches for God, I would say.)
Gensis3;22..And the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become one of us, to know good and evil, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever:
And verse 24: So he drove out the man: and placed at the east of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way to the tree of life.
They definitely could not get back in! He could have started over but instead showed mercy to the couple. Getting tossed out of Paradise was a severe punishment. They had to learn how to do everything on their own, no tools, no wheels, no nothing, just start from scratch and life had to be brutal.

God would not have sent Jesus if He knew He would not be willing to die for us. Or at least, I think it was a foolproof plan. Since God knows everything from the beginning to the end.

Originally posted by idonotcollectstamps
I am not really all that impressed with the supposed "Sacrifice" that Jesus/God made for mankind. How do you sacrifice something that you instantly immediately get back? If Jesus knew that he was God/Son of God and he knew that he had the magical powers to do anything that he so choose, and he knew that when he died it did not matter because he was aware of the powers that he still had, he knew he could return from the dead, he knew the future and saw exactly what would happen.

This Jesus guy is NOTHING like any of the mortals who he was there to inspire. He was not playing on an even playing field for one thing. He gets mad because people have rough life's and treat each other bad, SORRY BRO WE DON'T HAVE SUPER POWER! SORRY BRO WE DON'T KNOW THE FUTURE.

If God wanted to make a sacrifice for the Sins that HE CREATED why didn't he actually live a life as a HUMAN and not as an all powerful God walking among mortals?

It is almost like god just wanted to go slumming like that show "Undercover Boss" where after one episode the guy goes back to living in a mansion and getting a 10 figure salary.

How is that considered a sacrifice in any way shape or form?

Parables help you understand. Let's say you are a soldier. You know you have a weapon, and you know you could die in warfare. However, you dedicate your life to saving others, and perhaps you die in the effort. Are you any less heroic because you knew you could die? Are you any less heroic because you used a weapon?

Originally posted by TomServo
Btw... God did Not create sin! If you are convinced of this, i don't know what to tell ya.

edit on 23-3-2011 by TomServo because: (no reason given)

Ha!

Finally caught one of you. You just disproved your own god.

If god did not create sin then he cannot be the creator of everything, cannot be all knowing or infallible.

I think that disqualifies someone from being a god.

Originally posted by watchitburn

Originally posted by TomServo
Btw... God did Not create sin! If you are convinced of this, i don't know what to tell ya.

edit on 23-3-2011 by TomServo because: (no reason given)

Ha!

Finally caught one of you. You just disproved your own god.

If god did not create sin then he cannot be the creator of everything, cannot be all knowing or infallible.

I think that disqualifies someone from being a god.

Wrong. Evil does not exist in and of itself but is the absence of good.

Evil has no existence of its own; it is really the absence of good. For example, holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole, but it cannot be separated from the dirt. So when God created, it is true that all He created was good.

reply to post by watchitburn


Sin is a result of God giving us free will

reply to post by BLKMJK


I am going to have to disagree, You sound like a politician.

Good and Evil are subjective. What you think is good, I might think is evil. And what you think is evil I might think is Tuesday.

Also, you can do a good thing for selfish and evil purposes.

Or you could flip that around and say good is just the absence of evil.

In the end it is just not rational.
Everyone should just do what works for them and not worry what everyone else is doing.

reply to post by watchitburn


All due respect but that notion is absurd to me, but that entire subject could cover another thread. I am posting only what falls within the pale of Christian Orthodoxy. Up is down, right is wrong, good is evil etc. The initial post does not reflect such conjecture so I must refrain.

reply to post by idonotcollectstamps


he lived in the flesh. he was tempted but didnt give in to the temptations of the flesh. that was part of the reason he was here i believe. read mathew ch4

reply to post by banned62


LOL if you actually read your bible and cannot see the ridiculous errors and mistranslations then you deserve the foolishness that you believe.

I can GUARANTEE that Christianity will fall completely flat, better jump ship soon, the impersonators of Christ's time is about up !

Originally posted by BLKMJK
reply to post by watchitburn

 

All due respect but that notion is absurd to me,

That is my point exactly, your notion is absurd to me.

But fair enough, on another thread then.

Originally posted by watchitburn

Originally posted by BLKMJK
reply to post by watchitburn

 

All due respect but that notion is absurd to me,

That is my point exactly, your notion is absurd to me.

But fair enough, on another thread then.

LOL! Touche!

Originally posted by banned62
reply to post by idonotcollectstamps

 

he lived in the flesh. he was tempted but didnt give in to the temptations of the flesh. that was part of the reason he was here i believe. read mathew ch4

He was not suppose to give into temptation or God would not have sent him. What kind of plan of God's would that have been if he had given in? A failed plan. God knew he would not fail. That was just a last ditch effort on Satan's part to try and see if he could defeat God's plan.

Added to..Yes ..he felt the pain with a human body..just like you and I., but he knew what he had to do.

Originally posted by UrgentInsurgent

The suffering Jesus endured as a flesh embodied being was terrible. He felt every bit of the torture inflicted, not immune to the pain that was inflicted upon Him.

reply to post by benedict9

 

What is pain and suffering but some chemical and electrical signals. Why is it a sacrifice if you know that you actually exist and will live on in a higher realm.

hypothetical question........if given the choice of life or death, which would you choose first? Do you think maybe Jesus had that same decision to make? He didnt have to die, he could have fled with his diciples. Instead he chose to stay and face the music. Totally unselfish is every fiber for the hope and love of all mankind for years to come till the end of time. Jesus was the son of God he wasnt stupid.......even though he was to live on, he understood that what was coming was to be very difficult...as did the devil in his temptation of jesus in the garden in the hope that Jesus would not go through with it.

To think that you are just a random genetic off shoot with electrical impulses and chemical signals is faulty at best as it does nothing to further prove your self worth as YOU see it. This is the gift God put upon man. The understanding (and capabilty to understand) all things. This is what seperates us from the animals. We are the only creature on this planet that goes through all 5 stages of evolution in the womb when a woman is creating a child..NO other animal does this. We are Unique in every respect..thus there must be a reason.....glory be to God.

Science and Religion my friend go hand in hand and you cannot have one without the other. God created all things, Science is the abiltiy to attempt to understand just how God acheived this. The more we discover....the closer we are to God. Jesus was a very cosmic thinker and very smart. He knew what was coming, he still had freedom of choice, but he went through mankinds hell to save us. No other man that has walked the earth can claim such a noble feat. He was born a man, yet became god in his ressurrection.

This is your answer....he was man before he took his place as god.

Unfortunately, when it comes to grinding out this subject, the Ignorance Denied is directly proportional to the Ignorance Created. I hate to create such a short post for such a compelling topic but: That is why they are called the 'Mysteries'. If you don't have the stomache for lots of studying then find another hobby. Because lots of studying is what you are in for, OP. Star for enthusiasm. No flag.

reply to post by idonotcollectstamps




Brilliant question and point. But don't run that one by any fundys. They'll just get upset.

Jesus is not God. God does not have any sort of human body.