If Jesus knew that he was God and had God's powers, how is that considered "making a sacrafice" ?

Originally posted by idonotcollectstamps
Regardless if Jesus was God or God's Son, my issue is still with Jesus having God's powers.

If you believe that Jesus performed miracles and had powers than you admit that Jesus did not really make that much of a sacrifice when put side by side to a mortal who does not have those powers and could not resurrect.

If you believe that Jesus did NOT have any powers (performed no miracles, was just a regular human) than why would Jesus sacrifice be more important than any other human who was killed if we are all truly God's children?

Either way I feel that the story of one person being killed having more importance than any other human on Earth to be disproved with this story. Either he had powers that elevated him above humans and thusly invalidating the sacrifice, or he had no powers and his death should be considered equal to that of EVERY human who has ever died or who ever will die.

You're missing the point I think. The fact that Jesus had the power to stop the crucifixion yet didn't. He willingly sacrificed himself for the greater good of humanity.

Originally posted by Buddha1098

Originally posted by idonotcollectstamps
Regardless if Jesus was God or God's Son, my issue is still with Jesus having God's powers.

If you believe that Jesus performed miracles and had powers than you admit that Jesus did not really make that much of a sacrifice when put side by side to a mortal who does not have those powers and could not resurrect.

If you believe that Jesus did NOT have any powers (performed no miracles, was just a regular human) than why would Jesus sacrifice be more important than any other human who was killed if we are all truly God's children?

Either way I feel that the story of one person being killed having more importance than any other human on Earth to be disproved with this story. Either he had powers that elevated him above humans and thusly invalidating the sacrifice, or he had no powers and his death should be considered equal to that of EVERY human who has ever died or who ever will die.

You're missing the point I think. The fact that Jesus had the power to stop the crucifixion yet didn't. He willingly sacrificed himself for the greater good of humanity.

Yes but he KNEW could could come back to life and he DID come back to life. What kind of a sacrifice is it to be killed when , in essence, you just come right back to life? Sure he endured a measly couple of days of pain, but what does it matter when he has the ability to invalidate all of that pain?

Like I said three days of pain can not hold a candle to the fact that he had God powers to do anything he wanted, know the future and come back to life. You could torture me for ten years STRAIGHT if I knew I had all of those powers and could come back to life anytime that I wanted.

You could kill me 1000 times and it still wouldn't matter. If it is to be considered a sacrifice, let it be considered someone taking a penny from the give a penny take a penny change holder and depositing it into the Ronald McDonald charity box.

reply to post by idonotcollectstamps


He wasn't God... only a part of...

reply to post by Akragon


But with all of the power's of God, where lies the difference? If one were to believe that Jesus had all of the powers of God, one would have a difficult time differentiating between Jesus and God. The only way one COULD point out the difference between God and Jesus would be if Jesus did NOT have all of the powers of God.

A) Jesus had ALL of the abilities and powers of God and was thusly indistinguishable from God

B) Jesus had SOME of the abilities and powers of God and was only partially as powerful as God
(and could be considered God's son)

C) Jesus had NONE of the abilities and powers of God and was just a mortal man (we should therefore consider every mortal woman and man God's Son/Daughter equally to Jesus.)

And if Jesus did infact have all of the power's of God and was not to be considered God but a separate Son carrying all of the power's of God, what does that say about God kicking Satan out of heaven for inquiring about just this exact thing?

Originally posted by idonotcollectstamps

Originally posted by Buddha1098

Originally posted by idonotcollectstamps
Regardless if Jesus was God or God's Son, my issue is still with Jesus having God's powers.

If you believe that Jesus performed miracles and had powers than you admit that Jesus did not really make that much of a sacrifice when put side by side to a mortal who does not have those powers and could not resurrect.

If you believe that Jesus did NOT have any powers (performed no miracles, was just a regular human) than why would Jesus sacrifice be more important than any other human who was killed if we are all truly God's children?

Either way I feel that the story of one person being killed having more importance than any other human on Earth to be disproved with this story. Either he had powers that elevated him above humans and thusly invalidating the sacrifice, or he had no powers and his death should be considered equal to that of EVERY human who has ever died or who ever will die.

Yes but he KNEW could could come back to life and he DID come back to life. What kind of a sacrifice is it to be killed when , in essence, you just come right back to life? Sure he endured a measly couple of days of pain, but what does it matter when he has the ability to invalidate all of that pain?

Like I said three days of pain can not hold a candle to the fact that he had God powers to do anything he wanted, know the future and come back to life. You could torture me for ten years STRAIGHT if I knew I had all of those powers and could come back to life anytime that I wanted.

You could kill me 1000 times and it still wouldn't matter. If it is to be considered a sacrifice, let it be considered someone taking a penny from the give a penny take a penny change holder and depositing it into the Ronald McDonald charity box.

Jesus sacrifice made you immortal. So in essence you will be resurrected like Jesus. Would you still welcome torture?

reply to post by idonotcollectstamps


I go for B.
The sacrifice represent the whole life on earth, which reached the climax at his death for 3 days. He was in heaven, an angel with a lot of privileges,who couldnt feel what a human feel. So, he choose to offer his life on earth, as a human being, with the limitations and humiliations that this action brought. He knew he must die, and he will be resurected, still he suffered a lot.

reply to post by amadeus30

i answered your question the simplest way i could, i didn't wanna get in to the old testament and all the foreshadowing and prophesy.

I was actually referring to another poster, but I´m glad you didn´t go all out, lol.

there is a difference in understanding something mentally and understanding something spiritually. i never push my beliefs on other people, i simply try and treat everyone and their beliefs with respect and i know everyone can't agree on everything and thats fine.. i simply live the way i believe and let everyone live how they believe.

I understand, I walk a spiritual path too, my own, but I agree with what you said, too each their own, I meant no disrespect to anyone, I just like to get answers to obvious questions when someone is telling me something that I should believe in, wich happened twice last month, in real life. In those cases I felt disrespected after a while, lol.

reply to post by Buddha1098



Three days of extreme torture in exchange for knowing anything that I wanted to, having the magical powers to DO anything that I ever wanted to, never being able to be killed.
Is that even a QUESTION? Like I said you could torture me for a year straight if I was allowed to have those powers and the only clause in the contract was that I couldn't use those powers to free myself.

Let's look at this another way. If you believe that Jesus DID INDEED come back to life after three days of being tortured and then killed. That means that this HUGE sacrafice that was made for you was....

3/730,000 days.

Three days out of the last Seven Hundred and Thirty Thousand days (2,000 years) that Jesus has existed have been bad days for Jesus.........*cough cough*

You are darn tooting I would take that deal IN A NEW YORK MINUTE! Three days of torture in exchange for 2,000 year of not only immortality, but any power you could ever conceive of having, the ability to change and alter the very fabric OF THE UNIVERSE at will!

reply to post by idonotcollectstamps

C) Jesus had NONE of the abilities and powers of God and was just a mortal man (we should therefore consider every mortal woman and man God's Son/Daughter equally to Jesus.)

True but can you live up to the example he set for us all? We may be equal, but we can only strive to be what he was...mortal but without sin.

reply to post by idonotcollectstamps


I understand your point of view. The sacrifice it s not only about his death,the number of days, but also about the torture,so the level of the pain he must endured. We cant even imagine how he felt nailed on that stake.

Originally posted by idonotcollectstamps
reply to post by Buddha1098

 

Three days of extreme torture in exchange for knowing anything that I wanted to, having the magical powers to DO anything that I ever wanted to, never being able to be killed.
Is that even a QUESTION? Like I said you could torture me for a year straight if I was allowed to have those powers and the only clause in the contract was that I couldn't use those powers to free myself.

Let's look at this another way. If you believe that Jesus DID INDEED come back to life after three days of being tortured and then killed. That means that this HUGE sacrafice that was made for you was....

3/730,000 days.

Three days out of the last Seven Hundred and Thirty Thousand days (2,000 years) that Jesus has existed have been bad days for Jesus.........*cough cough*

You are darn tooting I would take that deal IN A NEW YORK MINUTE! Three days of torture in exchange for 2,000 year of not only immortality, but any power you could ever conceive of having, the ability to change and alter the very fabric OF THE UNIVERSE at will!

I'm not a Christian but I attempted to explain to you why Jesus sacrifice meant something from a Christian perspective. That's awesome that you'd accept torture for magic powers. I don't know how that is relevant however.

Originally posted by idonotcollectstamps
Yes but he KNEW could could come back to life and he DID come back to life. What kind of a sacrifice is it to be killed when , in essence, you just come right back to life? Sure he endured a measly couple of days of pain, but what does it matter when he has the ability to invalidate all of that pain?

You seem to be implying that he didn't suffer enough to suit you, which seems a bit odd.

However, setting that aside, consider what we believe Christ to be -- fully God, fully man, so whatever pain you might feel from having chunks of skin flayed off your back with a Roman scourging, or the pain from having nails driven into your wrists and feet, or any of the rest of it -- Christ felt.

We also believe that God loves each and every one of us, unconditionally. With every fibre of his being, God loves you, loves me, loves Pontius Pilate, Judas Iscariot, loves everyone. Think of someone that you feel like you love unconditionally -- a kid, spouse, your Mom, whoever. Now imagine them inflicting the pain described above on you, and not just doing it, but relishing in it. Enjoying every minute of the torture.

How would that make you feel?

In that moment of crucifixion, God took all the sins of the world -- every sin in the past, every sin in the future -- and took them upon himself.

Christians believe that Jesus did this for every one, in a tragically real sense -- he loves you so much that if everyone else in the world was perfect, free from sin, and had no need for redemption, he'd have gone to the cross anyway, just for you. You didn't ask for it, you might not even want it, but it's there for you, regardless.

To answer another question in the thread, about why this had to happen, I like Anselm of Canterbury's view of "satisfaction." God cannot just wave away sin -- that is acquiescing to evil, saying that actions and intentions are of no consequence, so evil "wins". So a price must be paid to merit salvation, to meet the justice of satisfaction.

For Anselm, a Middle Ages theologian, different crimes required different levels of satisfaction, based on who they were committed against -- a crime against the king was far more serious than a crime against a peasant. This is still often the case -- a man who hits another man is viewed differently than a man who strikes a woman, or a child.

In sinning, we have committed a crime against an infinite being, and have thus incurred a penalty that would require an infinite repayment to meet satisfaction. A debt that we can obviously never pay, a debt that could never be paid on our behalf by anyone. Except an infinite being.

So, we sin against God, God pays the infinite price to meet satisfaction, and, if we accept it, we are "clothed in Christ's righteousness" when judgement comes -- Christ, effectively stands up on our behalf, says "I've got this covered", and we're in the pink.

That's the Christian view, of course. Your mileage may vary, depending on theology.

reply to post by adjensen


It's not that Jesus did not suffer enough, it's that he did not suffer AT ALL! The sacrifice that gets taken back as soon as it is offered is no sacrifice. I give my life for humanity, except I decided that I am not giving it and I am coming back to life because, well, I have magical powers and you don't.

You should be appreciative of money that I put in the collection plate, only to take it back as soon as no one is looking and stick it back in my wallet?

That is no sacrifice, that is called Indian Giving.

I could probably pick any war that mankind has waged in the last 2000 years and find examples of pain and anguish and terror and horror FAR FAR beyond anything that Jesus experienced. If anything WE as humans make the sacrifice for Jesus and God and it is THEY that should be bowing down before US. THEY should be thankful and give praise to US for what WE have to endure because THEY made it this way.

Originally posted by idonotcollectstamps
You should be appreciative of money that I put in the collection plate, only to take it back as soon as no one is looking and stick it back in my wallet?

So, by your logic, if I take a hammer and break all the fingers on your right hand, once your fingers no longer hurt, you've no complaint with me?

Again, you seem a bit sadistic (or at least incredibly ignorant of the practice of Roman scourging,) but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. How much more would Christ have had to suffer in order to gain your respect?

(Just in case you're interested, here is an article from the Journal of the American Medical Association which graphically describes the practice of scourging and crucifixion.)

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by idonotcollectstamps
You should be appreciative of money that I put in the collection plate, only to take it back as soon as no one is looking and stick it back in my wallet?

So, by your logic, if I take a hammer and break all the fingers on your right hand, once your fingers no longer hurt, you've no complaint with me?

Again, you seem a bit sadistic (or at least incredibly ignorant of the practice of Roman scourging,) but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. How much more would Christ have had to suffer in order to gain your respect?

(Just in case you're interested, here is an article from the Journal of the American Medical Association which graphically describes the practice of scourging and crucifixion.)

By my logic if I take a hammer and smash all of your fingers, and you declare that this is the greatest sacrifice that any being could ever make for humanity, and then you use your magic powers to heal all of your wounds THAT makes your sacrifice invalidated.

Why is it more important that Jesus endured what many other humans have endured before AND after him?

It is like a king trying to make a big show out of the fact that he comes down from his castle once a year to take part in a banquet with the peasants. We all know that it is just for show, we all know he is going to go back to his castle and his wealth while we suffer and scrape by.

reply to post by idonotcollectstamps

Either way I feel that the story of one person being killed having more importance than any other human on Earth to be disproved with this story. Either he had powers that elevated him above humans and thusly invalidating the sacrifice, or he had no powers and his death should be considered equal to that of EVERY human who has ever died or who ever will die

I follow what you are saying here, and I agree that those are the only two reasonable considerations on the purported sacrifice.

My own perspective is that Jesus, while he was alive, stood as ransom for some of the heavier sins of his disciples so they may enter into the kingdom of heaven, though by disciples I mean only those whom Jesus initiated personally during the course of his ministry. The karmic burden of this mere handful of disciples was so heavy that it necessitated a grievous price. So in this sense, his pain was a sacrifice, but only for those few "marked sheep" from the time of his ministry in the flesh.

Originally posted by idonotcollectstamps
By my logic if I take a hammer and smash all of your fingers, and you declare that this is the greatest sacrifice that any being could ever make for humanity, and then you use your magic powers to heal all of your wounds THAT makes your sacrifice invalidated.

Well, except that he didn't heal anything. He died. Resurrected three days later, the human Jesus still had his wounds, and there's no reason not to think that he still doesn't have them today.

Why is it more important that Jesus endured what many other humans have endured before AND after him?

Again, I think that you're woefully ignorant about what he went through, but sure, other people have suffered as much or more, at least physically. I'm not sure what the word "important" in that sentence means, though. Jesus' going to the cross was an act of submission for our benefit -- something he didn't need to do, clearly, but that he willingly did.

Most people can't even manage a headache without taking an aspirin -- for whom would you be willing to submit to torture, ridicule and death?

It is like a king trying to make a big show out of the fact that he comes down from his castle once a year to take part in a banquet with the peasants. We all know that it is just for show, we all know he is going to go back to his castle and his wealth while we suffer and scrape by.

You seem to have a bizarre sense of justice and proportion, and again I'll ask you to explain how much you think Christ needed to suffer in order to earn your respect? And whose fault is it that Christ is dead and in heaven, while we plod along here on Earth? Do you think God is to blame for us "suffering and scraping by"?

But people who aren't spiritual can't receive these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can't understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means.1 Corinthians 2:14

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.1 Corinthians 1:18

19For that which is known about God is evident to them and made plain in their inner consciousness, because God [Himself] has shown it to them.

20For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],(B)

21Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and [c]godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.Romans 1 : 19-21

It's because he lived a perfect life, never sinned once. He came to testify to the truth, to fulfill the law, and die as a perfect sacrifice. His death and resurrection may have sealed the deal, but it was his life and his works that set man free. ONLY if you accept Jesus into your heart are your sins forgiven, for if you don't accept him, you are damned. If you accept him and allow him to live inside you spiritually, you are saved forever. There is no "I used to be a christian, but now.." Once you're a Christian, you're always a Christian. There's no if's and's or but's about it.

If you die with the holy spirit inside you, you'll stand before God in all his glory and he will look down upon you and instead of the broken, sinful man you once were on Earth, God will see his Son, that died on the cross. He will welcome you into Heaven, because the sins were wiped clean with Jesus, the perfect sacrifice.

reply to post by Faith2011

But people who aren't spiritual can't receive these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can't understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means.1 Corinthians 2:14

This may be so, but how can anyone judge themselves as being spiritual, or having spiritual insight? Anyone who regards themselves as spiritual may very well be deceiving themselves.