Compasses going crazy...Theories and Research

reply to post by THEDUDE86
We were "Not" comparing anything whatsoever to True North, We were comparing the Magnetic North to the fact that it is moving a lot faster than what we have been told by MSM. And anomolies appear to be forming where the compasses are way off the norm. Most of the posting on this thread is about someone trying to educate everyone on True North, and telling everyone they don't know how to read a compass, so much so that the subject of the thread got totally lost. A lot of people even joined ATS just to be in on the conversation, well they haven't come back on since all of the "experts" put everyone down as hoaxers or dummies.

reply to post by MadDogtheHunter


before this thread appeared I began researching this after I saw it on the news, where it even talks about the need for airports to repaint thier runways. www.youtube.com...

another news clip, where a scientist even speaks of a complete pole flip www.youtube.com...

two scientific articals here www.helium.com... .www.helium.com...

Originally posted by coolottie
reply to post by Doc Holiday

 

So you know what I was saying. And for people still wondering what I meant by the Pole Star rotates around the pole In this video, "Earth Fast Foreward" if you look at the North Pole it even goes around faster up there than the rest of the earth since it is the top of the "Top". The Pole Star is the Celestrial Pole, Not True North. You stated you didn't believe it went east to west[Clock Wise][that was a quote from Wikepedia, I know they insist on being accurate] the same reason water goes down the drain in the northern part of the planet. The South Pole goes the opposite, Counter Clock Wise, so the water goes down the drain Counter Clock Wise in the Southern part of the planet.
Here is the video link

www.bing.com...

The direction of true north is marked in the skies by the north celestial pole. For most practical purposes, this is the position of Polaris. However, due to the precession of the Earth's axis, true north rotates in an arc that takes approximately 25,000 years to complete. In 2102[1] Polaris will make its closest approach to the celestial north pole. 5,000 years ago, the closest star to the celestial north pole was Thuban

From what I understand....true north is marked by celestial north. True north is a geographic location on Earth and if you draw a line out into space, its always going to be connected to a celestial north. Celestial north is what changes over time due to the wobble of our geographic true north. Since the geographic north on Earth wobbles to the celestial background, our celestial north is what changes over time, hence, we have different north stars marking celestial north every few thousand years.

Originally posted by infojunkie2
reply to post by MadDogtheHunter

 

before this thread appeared I began researching this after I saw it on the news, where it even talks about the need for airports to repaint thier runways. www.youtube.com...

another news clip, where a scientist even speaks of a complete pole flip www.youtube.com...

two scientific articals here www.helium.com... .www.helium.com...

edit on 31-3-2011 by infojunkie2 because: (no reason given)

This is not the first time a airport has done this...because the magnetic poles DO wander. Yes, they have seemed to wander further and faster in the last 10 years if you compare the last 10 years to the last say 100 years but its debatable that this wandering is still outside the norm or not. Its hard to say it is or isnt because we have not been observing the wandering of the poles for that long really.

I do think though that alot of the readings on the thread were wrong. I do think that alot of people were reading compasses inside their homes or were not updating their declination of their area. Its seeming to make people upset that this is pointed out. There are some on here that were claiming that the magnetic north should be the same as it was 11 years ago and this is not so because it wonders and declination should be figured on a yearly, if not daily, basis.

Im not saying that all the readings were wrong....but Im also not saying that people should not go back and redo their readings outside and after they figured declination.

Originally posted by coolottie
reply to post by THEDUDE86

 

We were "Not" comparing anything whatsoever to True North, We were comparing the Magnetic North to the fact that it is moving a lot faster than what we have been told by MSM. And anomolies appear to be forming where the compasses are way off the norm. Most of the posting on this thread is about someone trying to educate everyone on True North, and telling everyone they don't know how to read a compass, so much so that the subject of the thread got totally lost. A lot of people even joined ATS just to be in on the conversation, well they haven't come back on since all of the "experts" put everyone down as hoaxers or dummies.

If you are right...I find it strange that all of these people do not come back on here and say "Yes, I figured in the declination for my area and YES, I took my compass outside and it still showed the strange readings".

So I invite anyone that did make sure to figure their declination and did take a reading outside...to come back and say so.

I noticed several people that said they were taking their readings inside a home. This in itself can cause a misreading.

reply to post by LeoVirgo


according to this site, it depends on where you live.

Unfortunately, the north pole that the compass needle points towards is not the same one that Santa lives in, and in 1998, it was about 725 miles away and is constantly moving! Depending on where you live on earth, this may result in a compass error (called declination) of anywhere from a few degrees up to 20-30 degrees or rarely even more. The amount of error (declination) in your area is indicated by a series of arrows located at the bottom left of your topographic map. In the figure below, the declination is 8 degrees to the West of true North.

www.gpsnuts.com...

reply to post by LeoVirgo
The North Pole in the middle of a 40 mile circumference which the celetrial pole star travels around every 24 hours. And the earth does turn completely around every 24 hrs. The circle the pole star goes around is in a clock wise direction. So the pole star really just give a direction of where True North is but not the True North pole. Since the thread is about Magnetic North we need to stay on the subject. Does your compass so any anomolies or is it where it should be? And from what general location are you? Sorry I got off the subject for a moment. Magnetic Polarity is what we are discussing.

Originally posted by coolottie
reply to post by LeoVirgo

 

The North Pole in the middle of a 40 mile circumference which the celetrial pole star travels around every 24 hours. And the earth does turn completely around every 24 hrs. The circle the pole star goes around is in a clock wise direction. So the pole star really just give a direction of where True North is but not the True North pole. Since the thread is about Magnetic North we need to stay on the subject. Does your compass so any anomolies or is it where it should be? And from what general location are you? Sorry I got off the subject for a moment. Magnetic Polarity is what we are discussing.

Im not trying to stay off topic but I think you are confused or else the way you are explaining it is confusing me.

The celestial pole star does not travel around the north pole in a circle every 24 hours. For the most part, from day to day basis at least, the north pole is fixed to the celestial pole star. Only over thousands of years will the north pole wobble on the celestial sphere.

When we take a video of the night sky facing the north star...the north star does not make a circle image on the video but it stays a fixed point. All the other stars seem to move around it due to the Earths spin.

Our north pole from a day to day basis stays fixed to the celestial pole star. Over a long period of time, the wobble will cause the north pole to move around the celestial pole stars. If the north pole did circle around the celestial north star every night, then Polaris would not show up as a fixed point in a video that observes it throughout the night. The Earths spin from day to day stays fixed to the celestial north star. The Earths wobble causes the celestial north pole star to change over long periods of time. This is not noticeable from day to day.

I did leave a comment about me checking a compass. At first I thought something was showing that there was a great change but I was inside the house. As soon as I went outside away from the house the compass showed north perfectly.

Yes, the Earth does turn completely around in 24 hours but during 24 hours time the north pole stays fixed to the celestial north pole star which is currently Polaris. Only the slow wobble changes this over time. The Earths spin does not change this throughout one days time.


Edit to add...Im in northeast Alabama.

Originally posted by infojunkie2
reply to post by LeoVirgo

 

according to this site, it depends on where you live.

Unfortunately, the north pole that the compass needle points towards is not the same one that Santa lives in, and in 1998, it was about 725 miles away and is constantly moving! Depending on where you live on earth, this may result in a compass error (called declination) of anywhere from a few degrees up to 20-30 degrees or rarely even more. The amount of error (declination) in your area is indicated by a series of arrows located at the bottom left of your topographic map. In the figure below, the declination is 8 degrees to the West of true North.

www.gpsnuts.com...

Right because geographic north pole and magnetic north are two different things. The compass detects magnetic north....so to figure true north, one must figure declination.

reply to post by LeoVirgo


So this celestial pole you speak of has no bearing on magnetic North does it? If it does please provide that info, if not please discuss the magnetic north and the anomalies in compasses, which is the topic at hand.

Well, north is still where it should be in NB. Going for a hike, have a nice day. Hope it is not too muddy out, damn melting snow

Originally posted by habfan1968
reply to post by LeoVirgo

 

So this celestial pole you speak of has no bearing on magnetic North does it? If it does please provide that info, if not please discuss the magnetic north and the anomalies in compasses, which is the topic at hand.

When discussing compass readings....you really need to talk about both.

Some things were brought up that were not true. I only responded for clarity. Sorry if you felt that was uncalled for.

About True North. It does have a direct bearing. I and anyone else that is comparing claims to actual declination data need to know the compass reader has actually used a known north reference point (be it polaris, grid, true) and their location.

Which so far in over 70 threads seems to amount to just a few people. ;-D

The posters such as LeoVirgo, Supermeru, nenothtu these guys know what's up. Coolottie, I am wondering why you are trying to exclude discussion on true north?

Well, at least there is a lot of good information to be had in this thread. My reading in California is still as normal as it was back in pg. 36 of this thread.

Originally posted by coolottie
reply to post by nenothtu

 

The thing is that True North is not unchanging,

Incorrect. True north IS unchanging. It's a geographical convention that has longitudinal lines converging at the north spin pole, That spin pole does not change, apart from the Chandler wobble. 20 feet change compared against the size of the earth is incosequential. Do the math, find out what angle 20 feet subtends at your distance from the north pole, and you'll see for yourself what I mean about that.

the North Star is not on True North but moves around it in a 24 hour cycle.

Correct. Polaris is 3/4 of one degree offset from true north this year. That means that in 24 hours, it describes a circle with a radius of 3/4 of one degree, and a diameter of 1.5 degrees. At any one time, it will be 3/4 of one degree offset from the north pole Hardly cataclysmic, and it certainly won't throw a compass reading off by 45 degrees.

This is because the Earth Wobbles.

Incorrect. It's because Polaris is offset from true north by 3/4 degree, and appears to spin around the true north pole as the Earth rotates.

When Man first stepped foot on the Moon, they set up refectors to monitor the wobble of the earth. The wobble causes the North Star to make a circle around the North Pole.

Incorrect. See above.

And I guess we better take into account that the earth is slowing down in rotation about a half a nano second each day, therefore everyday is longer than the day before.

Inconsequential, and irrelevant to direction finding. rotational speed doesn't affect where your compass points. Neither does the length of day.

Here on this link is a map, that was shown early in this thread showing the alignment in my area. The Mississippi River is 0, I am 2 lines west of it.

You say two lines EAST of it below.

Now , also notice the little circle at the True North Pole and the True South Pole, that little circle shows how much the True poles rotate every 24 hours.

I could not find that circle, even with your clarifying post below this one. I found a circle approximating the polar drift over the precessional cycle, which is roughly 26,000 years long, not 24 hours, and at that it was still only an approximation for purposes of illustrating polar precession, not the location of Polaris.

Notice the black line with 0° on it running down the Mississippi river? Along this particular line, both the geographic and magnetic north poles are in alignment so there is no declination. If you move East of this line, the magnetic north pole will pull your compass needle further and further to the West of geographic north - the angle of compass declination is West Declination. Moving west of the Mississippi river will pull your compass needle further and further to the East.

Link
www.compassdude.com...

Correct.

I am 2 clickes east of the Mississippi.

Above you said "west" of the Mississippi. You should firm that up. East and west are pretty basic, and directly opposite one another.

which will cause the compass to be slighty pointing east.

Only if you're west of the line. If you're east of it, as you said just above, it will deflect to the west.

My friend that ploted the position of the house at first did not believe it was pointing Northeast and did a declination, because he thought it had to be the problem. Well, it wasn't wrong. North is Northeast where I am. Now getting a camera and pointing the compass at the North Star is totally rediculious.

Agreed. That would take a fairly long exposure time with just a camera.

Yesterday, I got an email from Dr. Barry Warmkessel, an Astrophsyicst, he had been in China all week and could not get back to me sooner on this. His statement on the matter.

I am away from my research sources, but the Earth has not just a single magnetic pole, but has several smaller dipoles that could be growing. In fact the one near South Africa has already flipped, so some of these minor poles could be growing in strengh.

You may notice, if you actually read my posts, that nowhere have I said anything to contradict that,

After getting the email, I can see, where you think everyone that has an off reading must be wrong, well we are not wrong.

You'll also notice, if you bother to take your own advice and go back and read the thread, or at least my posts in it, I've said no such thing. As a matter of fact, I've said quite the opposite. Did you read my post about the anomaly around Alamance, NC? That was a reading I took, and it was off. Very off. OR about the shift over a weeks time in where magnetic north was at the place I work? That reading was taken by myself, as well.

I hardly think, in light of those, that I've said anywhere that "everyone with an off reading must be wrong".

Maybe in your case, but not in general. The first step for you, personally, may be to decide if you are to the east or to the west of the zero declination line, and then go from there. A mistake like that - not knowing if your declination is to the east or to the west - can throw a reading WAY off.

And let's see your proof of your compass being right, If everyone on ATS, has to have total proof of everything they say, then you should have a field day on the UFO threads.

I've not required anyone to provide "proof" that their compass was "right". I don't normally deal in "proof", but rather in "evidence". I don't require "proof", but I don't swallow anything not backed with some sort of "evidence", either.

Yes, I've had a field day in UFO threads with people making outrageous claims, then being utterly unable to provide evidence. It hurts ufology in general when people do that, and I don't stand still for it. For an example, read my signature. Follow the link, and be enlightened.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo

The north star (Polaris) is 1 degree off of true north and it will be like that for another 1000 years.

Polaris is 3/4 degree off the pole right now, and will be less that 1/2 degree off in 2100/2102, at which time it will slowly start drifting away from the pole again.

As the earth spins every day, stars along the ecliptic 'APPEAR' to move east to west while our true north and Polaris stay aligned (for now). There is not enough daily movement to say that our true north actually 'moves around' the north star. True north does not rotate on a daily basis around Polaris. But over a long period of time, Polaris will not be our plotting star for true north. For now though, it is pretty darn perfect to be a plotting spot on a daily basis.

That's essentially spot on. The key word there is "APPEARS". The stars aren't moving around the Earth, they appear to move from the surface because the Earth is rotating. True north doesn't revolve around Polaris in a day, or even appear to. Instead, Polaris appears to revolve around true north, in a very small (r = 3/4 deg) circle.

Just because its 1 degree off from true north does not mean that our true north position circles around the north star every day.

Exactly!

Originally posted by coolottie
The Pole Star is the Celestrial Pole, Not True North.

Celestial north IS "true north". It's the projection of true north into the cosmos, on the "celestial sphere", just as the celestial equator is the projection of Earth's equator onto the celestial sphere.

Polaris is not exactly on the celestial pole, it is offset by 3/4 degree.

reply to post by LeoVirgo


LeoVirgo: I was one of the "original" posters to this thread that said I have a 15 degree "off" reading to the NE. I took my declination into account, did lots of research, used my maps, took several different readings using two different compasses in several different location OUTSIDE of my home and still had the "off" reading and still days later have the "off" reading. So obviously you didn't start reading this thread from the beginning or you would have seen that quite a few of us did take all that into accound and you wouldn't have made your comment about "I haven't seen people come in after they have figured in their declination and are OUTSIDE their house saying they are still getting strange readings." Just FYI, it helps if you read the whole thread from the beginning instead of just jumping in and assuming people like me can't use a compass. If I followed North on my compass, I would end up almost in Greenland, which is NOT where NASA, google, and other sites says magnectic north is.

I left this thread for a few days because of the same things being said over and over again about basically us not being able to read a compass, etc. And I pop back in to see if any progress was made and how many others were getting "strange/off readings, or if their readings had gone back to normal. Looks like though, that it's the same arguments just by some different people. So I was right to leave.

Originally posted by watchdog
reply to post by LeoVirgo

 

LeoVirgo: I was one of the "original" posters to this thread that said I have a 15 degree "off" reading to the NE. I took my declination into account, did lots of research, used my maps, took several different readings using two different compasses in several different location OUTSIDE of my home and still had the "off" reading and still days later have the "off" reading. So obviously you didn't start reading this thread from the beginning or you would have seen that quite a few of us did take all that into accound and you wouldn't have made your comment about "I haven't seen people come in after they have figured in their declination and are OUTSIDE their house saying they are still getting strange readings." Just FYI, it helps if you read the whole thread from the beginning instead of just jumping in and assuming people like me can't use a compass. If I followed North on my compass, I would end up almost in Greenland, which is NOT where NASA, google, and other sites says magnectic north is.

I left this thread for a few days because of the same things being said over and over again about basically us not being able to read a compass, etc. And I pop back in to see if any progress was made and how many others were getting "strange/off readings, or if their readings had gone back to normal. Looks like though, that it's the same arguments just by some different people. So I was right to leave.

I actually have read 3/4 of the thread before I posted. I did see your post. I was not assuming ALL PEOPLE THAT HAD POSTED needed to come back and reaffirm things. If you stated that you read your compass outside then that is all that is needed. I find the info then much more concrete with a post like yours. I simply said there is a need to make sure all the posters were doing such as you did (going outside, taking several readings ect).

Surely we are not going to assume that all the posters were talking of the same readings. Some have taken declination into account and some are not. I think we need to be clear who has and who has not. Who is seeing that true north is off after they figure declination and who could be dealing with a compass that has a old declination figured into it ect ect. There can be many issues here.

Im sorry you took offense in me wanting to reaffirm details from the posters that did not state if they were outside, did not state if they were using declination or not.

The way you did it is best I think. Even though everyone keeps wanting to talk about magnetic north....IF they figure the declination and their compass does not show true north (such as with polaris or another marker) then we can start to assume that something is not right. Declination should give you true north and if its not...then something would be off and this something would and could be the magnetic declination degrees that we are being given.

This is not a simple issue that we should all just take right at face value of everyones reading of the compass. We are talking about something big here and we need to be clear on what steps everyone is taking when they give a reading.

Someone stated that they thought everyone stopped posting in the thread because people were wanting to bring up other points that they found invalid. So, I tried to be kind and open and show that I welcome all posters to be more clear in the steps they took. Those that were clear from the get go, need not to feel attacked or harped on in any way and I thank you for pointing out again your post.

I remember someone was saying something about a stone in their yard 11 years ago that was marked with magnetic north and that now magnetic north was not lining up to that stone. Its easy to become all worked up quickly even though we all know the magnetic north MOVES and does not stay fixed. So it was for reasons like that I felt the need to start calming people down and making sure everyone was looking at this in a calm and careful manner.

Since we have alot of people showing strange readings alongside plenty of people showing no strange readings....to me it looks like we are seeing many little dip holes of the magnetic poles finding their way or readjusting, if you will.

If someone comes on here and they did a reading with a compass that had a old declination in it...their reading is going to be off and they may not even know it was figured to a old marker in the past. If someone else is not using any declination at all..their reading is going to differ from others who are using declination.

There are issues and for people to be leaving the thread due to the fact that there can be issues and its not all just cut and dry with every single reading that has been given, seems silly to me. Im a bit confused why those that are getting the 'off readings' are not wanting to make sure everyone is reading and using the compass the same way as they are.

I never said that anyone here could not use a compass. I have simply pointed out that there can be issues and reasons why people are getting different readings. Do you and others simply shrug that off? Surely not.

All my best
LV

reply to post by watchdog



Also...

If you did figure in your declination and you were to walk 'north' as you say. This should not take you to magnetic north...but should take you to true north.

Just to be clear.

If you dont figure in declination..then yes, that would take you to magnetic north (or is supposed to anyways).

Can I ask where you pulled your declination information from?

reply to post by LeoVirgo


I think they were talking about following the north end of the needle. that's going to point to magnetic north (even if it's pointing to the magnetic north of a localized anomalous magnetic field) no matter where the declination ring is set.