Did Jesus Really Make A Sacrifice?

"Christ" did absolutely nothing.

People have suffered far worse fates than a supposed "Christ" who had a direct-line to a magical manipulator in the sky. A supposed free-ticket to be resurrected and sent back to heaven, while people remained on Earth to suffer disgustingly brutal fates.

Other people were crucified next to Jesus, and some suffered far more. Ooo, God "sacrificed" his only son, who magically resurrected and returned to his cosmic state. Wow, such a sacrifice! Like logging off-and-on the internet.. Ooo! Can the rest of us do that?! Aw, shucks no!

Try being a hopeless orphan in some forsaken dump, with no future next time, Jesus. Instead of a holy space-ghost with a cosmic father, spending time at banquets, turning water into wine at weddings, etc. etc.

What a joke.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Forget about Christ - we've all got the potential to do good. Christ doesn't own that concept.

You are correct, we all have the potential. Christ merely showed the way. The question is, when will others follow in his way?

If it was so easy, we should not have any wars, hunger, or oppression.

Let me know when you have made the mark.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by 5StarOracle
First of all Jesus did sacrifice his life as a man for you.

When in the garden he did sweat and cry tears of blood as he knew full well what was comming. This is an actual human condition which can only be brought about by extreme stress.

He knew what was to take place in a short amount of time not only because he was God as man in living flesh, but also because of the prophesy of old, generations before his birth on the comming messiah.

Now for this man to orchestrate his life from birth to death no beyond death even, is beyond any calculation. The FACT that he did fullfill scripture can only be seen therefore as miraculous,as numbers show to make this possible through will or coincidence beyond impossible.

There is a book called "The day Christ died" which goes into great detail to show how he did fullfill the scriptures, whats more it does a nice job of prooving his existance through historical documents.

This documented proof comes mosty from those who were opposed to him, which in and of itself is a miracle and lends greater credential to the fact that he indeed walked the earth.

Your uneducated opinion on such matters can only bring ridicule for yourself. If you can find fault in the teachings of Christ then do so.

Those beyond your capabilities have failed, I know you will indeed die before this happens. So instead of wasting your time and everyone elses for that matter, why dont you go learn something. Then the next time you make a post you can base it on FACT & TRUTH...

Maybe then you will show your worth to others and attain the stars and flags you desire so much.

I'm certain, that you use the word 'fact' in quite another way than I would do. In fact I believe it's a fact, that when you talk about 'facts' you mean your personal faith, which appears to be your compulsary measure-tape for everything and everybody.

You are ofcourse free to make derogatory tirades against anyone not sharing your self-appointed truths; telling them about the superior qualities in YOUR system, from where you so elegantly can silence all opposition with 'I'm right, because I'm right'.

I'm also certain, that your method will be a hit, and that mankind now will flock back to one of the 34.000 christian churches.

As to finding fault in christian techings/doctrines there ARE those of us, who daringly go so far in individual and critical thinking, that we even question the 'original sin' doctrine. In SPITE of all the very touching and convincing embellishing allegories about a schizoid 'god', who was a strict, but just, parent.

And without 'original sin' there's no need for NT, there's no need for contracts (covenants), there's no need for interfering old ladies of both genders to push a sick and perverted morality and there's no need for 'god's soldiers'.

But not agreeing with you, we are ofcourse nothing.

To make a sacrifice, it is implied that you must give up something of value to yourself, otherwise it is not a sacrifice, that is to say, giving up something of no value to yourself is no sacrifice at all. What did Jesus sacrifice anyway? What did He give up that was of value to Him? Now, we know that Jesus lived in this world for thirty-some years. We know that He was fully human. We know that He enjoyed food, drink, the company of friends, children, and all things that were good. He had, as a man, every right to turn away from His fate, and live out His life as a man, to marry, have children, all that stuff. He gave it all up, and that is what makes it a sacrifice. God the Father also sacrificed, offering up His Son, much as Abraham [almost] offered up Isaac. Do not take this Gift lightly, it is precious beyond measure...

You scoffers will have your reward, but why not accept the better Gift???

Originally posted by bogomil
As to finding fault in christian techings/doctrines there ARE those of us, who daringly go so far in individual and critical thinking, that we even question the 'original sin' doctrine. In SPITE of all the very touching and convincing embellishing allegories about a schizoid 'god', who was a strict, but just, parent.

Hello again my friend! Love seeing your posts as always. You know the funny thing about original sin is that the concept was supposed to teach that no one has a place to judge others. Unfortunately the Judaic Priesthood did not see it that way and set up methods whereby you could be judged for your sins, assessed a fine (by a dove, goat, or lamb and all is forgiven), or be stoned if you could not afford it or would not agree to stop the disapproved behavior. Christ saw the flaw, taught against it, and his followers (the Catholic Church) go and set the same system right back up after his death. Go figure eh.

Christ is the messiah

There's my latest bahkti on the subject if you want to dive in.

See ya round my friend!

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by Griffo


Are you a sinner or not if you say not, then you believe that your are smarter then God.

If you said yes then you have some understanding that God created everything and you must follow his rules.

That is what free will.

Your understanding of the Word of God is brought on by others presuppositions.
To understand the word is not to accept everything men tell you about it but to pray and read and study the original words and their meanings.`

Jesus was born mortal, he was the Son of God, his blood was God's blood.
I know this as if a woman's pregnancy is perfect the babies blood never mixes with the woman's and therefore is the fathers.

Jesus performed the miracles through the Holy Spirit, his death was a sacrifice by his heavenly Father, not his own.

His Three Days in the Grave was when he descended into Hell to rescue those who accept him as Lord and Savior.

His Resurrection is a testimony to the Victory over Hell and Death as those who believe in Him will never suffer the second death of eternal darkness in Hell, some will never experience the First death of the body by being taken up at the rapture.

reply to post by ACTS 2:38


What rubbish you preach

"Free Will of Christianity"

Originally posted by ReRun
reply to post by Griffo

 

Christianity is nothing more than a "hand-me-down" religion that has it's roots in paganism . Anyone who cares to do some serious study , will see this is the truth .

I'll put my flame-suit on also , as I'm sure the zealots will be along shortly .

It amazes me that people still believe in these superstitions in today's world and society . You'd think we were all still living in the dark ages .

Check out this thread for a brief history of "Easter" :


All religion is bullspit then. You cannot condemn one and not all. That would hypercritical.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by ACTS 2:38


You wrote:

["Are you a sinner or not if you say not, then you believe that your are smarter then God."]

At least I believe, that I'm smarter than you, because I don't put up situations, where only MY options are available.

Quote: ["If you said yes then you have some understanding that God created everything and you must follow his rules."]

True....IF you said 'yes'

Quote: ["That is what free will."]

No, that's being framed in a semantic double-bind.

Quote: ["Your understanding of the Word of God is brought on by others presuppositions."]

Partly true. SOME of us make the daring experiment of thinking ourselves.

Quote: ["To understand the word is not to accept everything men tell you about it but to pray and read and study the original words and their meanings.`"]

So now we get to the point, where YOU (in spite of your own admonitions about not listening to human presuppositions) start giving advices.

Quote: ["Jesus was born mortal, he was the Son of God, his blood was God's blood.
I know this as if a woman's pregnancy is perfect the babies blood never mixes with the woman's and therefore is the fathers."]

What about genes?

Quote: ["Jesus performed the miracles through the Holy Spirit, his death was a sacrifice by his heavenly Father, not his own."]

So we just need to establish the existence of a 'holy spirit' and a 'heavenly father' and you'll have a lot of people convinced.

Quote: ["His Three Days in the Grave was when he descended into Hell to rescue those who accept him as Lord and Savior."]

Is that a result of direct observation, or did you just read it somewhere?

Quote: ["His Resurrection is a testimony to the Victory over Hell and Death as those who believe in Him will never suffer the second death of eternal darkness in Hell, some will never experience the First death of the body by being taken up at the rapture."]

Some will call it a testimony, others will call it a fictive doctrine.

You see.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God .All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not .But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God .

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


Once upon a time there was nothing, a magical force came about, and made everything how it is today, and everything is infinte and I don't have any evidence, but you can't prove me wrong, so believe me. Thanks.

reply to post by SyphonX

Ooo! Can the rest of us do that?! Aw, shucks no!

You never know.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


It really doesn't matter that much,
Or does it?

How long has it been now?

reply to post by IAMIAM


One of the many options on 'original sin' is to say: "Now see what YOU made me do". It really doesn't look to good for an alleged omniscient, omnipotent and all-loving creator to have botched it.

Because there will always be some queurulous types like me, who will ask questions like: "Why don't I have a Rolls Royce, a mansion and a harem?" or (more politically correct): "Why is there general suffering (apart from my lack of a Rolls Royce, a mansion and a harem)"?

And as to the bhakti-thingamy, Buddha actually did it first, and without being religious I do lean towards the school of thought, which claims Jesus to be a buddhist.....Maybe.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


You wrote:

["There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe."]

The same man, whose followers call Jesus for the 'deciever Messiah'?

Originally posted by bogomil
One of the many options on 'original sin' is to say: "Now see what YOU made me do". It really doesn't look to good for an alleged omniscient, omnipotent and all-loving creator to have botched it.

My view of original sin is that it is the very first experience you had in life that taught you to act unlovingly to another. It is the first pain you experienced by another. The rest of the pain you experience in life only adds to it until love becomes something not to be trusted.

The fall of man is nothing more than a metaphor for this idea.

I do hope we are able to get past our pain and return to loving one another and working together soon.

The longer it takes, the more the world breaks.



With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by 5StarOracle

First of all Jesus did sacrifice his life as a man for you.

But according to the bible, he was god incarnated. He dies and then he goes straight to heaven (although if he 'died for our sins' he should have gone and stayed in hell for eternity). How is that in anyway a sacrifice?

When in the garden he did sweat and cry tears of blood as he knew full well what was comming. This is an actual human condition which can only be brought about by extreme stress.

No, it can be brought about by many more factors:

Haemolacria is a symptom of a number of diseases,[1] and may also be indicative of a tumor in the lacrimal apparatus. It is most often provoked by local factors such as bacterial conjunctivitis, environmental damage or injuries

There is a book called "The day Christ died" which goes into great detail to show how he did fullfill the scriptures, whats more it does a nice job of prooving his existance through historical documents.

And that won't be biased
/sarcasm

Your uneducated opinion on such matters can only bring ridicule for yourself. If you can find fault in the teachings of Christ then do so.

Ohh, so my opinion is stupid, because I don't agree with what you're saying? If you'd actually take the time to fully read that article, which I presume you haven't (or maybe you have and are extremely closed minded), you would see that it also raises equally valid points as to why it was not a sacrifice.

Those beyond your capabilities have failed, I know you will indeed die before this happens.

Is that a threat?

So instead of wasting your time and everyone elses for that matter,

It's not really a waste of my time, and and I don't see how it's a waste of anyone else's time either. If it is a so called waste of time, then why even bother replying?

why dont you go learn something. Then the next time you make a post you can base it on FACT & TRUTH...

It's funny you mention the words 'fact' and 'truth' when we are arguing about things that allegedly took place in bible.

Maybe then you will show your worth to others and attain the stars and flags you desire so much.

I don't need to show my worth to anyone, and I don't care really care what people think of me.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

He gave it all up, and that is what makes it a sacrifice. God the Father also sacrificed, offering up His Son, much as Abraham [almost] offered up Isaac. Do not take this Gift lightly, it is precious beyond measure...

But yet again, we come up with the other point: there are plenty more people who have sacrificed more in their lives than Jesus ever would have. Gandhi, for example; or Nelson Mandela who served 27 years in prison for trying to bring an end to apartheid.

As for god making a sacrifice; why would he need to sacrifice himself, to himself to allow him to change a rule, he made himself?

reply to post by ACTS 2:38

Are you a sinner or not if you say not, then you believe that your are smarter then God.

Well, seeing as I don't believe in god, it's highly unlikely that I'm going to believe in sins, is it?

Your understanding of the Word of God is brought on by others presuppositions.
To understand the word is not to accept everything men tell you about it but to pray and read and study the original words and their meanings.`

Kind of funny, when you are doing the exact same by following the bible.

Jesus was born mortal, he was the Son of God, his blood was God's blood.
I know this as if a woman's pregnancy is perfect the babies blood never mixes with the woman's and therefore is the fathers.

That's quite clearly not true. If the baby's and the mothers blood do not mix, then the vital nutrients and oxygen would not get through to the baby and it would miscarry.

Jesus performed the miracles through the Holy Spirit

Again, [citation needed]

His Resurrection is a testimony to the Victory over Hell and Death as those who believe in Him will never suffer the second death of eternal darkness in Hell, some will never experience the First death of the body by being taken up at the rapture.

What a benevolent and loving god; "Believe in me or spend eternity being tortured"

Originally posted by Griffo
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

He gave it all up, and that is what makes it a sacrifice. God the Father also sacrificed, offering up His Son, much as Abraham [almost] offered up Isaac. Do not take this Gift lightly, it is precious beyond measure...

But yet again, we come up with the other point: there are plenty more people who have sacrificed more in their lives than Jesus ever would have. Gandhi, for example; or Nelson Mandela who served 27 years in prison for trying to bring an end to apartheid.

As for god making a sacrifice; why would he need to sacrifice himself, to himself to allow him to change a rule, he made himself?

Do you mention Gandhi and Mandela to give yourself liberal credence? I don't give a fig for Gandhi, for Subhas Bose did the hard work, and Gandhi took the credit. Gandhi was not an admirable person in many ways. Nelson Mandela [again] took credit for, or was given credit for, the end of aparheid, but now that it is over, the blacks are openly discussing the final solution to the White Problem. Yes, extermination. You applaud this?

As for your last paragraph, one, single, perfect human life was acceptable to God. If we identify with that Life, then we, too, are acceptable to God, at least provisionally. After Glorification, as it says somewhere in the New Testament [I'm not a good chapter/verse person], the we will be like Him. Is that possible? I'm watching and waiting to find out...