Stratospheric Aerosol Geo-engineering aka "Chemtrails" DEBUNK THIS !!!!

Originally posted by djcarlosa
reply to post by firepilot

 

The report there dose bring up a good point that if security is as tight as you find at area 51 then it tell's me that they have something to hide.
So your attempt to debunk it is flawed by that part alone.
In the other page he posted there was another item I saw which may help others understand how a chemtrail's project can be kept underwraps take a look
If the chemtrail operations seem too big to keep under wraps, consider the Manhattan Project (which developed the A-bomb). It was equivalent in size to the American automobile industry, employing about 130,000 people! It was kept entirely secret with compartmentalization, a current practice which keeps information divided and separate.

Umm, comparing the Pinal Airpark to Area 51 is silly. Guess what, you can rent an airplane, and do as many touch and go landings at Pinal as you would like. There are lots of photographs of airliner and cargo planes in storage at Pinal, and I recently even saw a show (either Discovery or TLC) where they were out there as a older 747 got scrapped.

Instead of just believing stuff because it falls into your conspiracy, why not ask them for evidence for their claims. Watched that video on Pinal and Evergreen that shows airplanes?

Maybe its just me, but wouldnt your chemtrail conspriacy actually need planes that fly around?? Pinal has airplanes that are stored, or disassembled and scrapped. How do planes missing parts and engines, constitute a chemtrail base..

And if it was, how come non chemmies have staked the place out to film all these aircraft that would need to be taking off and landing? Doesnt the lack of any footage of aircraft activity there be neccessary? Or are they fake invisible UFO planes like Rod Hillerman says.

Originally posted by Toots
. Suppose .....

Why is that supposing all this makes something real?

If you suppose a set of conditions, then you also have a supposed conclusion.

And for those who cling to this silly belief that Pinal is just like Area 51. Lots and lots of photos from there.

Can a chemtrailer explain how aircraft in long term storage, or being disassembled for parts, can make up a secret chemtrail plane fleet?

www.airliners.net...

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

Originally posted by Toots
. Suppose .....

Why is that supposing all this makes something real?

If you suppose a set of conditions, then you also have a supposed conclusion.

No, I do not have a supposed conclusion to that post. It was a hypothetical suppose intended to induce deeper thinking, not conclusive argument.

reply to post by Phage


Re: manhattan project being a secret...

It was also wartime, with a clearly identifiable enemy and pretty much unanimous civil acceptance of the associated secrecy and restrictions.

Plus there was a lot less information technology around - fewer cameras, no mobile phones, no internet....


And yet the Soviets still ahd spies in it......

reply to post by Toots



Sorry - yes I understood that you personally didn't have a conclusion - however the usual result in any conspiracy theory is that whoever does this exercise DOES have end supposed conclusion and promptly trumpets it as fact :9

As a thought exercise it is fine.........as long as (IMO) you use it to identify where you might expect evidence of the "supposed" activities to occur.

Then you go to those places to see if that evidence exists - ie you investigate them. If you find the evidence then that is well and good - case proved. If you do not find the evidence you sought then you need to check whether it your initial supposition is actually valid, and abandon it if, in fact, there is nothing to back it up (which you really should have done in the first place of course.....)

IMO this last step is usually lacking - if there is no evidence, and no actual prospect of evidence, then that is usually seen as evidence of a coverup........

reply to post by Toots


You (and many others) have fallen for this same LIE regarding Evergreen International. Because at one point in time that had some CIA contracts, they are merely a lightning rod for the "chemmies" to focus their inane attention on. (Look into the other "airline run by the CIA" and you will see where the idiot "chemmies" make these stupid "connections". Back in the Vietnam Conflict era....called "Air America". Heck it is so 'top-secret' and 'subversive' they even made a MAIN STEREAM MOTION PICTURE about it!).

When CIA was divesting itself of "Air America", Evergreen Int'l pick up many assets. Hence, the "connection".... Silly "chemmies"!!!


The story, there....a "drunk pilot" bragging? This is just more of the same made up crap from the "chem"-trail hoax machine....they spend great deals of time embellishing their hoaxes.


Evergreen International is a CARGO airline...with one...ONE B-747 converted as a fire fighter/dumper. ONE!!!

The have a fleet of only TEN Boeing 747s, total. TEN!! TEN!!! Oh, and they have more....oh, wait....a total of active airplanes??? ELEVEN!!

Go to this website....it has the air fleets of the WORLD listed:
www.airfleets.net...


Gee....I know that your confirmation BIAS means that you will accept, without question any old crap that you read online, as long as it "supports" "chem"-trails....yeah, nice way to remain ignorant, though. (OR....is there another reason you are pumping and promoting this nonsense?? One of the hoaxers himself, perhaps?????)

And, of course, there is the lie about Pinal County, and Marana Airpark. Gee.....did no one who "believers" in "chem"-trails bother to actually research, and verify these stories....to check their veracity??

Here is a guy, in a private airplane....small piston engined....from just three years ago, flying low over the runway at Pinal Airpark. "Area 51" security MY ARSE!!!




Near Tucson, in the same general vicinity:



(WHY NOT follow the links, and watch ALL FOUR parts???)

There are many other "boneyards"...usually in deserts, for better long-term preservation (dry atmosphere). Here, a poignant "final flight" for an American Airlines MD-80. I have many thousands of hours in the MD-80/DC-9 (not at AAL) ...as well as in many of the types you see parked, there....awaiting the scrapyard. In fact, there are a few Boeing 737-300s I flew there too, as well (surprised me, hard to realize they'd reached their life limits already...makes me feel old.... ):

Originally posted by weedwhacker
[ In fact, there are a few Boeing 737-300s I flew there too, as well (surprised me, hard to realize they'd reached their life limits already...makes me feel old....

):

Pfftt....youngster.......I thought I was getting old when -300's became the "Classics" in place of -200's

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

Originally posted by weedwhacker
[ In fact, there are a few Boeing 737-300s I flew there too, as well (surprised me, hard to realize they'd reached their life limits already...makes me feel old....

):

Pfftt....youngster.......I thought I was getting old when -300's became the "Classics" in place of -200's

Bah, I have time in a DC-4 and DC-7

Originally posted by firepilot

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

Originally posted by weedwhacker
[ In fact, there are a few Boeing 737-300s I flew there too, as well (surprised me, hard to realize they'd reached their life limits already...makes me feel old....

):

Pfftt....youngster.......I thought I was getting old when -300's became the "Classics" in place of -200's

Bah, I have time in a DC-4 and DC-7

The first a/c I worked on was a DC3 that was still in airforce service

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by Toots

 

Gee....I know that your confirmation BIAS means that you will accept, without question any old crap that you read online, as long as it "supports" "chem"-trails....yeah, nice way to remain ignorant, though. (OR....is there another reason you are pumping and promoting this nonsense?? One of the hoaxers himself, perhaps?????)

edit on 21 March 2011 by weedwhacker because: (no reason given)

Gee, so you "know" that I have a confirmation bias? Really??!! Well, you DON'T know me, because I don't have a confirmation bias. But hey, maybe you suffer from a normalcy bias or closed-mindedness. I'm not here to spew crap, but I DO still have an OPEN mind concerning many aspects of the chemtrail "hoax". I only know what MY eyes see, and it does not conform to your definition of contrails. Not even close. And btw, did you even catch that my post was mostly "tongue in cheek?" Maybe in the next life you can get a PhD in proctology. Good luck. Over and out.

Originally posted by Toots

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by Toots

 

Gee....I know that your confirmation BIAS means that you will accept, without question any old crap that you read online, as long as it "supports" "chem"-trails....yeah, nice way to remain ignorant, though. (OR....is there another reason you are pumping and promoting this nonsense?? One of the hoaxers himself, perhaps?????)

Gee, so you "know" that I have a confirmation bias? Really??!!

Because everyone has.

Well, you DON'T know me, because I don't have a confirmation bias.

then you are the only person in the world who does not - congratulations.

Confirmation bias is a perfectly normal characteristic of humanity - however it takes work to carve through it.

But hey, maybe you suffer from a normalcy bias or closed-mindedness. I'm not here to spew crap, but I DO still have an OPEN mind concerning many aspects of the chemtrail "hoax". I only know what MY eyes see, and it does not conform to your definition of contrails. Not even close.

so which aspects of the "chemtrail hoax" is it that you have an open mind for, of not for the scientific description of contrails?

reply to post by Toots


It's hard, isn't it?

What I posted showed, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the information you fell for was wrong. You either wanted to believe it so strongly that you turned off your critical thinking, and closed your credulous eyes.

The claims, every one of them, regarding Evergreen International and "CIA 'chem'-trail operations" (or, whatever innuendos are being implied) are bogus. Any amount of proper research will disclose this simple fact.

I have begun to wonder, in the course of these many, many, many "chem"-trail threads if, indeed the actual "agents" ( a term and accusation tossed about wildly at the ones who bring logic and reason to this topic ) aren't, instead, the ones who START these threads, and spend so much time ignoring the science, and refusing to properly learn the facts....

....because, the continued blatant DIS-informaiton, coming from the "chem"-trail faithful, indicates that that many normally intelligent people cannot be so deluded, for so long....in light of the proper evidence shown.


"There are three types of 'chem'-trail believers: The confused; The paranoid; And, the profiteer".

(Anon.)

I think it would be interesting to attempt to categorize quite a few, here......and spot the intentional 'profiteers'....

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by Toots

 

It's hard, isn't it?

What I posted showed, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the information you fell for was wrong. You either wanted to believe it so strongly that you turned off your critical thinking, and closed your credulous eyes.

The claims, every one of them, regarding Evergreen International and "CIA 'chem'-trail operations" (or, whatever innuendos are being implied) are bogus. Any amount of proper research will disclose this simple fact.

I have begun to wonder, in the course of these many, many, many "chem"-trail threads if, indeed the actual "agents" ( a term and accusation tossed about wildly at the ones who bring logic and reason to this topic ) aren't, instead, the ones who START these threads, and spend so much time ignoring the science, and refusing to properly learn the facts....

....because, the continued blatant DIS-informaiton, coming from the "chem"-trail faithful, indicates that that many normally intelligent people cannot be so deluded, for so long....in light of the proper evidence shown.


"There are three types of 'chem'-trail believers: The confused; The paranoid; And, the profiteer".

(Anon.)

I think it would be interesting to attempt to categorize quite a few, here......and spot the intentional 'profiteers'....

Nothing you have posted proves anything beyond a shadow of a doubt. You have no idea (unless you work for the CIA) what the CIA are doing or who they contract or what they contract for.

You have no idea ( unless you work for Evergreen Air ) what private contracts they have, what private projects they are under taking or anything else they do that they choose not to openly disclose.

You keep claiming how your evidence is proper, well that is a matter of opinion and a biased one at that. You haven't put your "proper" evidence in a proper place for it to be examined properly by the proper people.

"Their are three types of dis info people....people who are uninformed and/or unintelligent, people with personal interest invested and people who work for companies and Governments involved."
MathiasAndrew

There is no blatant dis information from chemtrailers. We are all just trying to hypothesize, speculate, investigate, share info, learn the truth and many other things with good intentions to inform and protect our selves from people that disregard the rights of others and do not acquire proper informed consent when conducting experiments at our expense.

Please show me who you think is a chemtrailer profiteer on ATS or in this thread.

Originally posted by MathiasAndrew
[
There is no blatant dis information from chemtrailers. We are all just trying to hypothesize, speculate,

and then from that you state conclusions as if they were fact - that is disinfo right there.

investigate, share info, learn the truth

those are good things - mixing it all up with the 1st 2 is the problem IMO.

and many other things with good intentions to inform and protect our selves from people that disregard the rights of others and do not acquire proper informed consent when conducting experiments at our expense.

your words here make an implicit claim that something _IS_ happening - again that is disinfo - leaping to a conclusion when there simply is no evidence to suport it.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

your words here make an implicit claim that something _IS_ happening - again that is disinfo - leaping to a conclusion when there simply is no evidence to suport it.

My words make no implicit claim that it is happening in this case. But since there is proof that it has happened in the past. I have a right to be highly suspicious that it is happening again in this case.

reply to post by MathiasAndrew

We are all just trying to..........protect our selves from people that disregard the rights of others and do not acquire proper informed consent when conducting experiments at our expense

Yes they do - that section says that there's something to be protected against in the first case.

And as I have always said,by all means be suspicious - hell I WORK for a Govt & I'm suspicious of "them"!

But suspicion is not evidence, and does not mean something IS happening - it means be means keep an eye out - be prepared in case you do find somethign that is happening - not leap to unsupported conclusions.

Unfortunately the last step is what actually happens all too often

8 Traits of The Disinformationalist: What to Look For

Originally posted by lemmehowdt

 

Have read the entire thread up to this point - let's look at what we know and don't know. We know that some planes leave short trails called comtrails and others leave long trails that turn into clouds called chemtrails. We know that we have chemistry data from both air and water samples that have anomalous readings for barium, aluminum and strontium. We know that there is a whole field of science called geo-engineering. Is there an MSDS on the field?

There is a lot going on - the sun has been particularly active in sending out cosmic radiation. There are reports that we have moved into a cosmic cloud. The pace of life makes it seem that time is speeding up. 2012 is only a year away. The tensions are rising, because this topic is shrinking at some of the basics of the belief system. It is all breaking down and we are arguing semantics.

I agreed to be on ATS radio to talk about the chemistry of the alleged chemtrails. If you watched the movie, i tried to explain the toxicology of the materials in question there. The word expert is made of two parts - ex means former and we all know what a spurt is. I try to think in all fields using chemistry as a basis. If anyone on this thread wants to formulate good questions - we can address them live on air and really push the state of the myth forward.

Don't blindly trust the scientists. Think the answers to the questions through for yourself - in your personal world view. Does it all add up? What is it that we don't know. BTW - the holographic projection idea is a new spin to me - it really sounds like a viable alternative - how many more can we come up with?

Anyone want to help a chemist debunk all of chemistry?

I wanted to quote the posts made by the Dr. Lenny Thyme. I did not know it at the time but he is the chemist in the documentary "What in the World are they Spraying". He would possibly be (IMO) the best person and the most credible scientist we have available to answer some of the scientific questions involving the creation of normal cirrus clouds and the man made cirrus clouds. Including the chemistry involved. I will be quoting the rest of his posts found in this thread and the other threads he commented in. I hope that we can get him to re join this conversation. I regret that I was too wrapped up with all the debunkers questions when he originally posted these comments.

Originally posted by lemmehowdt

reply to post by firepilot
the samples that had excessive aluminum, barium and strontium were snow melt from the top of Mt. Shasta. All three elements should not be in the atmosphere - the question is really where did it come from. I'm okay with it not being sprayed from chemtrails as long as there is an alternative viable explanation. Occam's Razor does not always hold, but generally the simplest explanation is the correct one. They are spraying - the question is to what end. I agree with the prior poster that questions how they are breathing the same air if they are willfully poisoning us - very good question. But then - why does Monsanto need a patent for aluminum resistant seeds?

reply to post by Essan

 

awesome paper. this demonstrates that they were spraying chemtrails back in the 60's. who sprayed what? what was the composition? Maybe we think we know more than we really know. Did they also have crop circles back in the 60's?