Why hasn't the US made a formal apology to the Native Americans?

reply to post by apacheman


I, nor anyone else said you do belong to us. your free to leave, and come as you wish. your free to get educated, vote, etc. and on the reservations you even freer than I am. as, you can can create your our systems. how
you use those rights are up to you.

reply to post by Ghostinshell


Doubt it all you like.

It's still true.

Go read the original documents, as I have done, and you will be unable to hold that doubt. Curtailed expansion was one of the primary reasons they fought. If the Americans had lost, the continent would most likely have been treated like and developed in a similar manner to India.

But the Americans differed from the English in being more xenophobic and openly genocidal; they practiced total warfare wherever and whenever they found Indians, sparing not the old, the young, or the infirm. Whether the were friendly or not, .accomodating or not, eventually a critical mass of settlers was reached and when it did, the natives were killed and the survivors driven out.

reply to post by Ghostinshell


What we are not free to do is to control our own resources, selling to whom we please. We must ask permission from the BIA in most cases, and in some have no say whatsoever, contracts being negotiated on our behalf, but not to our benefit.

We have no seats in the United Nations to let our voices be heard.

We cannot punish a non-tribal lawbreaker in our own courts: they can only try people of their own tribe.

We are not allowed full control of our own tribal monies.

We cannot invite foreign investment.

Anything can be taken from us at the whim of the Congress.

We are not permitted to control our own borders.

We are not free.

reply to post by apacheman


Did you also see that I posted I have Creek Indian and Cherokee ancestry? 1/4 Creek and 1/3 Cherokee. As I said in earlier post..I had heard it..just like you ..all the the nasty slurs and nick names I was given growing up. My facial features and skin color were definitely Indian, so was my Mom's. Only thing different was I inherited auburn hair from the Irish.side.!!! Now how do you think I felt? Growing up and having kids say ..you don't look like us..! I
didn't have it easy either.
From you people!!! you say...I am still one of you, but I am also of the present.
What do you expect in the next few months? One of my Indian friends said it this way... The government lied to us years ago and I expect the same in the future.

reply to post by apacheman


I am pretty sure, there where allot of reasons for many people. weather or the "expansionist" reasons where on the table, or not who knows. its possible....

reply to post by superman2012


The reason I spoke about gypsies is that they are a marginalised group in Europe, they live on reservations, they experience discrimination. They are also in a position of not being able to hide who they are by nature of the way they look - ie they can be recognised. Its much easier is it not, to look like everybody else and to carry the burden of what happened in far away countries. In case you didn't understand, I'm talking about living on the land which was taken from your ancestors alongside the relatives of your oppressors. Its easier to be enlightened if you are going to talk about your families past in Europe. Good luck with even trying to get 'free crap, from Europe when you live in Canada btw! My family was also wiped out in Europe, but people don't know / suspect my history and make judgements just by looking at me. Nor am I the slightest bit interested talking about my suffering or how hard I work yada yada yada. For the record you won't find me whining about taxes either.

As I stated I couldn't care less about your obsession with self respect, or rather whether you judge that other people have self respect or not. It does not interest me, although I know that certain people tend to repeat meaningless phrases like that, as if it justifies looking down on other people. I hope that is not the case with you.

I thought that apachemans views was only one person's. I didn't realise that if one native american had a view that meant the whole collective believes in the same thing! Silly me.

So now you took issue with my views and you are upset as I don't share them, because I think you attempt to relativise the effects of what happened to native americans in the past and to some extent the continuing racism they experience today. BTW I only stated my opinion and was not responding to a comment, as you claimed. You responded to my comment.

I have a question - what do you mean by 'they have more opportunities to become better people than any other race in this country?'. Are you saying they have more opportunities than white people? Are you saying they have more opportunities than black people? I don't understand what is your definition of 'better people' is either. Are you talking about being nice or having a job?

You have pointed out your own suffering, high moral standards, hard work ethnic, not wanting free stuff etc. With respect, this thread isn't about you so you will also forgive me if I don't read every word you have written here and have used what you have written to me as a basis for my replies to you. At the very least even if your view is closer to the truth than mine is, you should wonder why it is that it is not the issue, rather your personal judgements / situation, which is the overriding impression you have made upon me so far.

reply to post by apacheman


Not to be mean, but when someone is conquered that no longer own anything except what the new conquerors
deem. I am not saying your a conquered people. I am saying that, the US is now the rule of LAW in north America
(lower 48) .

and hoping, the US gov, will one day out of the kindness of its hart give it all back. just anit Gonna happen. because
the mess of legal treaty's, and open war on both sides makes it an utter mess. and noone wants to open that can of worms.... believe me....

reply to post by apacheman


Well the Indian nations are free to go to war with the U.S. again if they want to. Maybe we should declare you all terrorists and invade the reservations.

You have more rights on the reservations than American Citizens do! You can start any business that you want; you can create any education system that you want. You can even make civil rights laws of your own. And yet still you blame the white man for it all. What the heck! I guess the Indians are no better than the other minorities who want everyone else to fix their problems. I haven't seen Indians going around with their headdresses hanging off their tail ends yet, but give it a few months and perhaps we will. How about some Indian ghetto rap, yeah, it’s time that you whined about the entire Indian problem through ghetto rap music, wearing your headdresses down to your crotch, and speaking EuNavohonics. Hell let’s make everyone speak Navaho in America right?

You have your own land, mostly your own laws, and you whine, whine, whine, like there is no tomorrow. It’s your fault that the pinnacle of Indian culture is a fire water dealing, gambling casino, not mine. Your just mad at your fellow Indians and are choosing to take it out of everyone else. Guess what, the Indians are to blame for their problems, not me or the next guy.

Do you see me going around claiming that it’s the Indians fault that our troops are in Iraq! Of course not, so stop blaming the U.S. for all your Indian problems. Take some friggen responsibility you hand out crazed liberal Indian wannabe. I’ve never seen an internet connection in a teepee. That must be a peace pipe computer that you’re typing on right? Ha! Don’t get on the white man’s internet, using the white man’s computer, to whine about how bad the Indians have let themselves become.

You know, you can start a software company on the reservation if you want to. You can start a computer chip plant on the reservation if you want to. But no, you’re just going to sit there and whine that all your problems are because of other people instead of yourselves. Why am I not surprised.

reply to post by Hot_Wings


good points, with the very low cost of living on reservations why dont they invite manufacturing and other plants?

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by ellieN

 

Dwell in the past?

I live in the present and desire strongly free and independent Indian Nations.

What can't you people get about that?

We want our freedom from you.

We don't belong to the US, we are not yours to dictate to.

Like any other group on the planet, we want our freedom.

Can you hear me yet?

What gives you or the US the right to hold us in subjugation, to claim our resources, to dictate how we raise our children?

The past is done and gone, but that doesn't mean we should disappear because we're inconvenient to you.

Don't want to support us?

Fine, then get the hell off our lands: what you pay, you pay as rent.

How can Americans claim to stand for freedom and democracy when they deny it to those they stole it from?

We'll do just fine without you: much of the coal, uranium, timber and rare earth resources are on our lands, i.e., within current reservation boundaries. We can restore the bison herds and share them as we did of old.

When will we be free?

We would prefer not to have to fight you for it, but we've been patient for over a hundred years, waiting for you to fulfill the promise of our freedom when we were ready for it. Well, we are, and we grow less patient by the day.

Why do you refuse?

Free us.

Let us negotiate the new boundaries and rules, and live side by side in peace.

But as different peoples with different ways from yours.

We are not you, and have no desire to be ersatz yous. We desire the freedom to walk our own paths, make our own mistakes, and solve our problems in our own ways.

Can you hear me yet?

You speak of freedom from us? Yet you continue to take anything that is offered to you? As far as freedom and democracy stand, get off the effin reserves if they are soo bad, stop taking gov't handouts, start becoming a productive member of society! It drives me to the point of insanity when people complain about something but then go ahead and take full advantage of anything offered to them.

It isn't your lands anymore. It was taken by a technologically advanced race of people...happens all the time. As far as getting back to mother nature and the mother earth bullcrap, all the uranium, timber and other resources that is on "your land" ( I thought Indians were against and didn't believe in land ownership?) is being pulled out of the land by the very corporations that you accept money from and that you hate. Without them, you think you would be able to crack this market?!? You have the means to do it? The know how? Don't think so. You are perfectly happy to let us "white people" rape the land and take all we can from it as long as you get a cut. It's not my fault people I'm not even related to came over here and killed a bunch of you people. Isn't Apache another Indian term for enemy? Doesn't that seem to suggest that you were not all tree hugging, people loving, peaceful people?

As far as freeing you...come join us...we DO welcome you with welcome arms...it is your people that decide to stay on reserves and complain about everything. SHOW ME ONE (1) SOURCE WHERE PEOPLE ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT INDIANS JOINING SOCIETY. I triple dog dare you.

reply to post by ellieN


Apologies.

My fault for slipping into addressing the broader you, that set of folks who say: it's all in the past, move on, forget, assimilate, rather than the individual person you are.

I've heard that all my life and like hearing it less the older I get.

And I confess, to hear it from Native Americans themselves chills my heart.

But it steels my resolve to hold true to what my grandmother and my mother told me to remember and never, ever forget:

"Remember always you are Chiricahua Apache; remember that your grandmother was born free; never forget the betrayal, never forget your freedom, never rest until your people are free again."

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by Ghostinshell

 

What we are not free to do is to control our own resources, selling to whom we please. We must ask permission from the BIA in most cases, and in some have no say whatsoever, contracts being negotiated on our behalf, but not to our benefit.

We have no seats in the United Nations to let our voices be heard.

We cannot punish a non-tribal lawbreaker in our own courts: they can only try people of their own tribe.

We are not allowed full control of our own tribal monies.

We cannot invite foreign investment.

Anything can be taken from us at the whim of the Congress.

We are not permitted to control our own borders.

We are not free.

wow...sounds just like my family....which is what you are. A family. What foreign investment do you want? I thought you said you didn't want money or want material possessions before!? As far as your sharing circle or court is concerned, if it is anything like Indian court in Canada...it is a joke. Sentencing circle is probably the stupidest thing I have heard of. A man in Canada was drunk, violating his parole, went to the neighbours and left the door open...his two youngest followed him out in -40 weather...froze to death and died. I think he got less than two years for this. Is that justice? No.

Getting off the subject here; what exactly are you wanting in your reserve that you can't accomplish yourself. Are you asking for the white man's help? Not sure exactly what your comment was asking. All of what you said applies to every individual as well.

Tribal monies are misspent here in Canada, if it is anything down there like it is here, than it will require a lot of gov't regulations...for you to spend more gov't money.

I guess what I am asking for is for you to clarify what exactly you want that you cannot accomplish by yourselves as a people.

reply to post by apacheman


you where born free, you where not born a slave or born in prison. you are free, to leave, to come, to get educated
to create.....

is that not free?

reply to post by Hot_Wings


Have you any idea of how childishly insulting, racist, ignorant, and stereotyped your post is?

I must admit you managed to hit just about every ignorant stereotype there is.

I don't want a handout and neither do most other Indians. What the government pays is less than what is owed by treaty.

dictionary.reference.com...

trea·ty –noun, plural -ties.

1. a formal agreement between two or more states in reference to peace, alliance, commerce, or other international relations.

2. the formal document embodying such an international agreement.

Our side of the deal was to cede land to you as long as you replaced the sustenance we derived from it at whatever level was necessary to support our population.

So if you want to renegotiate, fine by me: don't pay rent, but then you must leave.

And if we can't make you leave, then we can't control our own borders, and we're not free.

But if the US were to commit the error of using massive violence against the tribes, it would be committing suicide.

In that case, a new Indian War would last about three or four weeks and the US would lose: it is far more fragile than you might think.

reply to post by apacheman


please respond to my comment, I have posted a couple intended for you and you seem to just pick up the most ignorant ones and run with that.

I hold my breath

reply to post by apacheman


so, your ok with welfare as long as it benefits you? got it...

and, I assume your Apache since that's in your name. and, apache where not exactly known for being diplomatic
in fact they managed to anger both the US and Mexico....

impurplehawk.com...

so, they "raided" when they need something they didnt have. and thats supposed to make Mexico and the US like them?

like I said *always* more to the story.

so, you want to be free to raid? raid what? phoenix?

reply to post by superman2012


First, remember that the tribes were and are sovereign nations, although their sovereignty is honored more in the breach than the observance.

Then realize that no tribe on this continent is free to say who can enter its borders, no one (or very few) recognize their passports. No tribe is free to enter into a mutual economic trade package with, say, Germany or China without the express permission of the country they "belong" to: Canada or the US.

They don't have the power to define their own membership, but must meet criteria imposed by others.

The lands that were legally defined as ours by the US government have consistently been encroached upon and stolen by unscrupulous Americans aided by biased and corrupt courts. We want them back because they are ours: squatting on them doesn't give you title.

Tell me: why doesn't anyone tell the Palestinians to just forget about it and quit dwelling in the past? After all, 1948 was a lot longer ago than the 1970's sterilization program that everyone wants us to forget about. Sorry, but I knew/know some of the victims of that atrocity personally, and I'll neither forget nor forgive.

On the other side, why are the Jews admired for holding their culture through thousands of years of exile, admired for never forgetting who they were and who they are?

I want my people to be free to choose their own friends, have representation in the international community, be free to choose paths based upon what is best for them, not on what is best for American interests.

I mean really, what part of free and independent of the US don't you get?

Another thing we want:

The power to try and punish Americans who break our laws in our courts and with our punishments, the same as any other sovereign nation.

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by superman2012

 

First, remember that the tribes were and are sovereign nations, although their sovereignty is honored more in the breach than the observance.

Then realize that no tribe on this continent is free to say who can enter its borders, no one (or very few) recognize their passports. No tribe is free to enter into a mutual economic trade package with, say, Germany or China without the express permission of the country they "belong" to: Canada or the US.

They don't have the power to define their own membership, but must meet criteria imposed by others.

The lands that were legally defined as ours by the US government have consistently been encroached upon and stolen by unscrupulous Americans aided by biased and corrupt courts. We want them back because they are ours: squatting on them doesn't give you title.

Tell me: why doesn't anyone tell the Palestinians to just forget about it and quit dwelling in the past? After all, 1948 was a lot longer ago than the 1970's sterilization program that everyone wants us to forget about. Sorry, but I knew/know some of the victims of that atrocity personally, and I'll neither forget nor forgive.

On the other side, why are the Jews admired for holding their culture through thousands of years of exile, admired for never forgetting who they were and who they are?

I want my people to be free to choose their own friends, have representation in the international community, be free to choose paths based upon what is best for them, not on what is best for American interests.

I mean really, what part of free and independent of the US don't you get?

I guess the part of free and independent of the US that I don't get is that you signed over all your rights. You get all the priviledges of being an American citizen without having to pay everything associated with it. Do you allow the corporations (oil) into the reserves or do they come charging in? No, you sign deals with them. My question is, if Indians are so against anyone owning land and saying it isn't possible, why do you demand ownership. You were not born indentured, you have made yourself that way. Get off the reserves while still maintaining your CORE beliefs. Like I said before, you were beaten by a technologically advanced race, happens all the time. Just be glad they didn't massacre (and yes it was) all of your people. That being said, Apache is another Indian term for enemy so it seems you had your own problems anyways. Took what you want when you needed it. How American of the Indians!!

Before you judge and claim that you are enslaved to America, realize the potential you have, the opportunities you have in school, housing, even life! You were born free and if you are going to keep yourself in the past than you are doomed to be miserable the rest of your life.

I hope you get past all the hate in your life.

edit: I never brought up the Palestinians, we are talking about America.

reply to post by apacheman


last treaty with the apache:
www.accessgenealogy.com...

this is the good part:

/begin quote
They agree, in the same manner, to keep the peace toward the whites and all other persons under the jurisdiction of the United States, and to do and perform all other things enjoined upon said tribes by the provisions of said treaty; and they hereby give up and forever relinquish to the United States all rights, privileges, and grants now vested in them, or intended to be transferred to them, by the treaty between the United States and the Cheyenne and Arapahoe tribes of Indians, concluded at the camp on the Little Arkansas River, in the State of Kansas, on the fourteenth day of October, one thousand eight hundred and sixty-five, and also by the supplementary treaty, concluded at the same place on the seventeenth day of the same month, between the United States, of the one part, and the Cheyenne, Arapahoe, and Apache tribes, of the other part.


/end quote:

reply to post by apacheman


I figured that if I goaded your hand-out seeking, liberal, Indian, terrorist mind long enough then you would state your intentions for war and the foolish belief that you would win it. Ha Ha Ha, what a friggen joke. Our troops have invaded every known dictator, third-world looser in modern history and have wiped them off the face of the planet each and every time. So, no, you wouldn’t stand a chance against even a single aircraft carrier, let alone an entire military. Hell, civilians alone could destroy the reservations without the military even lifting a finger to get involved there, Kimosoabe.

But this reality is not why I goaded you. It was to show the deep resentment that you and many entitlement Indians, blacks, and other minorities show towards “The White Man” (a racist term that you had no problem throwing about at your leisure I might add). Hatred and war is in your heart and your comments show it. You’re nothing but a terrorist in hiding, waiting for your chance to attack America like all your other Indian cultist buddies.

Peace Pipe my kiester, you're on the war path. Give me your gold or I’ll scalp you white man, why don’t you just say that instead, you little terrorist? The Indians are not the peacefull, friendly, tree huggers they pretend to be. Hell no, they are the same blood thirsty, tribal savages they always used to be. They have just been better at hiding it. What do you think the “remembrance” of their culture is all about? It’s about continuing their war against America, make no mistake about it.

You’ve heard his declaration of war! Give them nothing, nothing at all! Cast not your pearls before swine. You will never get an apology from me red skin. Instead, I will be one of the first to sign up in the war against Indian Terrorists if that’s what you tribal’s want.