Beijing warns US on Taiwan arms

Yeah... I'd prefer there not be a US/Taiwan/S. Korea/Japan vs. China/N. Korea/Russia war -- ever. But then, what do we do to keep peace between China and Taiwan until they can peaceably settle their differences? China "warning" the US is one thing, but how about China's periodic threats to invade Taiwan? Is that just saber-rattling?

Originally posted by ThunderCloud
but how about China's periodic threats to invade Taiwan? Is that just saber-rattling?

As I said in a previous post. China's threats to invade Taiwan are much like Bob Dole threatening to rape you without his viagra. They want the Taiwanese economy, and they lack the ability to invade. They can destroy Taiwan, but that would not be in anybodies interests.

Originally posted by FredT
As I said in a previous post. China's threats to invade Taiwan are much like Bob Dole threatening to rape you without his viagra. They want the Taiwanese economy, and they lack the ability to invade. They can destroy Taiwan, but that would not be in anybodies interests.

Why US is now sending 7 Carrier group to West Pacific? China can easily crash Taiwan defense, without US intervention.

Originally posted by blobby
unless we deploy our secret weapons lol

McDonalds is already there... We are fattening them up...

Our weapon is deployed everywhere!
bwa ha ha

It's all politics............

Originally posted by Justmytype
I'd be preparing to move my overseas plants from China to India


Really think about it, Our farmers are paid to not grow but we have starving families,

They forgot to tell me about this, where do I sign up!!! This country has deceided that they can buy food from other countries cheaper than can be produced here. These other countries use chemicals that have been banned here for years, use human waste for fertilizer and they get labor for $1-$3/day and we can't compete with that. We do grow the highest quality and safest food in the world. It makes me mad when I go into a grocery store and see the food prices, knowing what we are paid for what we produce. Right now watermelon farmers are getting $.01-$.02/lb. for seedless watermelons if they can sell them. What is the price in the stores? What happens when you put the farmers out of business then these other countries decide that they don't want to sell us food? Do you really want people that hate us to have access to our food? Everything else, I'm behind you 100%.

Originally posted by zcheng
Why US is now sending 7 Carrier group to West Pacific? China can easily crash Taiwan defense, without US intervention.

What is your point? If this is another attempt to go on about the glory of the Chinese military, speaking for myself, I have had my fill. The US carrier groups are in all likelyhood there to send a message to Bejing, "you mess with the bean, you have to mess with the burrito"

Originally posted by FredT
"you mess with the bean, you have to mess with the burrito"

I've got to remember that! That's hilarious!

Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by zcheng
Why US is now sending 7 Carrier group to West Pacific? China can easily crash Taiwan defense, without US intervention.

What is your point? If this is another attempt to go on about the glory of the Chinese military, speaking for myself, I have had my fill. The US carrier groups are in all likelyhood there to send a message to Bejing, "you mess with the bean, you have to mess with the burrito"

That is because you said that Taiwan forces alone can ward off the attack of PLA in reunification war. I just want you know that is not the case.

US intervention there will carry the risk to destroy both China and US.

Zcheng he meant that Taiwan could repel an invasion or attempted invasion by the Chinese army cuz its not that good that is why china is worried cuz if we sell arms to Taiwan then the Chinese aren't sure if they can defeat Taiwan backed by the US. But china wont attack to destroy taiwan cuz then its no good to them.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Zcheng he meant that Taiwan could repel an invasion or attempted invasion by the Chinese army cuz its not that good that is why china is worried cuz if we sell arms to Taiwan then the Chinese aren't sure if they can defeat Taiwan backed by the US. But china wont attack to destroy taiwan cuz then its no good to them.

Wow Westpoint, you must really think China is a pushover. Now they can't take Taiwan? Taiwan has a life expectancy of about 2 weeks without American support.

Now... I believe it was Zcheng who said China could take out our carriers with cruise missiles. Don't be so sure. There is an old and well known glitch in the defensive systems of US vessels, whereby when presented with too many targets the guns simply couldn't choose, and the targeting system might try to reboot. Considering that Tom Clancy included it in Red Storm Rising over 20 years ago, I can only hope, (and really assume) that the US Navy has corrected the matter. An aircraft carrier is a relatively small target to be defended, and almost certainly could be. Furthermore, you have to consider that the first operations by our B-2s, F-117s, and Tomahawks would be targeting the greatest threat- probably cruise missiles. This means that the danger would be quickly ended. 1 or 2 carriers may be possible to destroy, but the combined defensive power of 7 of them, combined with any systems which may exist to interfere with the guidance of enemy missiles (even North Korea has this ability) means that it is unlikely that an American fleet can be easily destroyed with cruise missiles. If it were possible, these weapons would quickly proliferate throughout the world, and it would have been impossible to use aircraft carriers even against Iraq.
If there were any danger to our fleet, the obvious answer would be to transfer our carrier aircraft into improvised airfields in Japan and Taiwan and operate from land. China's primary strength is the ability to defend within its borders. The American technological edge, as long as the terrain and circumstances are right, the American technological edge ensures a reasonable level of security and control in the air and sea.


As for a total war- with or without nukes- We'd definately be looking at the end of the American and Chinese governments as we know them today, and Japan would probably be almost forced to militarize and assume greater control of the pacific- perhaps including Taiwan and parts of China- likely with UN approval and support. America would be broke and probably be more than a little out with Canada (I see Canada and America headed in very opposite directions when it comes to their attitude and respect for the UN and EU. (I honestly think Canada may one day attempt to align itself in some way with the EU, especially quebec if it ever manages to break away). All the same, I figure America would be able to resist foreign interference and just be wretchedly screwed up for a while until some recovery was made.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Wow Westpoint, you must really think China is a pushover. Now they can't take Taiwan? Taiwan has a life expectancy of about 2 weeks without American support.

Without US support, China can take Taiwan in about a week. You have to factor in the fact that not many members in the GUO Jun (National Army) want to fight the PLA, and would surrender at the chance. Although there maybe over 50% people claim themselve as Taiwanese not Chinese, if China allow then to go independent. If facing real war or in the war, the majority would prefer to call themselve as Taiwanese and Chinese as well.

Now... I believe it was Zcheng who said China could take out our carriers with cruise missiles.

The Tomehawk cuise missiles from US is relatively low speed, is subsonic. Due to their low speed, it is quite easy to fend them as a carrier group.

The ones that I think post the greatest danger are those supersonic missiles and intermediate ballistic missiles. They maybe lauched from Subs or inland mobile launch vehicles. Some of these missiles may reach speed 5 Mach, they can fly high in flight, and fly low when approaching target. They may even travel like a snake. If 10 missiles are launched from 10 different locations, and if Carrier can fend off 9, 1 missile can still cripple or even sink the carrier.

Furthermore, you have to consider that the first operations by our B-2s, F-117s, and Tomahawks would be targeting the greatest threat- probably cruise missiles. This means that the danger would be quickly ended.

Not so. Do you remember that even F-117 was shot down by Serbia forces? China, I believe, has some measure to detect these stealth planes. Of course, no one is certain. Very likely, we will find out only in the war. I believe B-2 is sub sonic? If it is detected, its life is finished. How much does one of them cost? 1 Billion?

1 or 2 carriers may be possible to destroy, but the combined defensive power of 7 of them, combined with any systems which may exist to interfere with the guidance of enemy missiles (even North Korea has this ability) means that it is unlikely that an American fleet can be easily destroyed with cruise missiles.

If missile can take out a carrier, 7 carrier did not change much of the equation. China has the ability to build many more missiles quickly, especially those do not need to reach continental USA.

If there were any danger to our fleet, the obvious answer would be to transfer our carrier aircraft into improvised airfields in Japan and Taiwan and operate from land.

This will be dumbest choose. Those airfields that is used to attack Chinese forces will be taken out first. In the first wave, those airfield in Taiwan will be attacked and destroyed, that is why they are now practicing to take off and land on the road in East side of Taiwan island. If Japan is assisting US and allow US planes to use Japanese airfield, those will be the second wave of attack. Okinawa will be the primary target. If Japan join the fight, China will revenge for what they have done at least since 1937.

If Japan also declares all-out war, Japan will be nuked at the first opportunity, much easier than reaching USA. I believe Japan will have a hard choice to make.

China do not want to challenge US dominance around the world. But if US disregard Chinese core strategic interest like Taiwan issue, China will have to challenge US in anyone China can.

The declared policy of China is "Peaceful Rise". I guess if US pushes China to the rock bottom on Taiwan issue, China will have no choice but follow "Armed Rise".

As for a total war- with or without nukes- We'd definately be looking at the end of the American and Chinese governments as we know them today, and Japan would probably be almost forced to militarize and assume greater control of the pacific- perhaps including Taiwan and parts of China- likely with UN approval and support. America would be broke and probably be more than a little out with Canada.

For all-out war, one thing is certain: Japan will be completely destroyed.
What not certain is the degree of destruction of China and US. One advantage of China is the mountaneous terrain. The advantage of US is its large number of nukes, and advanced delivery system. The difference will be whether it is 10%, 20%, or 30% left.

Do not push China too hard. Let US and China be friends, not enemy.

Originally posted by zcheng
Without US support, China can take Taiwan in about a week

You are way overestimating you military. You could destroy the island in a week not take it intact.

The ones that I think post the greatest danger are those supersonic missiles and intermediate ballistic missiles. They maybe lauched from Subs or inland mobile launch vehicles. Some of these missiles may reach speed 5 Mach, they can fly high in flight,

THe american military is researching hypersonic missiles (mach 5+) I doubt seriously that the chinnese have them. Let me tell you one word: Standoff. Do you think seriously that the CBG are going to sit off of your shores and allow you to launce sunburn etc at them. No they will be way off shore. That is the whole point of power projection.

Not so. Do you remember that even F-117 was shot down by Serbia forces? China, I believe, has some measure to detect these stealth planes. Of course, no one is certain. Very likely, we will find out only in the war. I believe B-2 is sub sonic? If it is detected, its life is finished. How much does one of them cost? 1 Billion?

The Serbs got lucky. AWST did an excellent article on the shootdown and it it was a combination of factors plus the serbs volley off a large number of missiles to get it. The B-2 flew undetected (I mean you did not pick it up when we dropped on your embassy) in Bosnia, and during GWII despite the nice fibre optic link you built for Hussein.

The declared policy of China is "Peaceful Rise". I guess if US pushes China to the rock bottom on Taiwan issue, China will have no choice but follow "Armed Rise".

More propaganda, one has to wonder are you really that deluded?

Originally posted by FredT
You are way overestimating you military. You could destroy the island in a week not take it intact.

We both can wait and see. Without US, Taiwan will entertain less destruction.

THe american military is researching hypersonic missiles (mach 5+) I doubt seriously that the chinnese have them.

China has the money to buy them from Russia, and Chinese engineers can reengineer and build better and more powerful ones.

Let me tell you one word: Standoff. Do you think seriously that the CBG are going to sit off of your shores and allow you to launce sunburn etc at them. No they will be way off shore. That is the whole point of power projection.

Different kind of missiles can be lauched from different platforms.
Land based mobile vehicles, Submarines, Airplanes, etc. Ballistic missiles pose greatest danger to US carriers. US carrier will be about 1000 Km from Taiwan, futher than that it is same as they are not there.

The Serbs got lucky. AWST did an excellent article on the shootdown and it it was a combination of factors plus the serbs volley off a large number of missiles to get it. The B-2 flew undetected (I mean you did not pick it up when we dropped on your embassy) in Bosnia, and during GWII despite the nice fibre optic link you built for Hussein.

Try your luck. Do you think China will announce everything China is capable of? All I can say is "Let's wait and see".

The declared policy of China is "Peaceful Rise". I guess if US pushes China to the rock bottom on Taiwan issue, China will have no choice but follow "Armed Rise".

More propaganda, one has to wonder are you really that deluded?

It is the policy. If you do not believe it, your problem.


[edit on 15-7-2004 by zcheng]

Everyone here is talking as if we the people make foreign policy
be it the U.S. or China, the truth is we the people have very little
say in what our governments do politically, economically and or
militarily.

In the end, it is we the people of our respective nations that will
suffer in any armed conflict. China needs to back off the invade
Taiwan issue and the U.S. needs to stop goading China. Cooler
heads must prevail if the human race is to survive.

In the end, no one can win a nuclear war and believe me, that
is what will end up happening if this standoff continues. Of course
if this standoff does continue and Nuclear war happens, I will have
to break out my scythe and go on a rampage and I really don't
wanna do that.

Fred T and Soul Reaper are correct.

A. China will not take Taiwan by military force, they gain nothing with that and it makes China look bad to the world right when they need the world market to jump start their economy.

B. The US controls military superiority in all venues. China does not want the US selling arms to Taiwan because it does not want some crazy Taiwaneese Independanace radical authorizing use of force against China. You are looking at the situation in reverse thinking China WANTS to use military force.

C. China WANTS to settle the Taiwan situation economically thereby returning the most gains for China.

D. The US is does want the money, but at the same time is advising Taiwan not to stir up so much trouble. Sounds like a double edge sword to me. Maybe the US and China have an agreement where China sort of acts like it might use military force against Taiwan, the US then oversells Taiwan on outdated military hardware while applying politcal pressure that Taiwan not make so much waves with China but in doing so severly cripples the Taiwan goverment due to purchase payments on the said hardware, leaving their goverment almost bankrupt, due to China pushing the world market to divert manufacturing to China instead of Taiwan and then Taiwan is in perfect position for China to reclaim Taiwan under economic duress. Meanwhile the US gets money for the DoD budget in Foreign arm sales, China gets Taiwan back and neither side, except maybe some confused Taiwaneese solider fires a single bullet.

World Politics, ain't it great........

Remember folks, the world as you think you know it, is in reality just a big play put on by a bunch of actors following a preplanned "script".

Originally posted by robertfenix
Fred T and Soul Reaper are correct.

A. China will not take Taiwan by military force, they gain nothing with that and it makes China look bad to the world right when they need the world market to jump start their economy.

How long do you think the restriction will last?Yes ,we need world market.but world also need China market.Yes, there will be a restriction,but it will not last long.Euro countries are not real friend of America.After a short time,they will come back to China to do business in spite of America's restriction. Do you really think China can't make US have Great loss?Yugoslavia and Iraq can't make any anti-plane missiles,anti-warship-missiles,ground-to-ground missiles and so on.Yes,not all of them are advanced,but some of them are,and they are key weapons.You think your anti-missile system can defeat our ground- to-ground missile?We have good missiles.Our missiles are not sa bad as Iraq's,and Yugoslavia has no good missiles,nut you lost 1 F117.So ,be clear.Your are not careful,but your politicians are careful.America may win,but you may be weakened to be less powerful than some advanced countries in Euro and Japan.Are you willing to see that?No,you rea already used to being superpower in the world?

Originally posted by Megaquad
Everything is made in China, from computers and furniture to McDonalds toys... Trade embargo on China would cause major economic depression, possibly far worst than that in 1930s. There would also be need to build new production plants in US or some low wage countries like India. Cost of that is huuuge.. Simply impossible.

Oh, very good quality stuff from India!

Originally posted by WestPoint23
china warns the US

are they out of their mind no country warns the US they must be asking for a war

Please go to war now! But you and those like you should be the one in the front!

WestPoint23,

I'll be looking for your name on the news when the next war comes around! Dead or alive!