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Christians are becoming social pariahs in Britain, claims BBC presenter Jeremy Vine
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Originally posted by Dragonfly79
There is just one issue for me about Christians, their whole belief states unbelievers like myself go to hell. People can dance around this all their life and not make it a big issue but somewhere at the bottom line the Christian psyche will consider unbelievers as being lesser human beings and some will treat them as such. This must influence their approach to others in society, I can't see how you can be happy while speaking to someone whom your faith predicts will suffer in hell for all of eternity, while you get to go to heaven. Further developing that attitude and it would appear it is best for Christians to see fellow Christians as whole people and non Christians as defective in some way. However one puts it, nonbelievers may treat Christians with genuine kindness while Christians have to fake kindness in their attitude against the nonbelievers.edit on 18/1/2011 by Dragonfly79 because: (no reason given)
Went to pubic school and got a big dose of public school education Dragonfly???
What Believers know and understand ..those on strong meat and not on milk..is that all of us deserve hell and damnation...not just unbelievers..but believers as well. Many Believers are going to be surprised at who gets to heaven and who does not.
Furthermore ..Believers do not determine who goes to heaven or hell..that is the Business of God..not us. We know with pretty good certainty who Believes but not who goes to heaven...or hell.
Dont worry Dragonfly...there are many who claim the name of Jesus who dont know this as well..they are still on milk and not strong meat. And even many of them ..their preachers and ministers want to keep them this way..on milk.
What believers are to do is separate from the unclean thing..from the world and not get caught up in the world's changing winds. Tossed to and fro by every changing fad or idea....the world's nonsense.
As to faking kindness..I find this fingerprint among unbelivers as well...very much so. I cannot understand how you post this as you do???
Christians are to be the salt of the earth..not the sugar. Ironically not many Christians know this in lieu of sugar.
Christianity is also a sect...separated from is what is means. This also means..Christianity is anti social..not social as is much of the world and the kingdom of Ishmael.
Why would you think the social pattern of this world ..tolerating any and everything is the way to go???
Do you believe that Christians owe you something in particular?? That God owes you something in particular??
Something to think about,
Hope this helps you,
Thanks,
Orangetom
reply to post by gnosticquasar
If Mr Vine feels "put out" by people questioning his beliefs then those beliefs are probably not built on very firm ground.
Have you ever met somebody who had a strong belief in something that they love? Have you noticed that when they are questioned about those beliefs that they love that they can talk for hours and are genuinely happy that you are talking to them about it? You see this in some religious people, especially those that have found their faith later in life. The questioning of their beliefs for them is an opportunity to share their happiness in having discovered that path.
Now have you ever met somebody with weak beliefs about something? Do you notice how they become uncomfortable and defensive when questioned about it? These people will quickly attempt to turn the conversation around to you instead of have the personal discomfort have having their own wobbly teeth probed and pulled. You see this in religious people who have had their path chosen by them by their parents or their culture. To them the questioning of their beliefs is a direct attack on those parents and their culture and they cannot answer the questions because it is dogma that should not be questioned.
If Mr Vine feels "put out" by people questioning his beliefs then those beliefs are probably not built on very firm ground.
Have you ever met somebody who had a strong belief in something that they love? Have you noticed that when they are questioned about those beliefs that they love that they can talk for hours and are genuinely happy that you are talking to them about it? You see this in some religious people, especially those that have found their faith later in life. The questioning of their beliefs for them is an opportunity to share their happiness in having discovered that path.
Now have you ever met somebody with weak beliefs about something? Do you notice how they become uncomfortable and defensive when questioned about it? These people will quickly attempt to turn the conversation around to you instead of have the personal discomfort have having their own wobbly teeth probed and pulled. You see this in religious people who have had their path chosen by them by their parents or their culture. To them the questioning of their beliefs is a direct attack on those parents and their culture and they cannot answer the questions because it is dogma that should not be questioned.
reply to post by The Djin
hitler was an atheist, who manipulated the population by appealing to prejudices in their population, pretending to share their beliefs and using the survival instincts of human populations to genocide lots of christians and jews and etc. i would say, after much study of hitler, that he and stalin were essentially working for the same goal and only pretended to be opponents. to this day, i find it exceedingly hard to believe that soldiers from a snowy mountainous country like germany, couldn't make it to moscow because it was too snowy. (nevermind the jewish settlements he managed to wipe out along his route and the fact stalin ended up rounding up jewish scientists after that and killing them as well, something that has only come out in the last few years. if we had known the extent to which stalin and hitler shared ideologies, he'd be right next to hitler as one of the pentultimate examples of racism and bigotry in human history).
hitler was an atheist, who manipulated the population by appealing to prejudices in their population, pretending to share their beliefs and using the survival instincts of human populations to genocide lots of christians and jews and etc. i would say, after much study of hitler, that he and stalin were essentially working for the same goal and only pretended to be opponents. to this day, i find it exceedingly hard to believe that soldiers from a snowy mountainous country like germany, couldn't make it to moscow because it was too snowy. (nevermind the jewish settlements he managed to wipe out along his route and the fact stalin ended up rounding up jewish scientists after that and killing them as well, something that has only come out in the last few years. if we had known the extent to which stalin and hitler shared ideologies, he'd be right next to hitler as one of the pentultimate examples of racism and bigotry in human history).
Originally posted by daggyz
reply to post by The Revenant
If Atheism is not a religion, why do we find them trolling the religious sections and debunking evenone who believes otherwise?
Because we're fed up of being oppressed, abused, villified, killed and generally opposed at every turn by fundie Christians and others obsessed with bringing their religion to every corner of the globe, whether everyone there likes it or not.
Also, the fact that it is so EASY to debunk the lies that theists preach makes life a little more satisfying.
The Rev.
reply to post by The Djin
Public schooling too??
There is no Biblical instruction to do what the Nazi party did in their brief history. This means that no matter what they or you claim about their religion ..it is not based on Christianity. For there is no Biblical Christian instruction to carry on so. There is also no Biblical instruction to carry on historically as did the Roman Catholic Church.
Knowledgeable thinking peoples can connect these dots for themselves. This means that whatever religious dogma the Nazis were following ,...it came not from the Bible but somewhere else..not Biblical..no matter what is publicly stated. The true religion here is hidden ...concealed..even esoteric. Same could be said for the Soviets...except that in the case of the Soviets it is more obvious.
A hidden concealed religion can only be a counterfeit religion..not the one publicly advertised..even Occult..or hidden in its true nature.
the same could be said for politics..today..and yesterday. Definitely a devout/zealous religion..where the true beliefs of the faithful are concealed from the voting public. Thus occult in nature. A dual system in operation.
Another name for this kind of system is a Counterfeit. Thinking peoples know this. This will never be taught in public schools..for you might turn your new found glasses on the school system and the politics which finances it.
And the UK and America are in the middle of this transition to the new religion.
Hope this helps you and some of the other readers out here.
Orangetom
Come on Undo you've been at this long enough and been corrected time enough Hitlers Germany, the people that put him in office "the german people" and backed him all the way were mostly "Christian". All the German army swore an oath to god.
Adolf Hitler was a roman catholic Christian, the church celebrated his birthday.
Public schooling too??
There is no Biblical instruction to do what the Nazi party did in their brief history. This means that no matter what they or you claim about their religion ..it is not based on Christianity. For there is no Biblical Christian instruction to carry on so. There is also no Biblical instruction to carry on historically as did the Roman Catholic Church.
Knowledgeable thinking peoples can connect these dots for themselves. This means that whatever religious dogma the Nazis were following ,...it came not from the Bible but somewhere else..not Biblical..no matter what is publicly stated. The true religion here is hidden ...concealed..even esoteric. Same could be said for the Soviets...except that in the case of the Soviets it is more obvious.
A hidden concealed religion can only be a counterfeit religion..not the one publicly advertised..even Occult..or hidden in its true nature.
the same could be said for politics..today..and yesterday. Definitely a devout/zealous religion..where the true beliefs of the faithful are concealed from the voting public. Thus occult in nature. A dual system in operation.
Another name for this kind of system is a Counterfeit. Thinking peoples know this. This will never be taught in public schools..for you might turn your new found glasses on the school system and the politics which finances it.
And the UK and America are in the middle of this transition to the new religion.
Hope this helps you and some of the other readers out here.
Orangetom
Originally posted by muzzleflash
reply to post by daggyz
That's true.
Atheists claim it's not a religion, it's a "lack of belief".
But they "believe" in that "lack of belief".
Therefore it's a religion.
I honestly don't see any difference from atheism and a theism.
I'm not being funny, but you're trying to pass of fiction as fact. You're wrong, because you are TECHNICALLY wrong, as well as wrong about the THEORY.
We do NOT 'believe' in anything. We simply 'dont have' a belief in any theistic idea. It's not a choice, it's a lack of choice, due to a lack of comprehension of the 'theist' mindset. It's not that we choose NOT to believe, it's that we CANNOT, we are incapable.
Therefore, would everyone please desist with their lies, and understand that Atheism is not a religion.
Yuck, this discussion makes me sick to be human.
The Rev.
Originally posted by undo
reply to post by The Djin
yeshua is a common jewish name (joshua). that other people were called joshua in the same time frame, is irrelevant. i'll look at the rest of your argument but no one is ill prepared, we are all guessing at historical data, based on current understanding (i call this translational bias).
As you were quite able to read yourself, the previous poster asserted that "It was scientifically proven" that jesus was real, do you concur with that statement yes or no?
FYI
Jesus began with Yeishu. The Hebrew name for Jesus has always been Yeishu and the Hebrew for "Jesus the Nazarene" has always been "Yeishu ha-Notzri." (The name Yeishu is a shortened form of the name Yeishua, not Yehoshua.) It is important to note that Yeishu ha-Notzri is not an historical Jesus since modern Christianity denies any connection between Jesus and Yeishu and moreover, parts of the Jesus myth are based on other historical people besides Yeishu.
We know very little about Yeishu ha-Notzri. All modern works that mention him are based on information taken from the Tosefta and the Baraitas - writings made at the same time as the Mishna but not contained in it. Because the historical information concerning Yeishu is so damaging to Christianity, most Christian authors (and even some Jewish ones) have tried to discredit this information and have invented many ingenious arguments to explain it away.
Many of their arguments are based on misunderstandings and misquotations of the Baraitas and in order to get an accurate picture of Yeishu one should ignore Christian authors and examine the Baraitas directly.
Hayyim ben Yehoshua
reply to post by Advantage
Your dad's beliefs are probably closets to the truth. Of all societies, only native peoples manage to live sustainably in their environments. All western religions are homocentric (which is embarassingly ignorant and anti-intellectual) and therefor first and last about dominance. Spirituality and religion are as different as black and white.
Your dad's beliefs are probably closets to the truth. Of all societies, only native peoples manage to live sustainably in their environments. All western religions are homocentric (which is embarassingly ignorant and anti-intellectual) and therefor first and last about dominance. Spirituality and religion are as different as black and white.
reply to post by The Djin
would depend on your interpretation of "science". and nothing can ever be said to be proven, because ultimately, there's always the chance there's some bit of data or lots of bits of data, that prove the original assumptions/science totally incorrect or partially incorrect.
that we grasp onto each other's partially incorrect bits to prove the entire thing is incorrect, is one of humanity's foibles, from what i can tell.
would depend on your interpretation of "science". and nothing can ever be said to be proven, because ultimately, there's always the chance there's some bit of data or lots of bits of data, that prove the original assumptions/science totally incorrect or partially incorrect.
that we grasp onto each other's partially incorrect bits to prove the entire thing is incorrect, is one of humanity's foibles, from what i can tell.
edit on 18-1-2011 by undo because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by ignorant_ape
reply to post by The Djin
UTTER TWADDLE .
Mr Vine is being an over sensetive neurotic
it is not " socially unacceptable " to be a christian - but it is now socially acceptable not to be and even GASP publicily challenge the veracity of religious dogmas .
thats what Mr Vine and his ilk are really afraid of - the simple fact that " god did it " is no longer the unchallenged answer to everything they do not understand
Exactly. Mr Vine is also in the broadcasing business in a role which requires him to take a more open unbiased view.......he's probably struggling with that !
I also have a sneaking suspicion that the christians are feeling a little bemused that the "religious" public pulpit is being occupied by the over vocal muslims giving the impression that the only religious folks left are increasingly muslim which is complete nonsense of course. I would quite like to hear more christians (like Mr Vine) jumping up and down and letting us know what they believe it might bring some balance back to public perception which is driving some very distorted viewpoints......
So Mr Vine stop whining, let your beliefs be known but dont complain when some of us disagree with you accept it with good grace as we atheists have done for years (well most of us).
Originally posted by undo
reply to post by The Djin
would depend on your interpretation of "science". and nothing can ever be said to be proven, because ultimately, there's always the chance there's some bit of data or lots of bits of data, that prove the original assumptions/science totally incorrect or partially incorrect.
that we grasp onto each other's partially incorrect bits to prove the entire thing is incorrect, is one of humanity's foibles, from what i can tell.edit on 18-1-2011 by undo because: (no reason given)
So you will concede that there is no contemporaneous evidence for the jesus written about in the gospels (authors unknown) that were penned no earlier than 68 ad and as late as 100 ad?
Yes or no ?
reply to post by squizzy
No no nooo. How many people still believe in the 'Winterfest/Winterval' story?
Winterval myth still alive and kicking
The biggest war on christmas myths
Go back to reading the Daily Mail mate
No no nooo. How many people still believe in the 'Winterfest/Winterval' story?
Winterval myth still alive and kicking
The biggest war on christmas myths
In 1997 and 1998, Birmingham City Council ran a promotional campaign called Winterval. It was three months long, and included celebrations of Hallowe’en, Bonfire Night, Diwali, Ramadan, Eid, Hannukah, Advent, Christmas, Boxing Day, New Year’s Eve and Chinese New Year. At Christmas, according to a statement from the council, "there was a banner saying Merry Christmas across the front of the council house, Christmas lights, Christmas trees in the main civil squares, regular carol-singing sessions by school choirs, and the Lord Mayor sent a Christmas card with a traditional Christmas scene wishing everyone a Merry Christmas"
Go back to reading the Daily Mail mate
edit on 18/1/2011 by Griffo because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by pajoly
reply to post by Advantage
Your dad's beliefs are probably closets to the truth. Of all societies, only native peoples manage to live sustainably in their environments. All western religions are homocentric (which is embarassingly ignorant and anti-intellectual) and therefor first and last about dominance. Spirituality and religion are as different as black and white.
you should probably consider the end goal of mob think of the extreme to which you refer. because, if the individual loses his/her rights to mob think and mob think is as flexible as history has proven, it won't be long till people with your particular view point are on the unpopular list and now the machinery is in place to disenfranchise you from your rights. this is the weak point of all who embrace mob think scenarios -- they don't think it all the way thru.
Originally posted by The Djin
reply to post by undo
it's pretty obvious that the same tactics that resulted in the deaths of jews, christians, buddhists, hindus, muslims and gypsies in hitler's germany and stalin's russia are once again (blatantly) in active mode but now they also have the advantage of large groups of new atheists,
Come on Undo you've been at this long enough and been corrected time enough Hitlers Germany, the people that put him in office "the german people" and backed him all the way were mostly "Christian". All the German army swore an oath to god.
Adolf Hitler was a roman catholic Christian, the church celebrated his birthday.
Lies and damn lies but y'all seem to believe that if you repeat that lie enough, people will either believe it or they will run out of energy to challenge you.
Hitler was a pagan not a Christian. He had hatred and contempt for Christians and Christianity (much as you do, ironically!)
Like your precious Dubya, he fooled the people in to believing he was a Christian, Nazi Germany being like the modern USA in that respect also - no atheist/pagan leaders allowed.
The church celebrated his birthday - nice touch, I haven't heard that particular fantasy before - but hey, if you're gonna lie, make it a big one!
Vicky
reply to post by The Djin
i believe jesus actually existed yes. i believe he was a hebrew of the line of david, who was in line to be the next pharaoh of egypt at the time, and thus why he refers to himself as the alpha and omega in revelation. he was the rightful heir. i believe the intimate connections between ancient egypt and israel, beyond and prior to the events in exodus, suggests someone withheld the data for some reason and i ain't sure who it was or why. i also believe buddha actually existed. osiris was alive before he was dead and actually existed under the names: narmer (egyptian), nimrod (biblical), enmerkar (akkadian) and etc.
you asked.
i believe jesus actually existed yes. i believe he was a hebrew of the line of david, who was in line to be the next pharaoh of egypt at the time, and thus why he refers to himself as the alpha and omega in revelation. he was the rightful heir. i believe the intimate connections between ancient egypt and israel, beyond and prior to the events in exodus, suggests someone withheld the data for some reason and i ain't sure who it was or why. i also believe buddha actually existed. osiris was alive before he was dead and actually existed under the names: narmer (egyptian), nimrod (biblical), enmerkar (akkadian) and etc.
you asked.
edit on 18-1-2011 by undo because: (no reason given)
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/aee1f44facfb3aa6.jpg[/atsimg]
^alpha and omega.
^alpha and omega.
In my home town, in the UK, there is a local park, the land was given to the town by a benefactor in the early 1800’s, when the park was first
opened people came from all over the UK to visit it, the park’s formal gardens were a “Joy to Behold”. In the park there was a statue of a
Florentine Boar, moving forward to the present day the local muslin community have demanded that the boar is removed as they find it offensive. The
last I heard was that the local authority was considering their request.
Surely this crazy I don’t mind making allowances of peoples faiths and beliefs but it has to be a two way street, the removal of the boar may satisfy the local Muslim community but what about me and the rest of the people who enjoy then statue of the boar.
The boar has been there for a long time it was never meant as symbol of Muslim oppression; it is simply a piece of art.
I am all for tollerance but both side need to play the game
Surely this crazy I don’t mind making allowances of peoples faiths and beliefs but it has to be a two way street, the removal of the boar may satisfy the local Muslim community but what about me and the rest of the people who enjoy then statue of the boar.
The boar has been there for a long time it was never meant as symbol of Muslim oppression; it is simply a piece of art.
I am all for tollerance but both side need to play the game
edit on 18-1-2011 by PJB729 because: spelling
reply to post by undo
Ah yes Undo I vaguely remember us having a brief (and polite) discussion on this before, in your opinion as there is no evidence to suggest the contrary which (if any) of the aforementioned Jesii (plural of jesus lol ?) would fit the bill ?
What is your opinion on Ralph Ellis' works if you have studied any? as I detect a hint of parallel thought
i believe he was a hebrew of the line of david, who was in line to be the next pharaoh of egypt at the time,
Ah yes Undo I vaguely remember us having a brief (and polite) discussion on this before, in your opinion as there is no evidence to suggest the contrary which (if any) of the aforementioned Jesii (plural of jesus lol ?) would fit the bill ?
What is your opinion on Ralph Ellis' works if you have studied any? as I detect a hint of parallel thought
reply to post by Advantage
It's not true, he's slightly pushing an meme, Christians used to be thought of as good and the CofE was more popular and powerful, I guess he was used to being treated extra good when talking of his Christianity now it's just like he's announcing another hobby or interest, nowt special.
It's not true, he's slightly pushing an meme, Christians used to be thought of as good and the CofE was more popular and powerful, I guess he was used to being treated extra good when talking of his Christianity now it's just like he's announcing another hobby or interest, nowt special.
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