Israel said it would keep Gaza near collapse: WikiLeaks

And YOUR taxpayer money is funding this!! It's a disgrace and needs to be fixed...

reply to post by Eliad

The best thing that could happen to Israel is an all our war with Hamas, as Hamas is most effective when not dealt with head on.. So what do you mean?

NO, the best thing would be to settle all disputes and live in peace..

Obviously Israel would like a head on war because they know they have superior weapons, partly thanks to the US..

And what would the removal of Hamas do?
Would Israel stop the illegal settlements, remove the blockades and recognize palistine as a state??

Originally posted by Ellen15
this_is_who_we_are

typical indoctrinated war mongering mindset: - "bomb them, kill them all, destroy everything"

USA/Allies need to:

* Stop funding/sending aid
* Stop trading with Israel
* Stop selling/aiding Israel with weapons
* Stop siding and supporting Israel
* Stop looking the other way
* Stop making excuses for Israel's actions

edit on 6-1-2011 by Ellen15 because: (no reason given)

To purge a corrupt system, sometimes one must break a few eggs. You know, like the Declaration of Independence said. Shrug off the corruption and the like.

I'm not a "warmonger". Destroying a corrupt system is not war mongering. I'm actually a pacifist. But hey, think what you will.

reply to post by backinblack


So what you meant is Israel's rules are aimed at peace, and that's why war would be bad for them?

Removal of Hamas would allow both sides to unite under one government, one that does not resort to violence to solve its political struggle. What would follow is probably something similar to what happened to the West Bank- Money, building, free passage, etc.

Seeing as there aren't any settlements and blockades in Gaza, and its borders are pretty much defined, it would be in Israel's interest to recognize it to relieve some of the international pressure.

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by backinblack

 

So what you meant is Israel's rules are aimed at peace, and that's why war would be bad for them?

Removal of Hamas would allow both sides to unite under one government, one that does not resort to violence to solve its political struggle. What would follow is probably something similar to what happened to the West Bank- Money, building, free passage, etc.

Seeing as there aren't any settlements and blockades in Gaza, and its borders are pretty much defined, it would be in Israel's interest to recognize it to relieve some of the international pressure.

The conflict started well before Hamas came into being..
That's just the latest excuse for Israeli actions..
If Hamas disappeared tomorrow Israel would just find another excuse..

Israel do NOT want peace...They want LAND and Resources...

Originally posted by Ilovecatbinlady

This has been going on for over 40 years now. Why today and this news is any different from the news of these crimes heard 40 years ago is beyond me? No one did anything 40 years ago..20, or even 10. Why now?

In 20 years of activism on this issue, 20 yrs of reporting, documenting, of files, photographs, first hand stories and withnessing atrocity after atrocity exhausting what little hope I could to friends affected, Ive come to the conclusion that its not just the IDF and their political leash holders that are f u b a r...its US.

Why sit here and lament for a dying people ( both sides) if your not going to act?
Wishing for change isnt action...children die anyway...we all KNOW whats going on..so information is no longer the problem....we know whos doing what so intel isnt an issue either. Action on what we know is what is needed - reasoned disciplined action and yet its there that everyone seems paralysed, except the brave few like MSF, Rachel Corrie, PYBO and a few others who stay to die or simply just be there to help, willingly..divesting themselves of their own rights, human and otherwise, in order to document everything for historys sake...for your sake..so you can sit here in 20 more years time, a well informed 'weeping executioner'.

I found that term ' weepeing executioner' being used by an American writer on another site today to describe a church council that refused to stand in faith with one of its own.....it seems very apt to describe whats happening here and now as regards Palestine....and perhaps it explains more than politics can about why things arent changing for the better.

An old poem by James Russell Lowell seems to sum it up best...it speaks of ' weeping executioners ' - being those who express concern for the oppressed, but will not leave their place in the hierarchy of that oppression.


Once to every soul and nation, comes the moment to decide.
In the strife of truth with falsehood, for the good or evil side.
Some great cause, some great decision, offering each the bloom or blight.
And that choice goes by forever twixt that darkness and that light .
"Then it is the brave soul chooses while the coward stands aside.
Till the multitude make virtue of the faith they had denied.
New occasions teach new duties. Time makes ancient good uncouth.
They must upward still and onward who would keep abreast of truth.


This from Jim Rigby also seems apt:


"The revolutionary "soul" of democracy is not submission to the will of the majority, but the conviction that every human being has certain inalienable rights that cannot be put up for a vote. When a majority deprives the minority of inalienable rights, every decent citizen must be willing to leave the majority and stand with the minority.
When citizens in a democracy feel their only power is to vote for candidates who then tell them what to do, they have forgotten what liberty means. They become beasts of burden who think they are free if they can vote on who rides them. Democracy demands an active courage. Unless citizens are brave enough to follow its principles in times of crisis, democracy loses its sinew and dies. "


This applies to the situation in Israel quite fiercly, as it is the the people of the United Sates directly, in forgetting Brother John, that have voted into power and abdicated the active portion of their personal conscience to those who are willing to provide unequalled and unending funding for the forces commiting the crimes being seen in Palestine.

Only the US can stop this handover of funds...and only the people of the US can demand this of their government. Without those funds most of which are spent on military hardware not social care for the Gazans, Israel would be *starved* into mutual agreements not one sided 'pax' deals in short order.

Martin Luther King wrote a letter from the Birmingham Jail to his own weeping executioners to say "justice delayed is justice denied." Later, he also wrote the following call to courage:

Immortally he wrote:

" I say to you, this morning, that if you have never found something so dear and precious to you that you will die for it, then you aren't fit to live. You may be 38 years old, as I happen to be, and one day, some great opportunity stands before you and calls upon you to stand for some great principle, some great issue, some great cause. And you refuse to do it because you are afraid.
You refuse to do it because you want to live longer. You're afraid that you will lose your job, or you are afraid that you will be criticized or that you will lose your popularity, or you're afraid that somebody will stab or shoot or bomb your house. So you refuse to take a stand. Well, you may go on and live until you are 90, but you are just as dead at 38 as you would be at 90. And the cessation of breathing in your life is but the belated announcement of an earlier death of the spirit. You died when you refused to stand up for right. You died when you refused to stand up for truth. You died when you refused to stand up for justice."

So..its in your hands..if its not too late to take them out of the chains their in.

This is why, knowing full well the range of potential consequences, but also knowing the difference between simple right and wrong in my own concience and choosing in faith to have no leash around my throat, I choose in conscience and action to support the people of Palestine in their grief and time of devestation.

Im 'against' no one, but do stand freely and willingly against the tyrrany of these actions as a whole, and stand with and for the children of Gaza and ultimately, the children of Israel as well.

Its not zionism, islamism..not even terrorism thats the problem in Gaza...its US.....its that PEOPLE wont stand up to what they know inherrently is wrong..and so being reminsiant of the german people circa 1938, they wont risk soft beds tvs and mcdonalds to say enough is enough...they wont act on belief instead of believing in beliefs....and so through natural law itself, they will reap the cost of that, as individuals and as nations.
There is no sowing without reaping....for anyone.


Rosha.

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by backinblack

 

So what you meant is Israel's rules are aimed at peace, and that's why war would be bad for them?

Removal of Hamas would allow both sides to unite under one government, one that does not resort to violence to solve its political struggle. What would follow is probably something similar to what happened to the West Bank- Money, building, free passage, etc.

Seeing as there aren't any settlements and blockades in Gaza, and its borders are pretty much defined, it would be in Israel's interest to recognize it to relieve some of the international pressure.

Pardon for intruding into your conversation with another...but are you implying that what the IDF has done and is doing is 'non violent' ?

Are they not resorting to violence to solve their problems right now by invanding lands, executing and forcibly removing people, starving them, imprisoning them in camps, bulldozing homes, denying food, imprisoning children and applying psychological stategums to achieve their ends?

Are these not acts of violence both to the body and mind, and more, of the spirit?

Please...keep in mind that these 'acts of violence' by the Israelie politic and armed services came long before ANY retaliation by HAMMAS or ANY other Palestinian group. That act of arrogance and violence and terror, spurned on by a desire within US and European goverments to RID themselves of the Jewish people, is what began this chain of events.

And please do not insult the intelligence of people here who can research this data freely for themselves by claiming otherwise. Please simply go research the policy of ' "population transfer" used first by the Reich in 1938 and now by the Israelie political wing and IDF.

Its there..for you to read and research and to find the truth for yourself...don't believe me..go see for yourself.

Here's a few places to start:

Earliest writings on the subject by RABBI DR. CHAIM SIMONS
chaimsimons.net...
www.palestineremembered.com...

And again...from their own mouths:

Yosef Weitz - architect of the 'transfer'
www.palestineremembered.com...

and most damningly...

In October 1882 Ben-Yehuda and Yehiel Michal Pines, few of the earliest Zionist pioneers in Palestine, wrote describing the indigenous Palestinians:

". . . There are now only five hundred [thousand] Arabs, who are not very strong, and from whom we shall easily take away the country if only we do it through stratagems [and] without drawing upon us their hostility before we become the strong and papules ones." (Righteous Victims, p. 49)


The result of enforcement of that view, is evidenced on the ground in Palestine today...right in front of your face.

If you really want to know some truth, then take those names in that snippet above, and go read about them..who they are what they believed in and then ask yourself if you are the same as they are..believe the same..have the same goals.

If not..why are you supporting and defending them? If yes..then that is your right and choice of course..and you have to live with that knowing.....but at least you would be doing so knowing the entire truth of your belief...and so be able to take better account for it when your time comes.





Rosha.



[

reply to post by backinblack


Each and every single detail and fact of this conflict suggests otherwise, you just can't seem to give Israel the same credit I give the Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims.

Israel does not feel safe with Hamas as its neighbor, unless they change their ways, is it difficult to understand, or difficult to believe?

The peace process with and withdrawal out of the West Bank.

The unilateral settlement evacuation out of Gaza.

The peace with Egypt for the price of a land mass 3 times the size of Israel.

The peace process with Jordan.

All these *should* have at least given Israel some amount of credit in your eyes, but you either don't know the facts, or you just refuse to recognize history when it hurts the narrative you're fighting for.

reply to post by Ilovecatbinlady


Please, I dare you, show me one instance where I victimized myself or Israel, if not for me do it for your credibility as a fellow ATSer.

reply to post by Rosha

are you implying that what the IDF has done and is doing is 'non violent' ?

What the hell gave you that impression?

Please...keep in mind that these 'acts of violence' by the Israelie politic and armed services came long before ANY retaliation by HAMMAS or ANY other Palestinian group.

We have two choices here- Either I make a long speech teaching you the history of violence of this region, or you go and find out for yourself why you're wrong.
I'll save you some time- In the end you find out that it wasn't one side or the other that started this conflict, but a general rise in violent activity in the region due to political influences on both sides, furthermore this whole "He started it" notion is immature, and contributes nothing to this discussion.

And please do not insult the intelligence of people here who can research this data freely for themselves by claiming otherwise.

Please do not insult the intelligence of people here by claiming that everyone come to the same conclusions when researching this data freely.

Please simply go research the policy of ' "population transfer" used first by the Reich in 1938 and now by the Israelie political wing and IDF.

The idea of the "population transfer" is widely rejected in most circles of Israeli society and politics. Radical right wing activists were quick to adopt it, but I neither support these view nor do I wish to defend them.
Criticizing Israel for the views of its most radical citizens is a bit misguided, don't you think?

Is there another way to view it or take it that you can think of?

"The Arabs are few and weak, and we'll easily take this country if we're tricky and manage not to make them hostile"...

The result of enforcement of that view, is evidenced on the ground in Palestine today...

You pimp out these views as if they were the mainstream views of Jewish society, when in fact if you had only done some honest research, outside of your anti Israeli websites, you would have found 10 voices of reason for every narrow minded idiot.
You want to attest the state of Palestine to this view in particular, rather then the hundreds of views who were predominant in Israel at the time, most of which much more left wing? Most revolved around living *with* the Arabs?

If you really want to know some truth

How bold of you to claim that you have the "truth" when all you bring me is anti Israeli and anti Zionist sources that make no mention of anything but the worst, most narrow minded individuals or quotes in Zionist history, by blatantly removing all traces of context, by misquoting and avoiding all mention of anything said by those people that might have ruined the "gist" of what the author was trying to pass off as "truth".

If not..why are you supporting and defending them?

I'm not, and I never have, and I find this melodrama unnecessary.


Look, you come barging in with half truths, misquotes and anti Zionist reports of transfer, and present them to me as if you've found the holy grail of the Israeli Palestinian conflict, expecting me to do one of two things- Suddenly realize the error of my ways and reform, or prove myself to be the evil Zionist blinded Israeli you, for some reason, assumed me to be.

Well, neither is happening, this isn't the holy grail, and you should go back to studying the subject, maybe go look for historians who deny Benny Morris for a start, that show how he heavily misquotes and avoid context to promote his own narrative.

Excuse me for being cranky, I'm just tired of people assuming they know all about me just because I have Location: Israel in my sidebar, and assuming they know all about this conflict because they've read a few articles in If only america knew dot org... Not to mention you're completely off topic for no apparent reason.

With all due respect, it's not that simple.

Originally posted by backinblack
If Israel are acting on Gods wishes then give me Hell anyday...

Satan himself couldn't be as cruel...

Notice how nobody says which god?

Funny how whenever someone says "god" most people automatically assume it's a nice one...

Originally posted by Eliad

Rosha:
are you implying that what the IDF has done and is doing is 'non violent' ?

Eliad:
What the hell gave you that impression?

Your own words: " Removal of Hamas would allow both sides to unite under one government, one that does not resort to violence to solve its political struggle. What would follow is probably something similar to what happened to the West Bank- Money, building, free passage, etc. "

Why not then , the removal of the IDF? Why focus on Hammas which is obviously the inferrior military power and so the less of the threats to peace and progress? The outcome would be the same. Is it not that the focus on Hammas is an issue of IDF control not positive and productive ( to all sides) political change?
Removal of Hammas would only allow one thing - the IDF the unchallenged and full and total control of the Palestinian people.
Removal of Hammas would allow Israel to enact its actal 'final solution' which only recently..was outed as being the total supression and opression of the Palestinian people, right up to an including their 'electromagnetic sphere'.

Need I write Netanyahu's own words:
" A Palestinian state must be demilitarized, without control over its air space and electro-magnetic field, and without the power to enter into treaties or control its borders. "

If it is a truly Palestinan state - then who the f*ck is this guy to be controling it or dictating what it will be and how it will be? Isnt the primary point of statehood - self determination?

More to the point - how would you feel if I was the leader of a big bully nation with more acces to military hardware and political weight than you and I sauntered into Jerusalem and came and said exactly the same thing about ' the state of Israel' ?

" An Israelie state must be demilitarized without control over its airspace and elcrot-magnetic field and wthout the power to enter into treaties OR to control its borders"

Really consider that for a second.....

What would YOUR honest reaction be to that prononcement?

What would you think feel and do then?

Can you not forgive the Palestinains for refusing to bow to this false new godhead of Israel?

Would YOU live under those conditions of external control?
I most certainly would not..for many reasons but mostly, as such would allow for an even greater horror and crimes to be done in secret, crimes that would completely ahnialate the people of Palestine as a people from history.

The sad reality is that even if one is formed, under these conditions of Israelie political extremism it wont be a Palestinian state...except in name only. It will be or become very quickly, an even more 'legally' annexed open air prison for anyone Israel deems undesirable and its existance will eventually allow Israel to dispose of the jewish arab population in Jersalem as well.

Oh...and the above isnt some radmon zionist quote taken out of context....this is NOW..Israels *current* chief minster saying these words and expecting to be 'ok amongst a world full of people who know what Nazism looks and smells like!!

They might have the Palestinans convinced they are god..but not me....they might have even convinced portions of the Palestinan people themselves that Hammas is the problem...but not me. The uses of the IDF as an ideological weapon and standing Israelie politics is the problem...has been from the begining.

Coveting what another has - lands freedoms etc - is the problem
Stealing is the problem
Ongoing murder is the problem

It remains that this is nothing short of hitlar invading europe all over again...and worse...this time instead of outrage we have complicty.

The idea of the "population transfer" is widely rejected in most circles of Israeli society and politics. Radical right wing activists were quick to adopt it, but I neither support these view nor do I wish to defend them.
Criticizing Israel for the views of its most radical citizens is a bit misguided, don't you think?

Except it WASNT widely rejected when it mattered..and now it is too late....except for those remaining Arabs living in Jerusalem that is.

The proof of the Israelie policy of "Population Transfer" as a policy is self evident..its already happened.

And given half a chance, with a 'palestinain state' handy to dump them in..it will happen again inside Jerusalem.
The apartheid ground work is already there for such an event..they just need a pretext.

In any case, just what and who's views dominated and were eventually turned into action is also very clear and evident on the ground in Gaza right now. 'Nice' viewed people didnt get a word in or failed to ACT on their beliefs and so the radicals won the day.

The truth is in living colour, and it is the reality for Palestinans today.

Perhaps, a small group, but those radicals did and have taken over Israelie defence policy and the proof it right in front of your face.

Are we all to just deny the unspeakable acts done in the name of God and defence?
Are we to justify them?
No.

You pimp out these views as if they were the mainstream views of Jewish society, when in fact if you had only done some honest research, outside of your anti Israeli websites, you would have found 10 voices of reason for every narrow minded idiot.
You want to attest the state of Palestine to this view in particular, rather then the hundreds of views who were predominant in Israel at the time, most of which much more left wing? Most revolved around living *with* the Arabs?

The nation of Palestine is gone. Not one voice of the moderate Israelie was ever taken into consideration and the effect of narrow minded idiots being in control has already occured.

What is left - quasi hope of a tiny state forged under the iron fist of Israelie control..isnt what I call "living with" anymore than the USDF 'live with' the Iraqi people.

How bold of you to claim that you have the "truth"

If you read my words, not your interpretation of them I wrote if you want to know the truth go research these men for yourself and see how their views became policy..I said I dont have *the* truth but rather that *the* truth of those words and views is right there and the evidence they *were* and are still being acted on in and turned into existing and ongoing policy is right there...in front of you.

I am sorry you view the loss of lives and the murder of children daily in Palestine as 'melodrama'.
If it were your children not theirs...would that make a difference?




Rosha.

reply to post by Rosha

Why not then , the removal of the IDF?

Because Hamas has a problem with the state of Israel itself, and all its citizens, not just the IDF.
IDF removed= Hamas invades Israel. Hamas removed= The same thing that happened in the West Bank.

Why focus on Hammas

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Eliad

 

And what would the removal of Hamas do?

A direct question is why I focused on Hamas. Didn't you bother to check?

Removal of Hammas would only allow one thing - the IDF the unchallenged and full and total control of the Palestinian people.

The PLO- the oldest, strongest Palestinian violent organization has relinquished violence, and started cooperating with Israel, by your logic what should have happened is the capture of all of the West Bank for Israel. Instead Israel withdrew all its forces and closed all of its blockades (most), and started investing money in the PA.

How do you explain that?

The sad reality is that even if one is formed, under these conditions of Israelie political extremism it wont be a Palestinian state...except in name only.

True, except in name. Oh and inhabitants, flag, anthem, culture, customs, holidays, laws, elected officials... Come to think of it the only thing that won't be theirs is a military, an air space, and an "electromagnetic sphere" whatever the hell that means (Do you have any idea?)...

It will be or become very quickly, an even more 'legaly' annexed open air prison for anyone Israel deems undesirable and its existance will eventually allow Israel to dispose of the jewish arab population in Jersalem as well.

Is any of this backed up by any kind of logic, or is it all just a gut feeling? I'd like to hear what exactly leads you to believe any of this might happen?

Oh...and this isnt some radmon zionist quote taken out of context....this is NOW..Israels *current* chief minster saying these words and expecting to be 'ok amongst a world full of people who know what Nazism looks and smells like!!

All he's saying is "we don't want them to have guns". The PA took this deal, and they're doing pretty good. Seriously, just look at the West Bank and examine all your assumptions.

This is nothign short of hitlar invading poland all over again..

You're kidding me, right? Please, draw the similarities.

Except it WASNT widely rejected when it mattered..

And you're talking about..?

The apartheid ground work is already there for such an event..

What is this apartheid groundwork?

Are we all to just deny the unspeakable acts done in the name of God and defence?
Are we to justify them?
No.

Drama aside, this could easily be applied to both sides, so what's your point?

The nation of Palestine is gone. Not one voice of the moderate Israelie was ever taken into consideration and the effect of narrow minded idiots being in control has already occured.

There was no 'nation of Palestine', the sense of nationality only came during the 1930-1940's for reasons we're not going to get into at the moment, but saying the voice of the moderate Israelis was never taken into consideration is not only a mistake, but it also shows how little you know about Palestine in the 1920-1950's.

I am sorry you view the loss of lives and the murder of children daily in Palestine as 'melodrama'. If it were your children not theirs...would that make a difference?

What dead children are you talking about, we were talking about defending the actions of radicals..
The fact that you're so quick to mention dead children, as if they were some kind of ace up your sleeve is simply disgraceful.
The cynical use of their deaths as a means to win a debate in an internet forum is simply appalling.

As for my original comment on melodrama- Emotion can never be a substitute for reason.

reply to post by Eliad

True, except in name. Oh and inhabitants, flag, anthem, culture, customs, holidays, laws, elected officials... Come to think of it the only thing that won't be theirs is a military, an air space, and an "electromagnetic sphere" whatever the hell that means (Do you have any idea?)...

See now that is just NOT an option..
You can't say a country/state is free when you DEMAND they have no military and DEMAND control of their air space..

Only a fool would agree to that and only a bigger fool would put them options forward expecting anything but a negative reply..

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Eliad

 

True, except in name. Oh and inhabitants, flag, anthem, culture, customs, holidays, laws, elected officials... Come to think of it the only thing that won't be theirs is a military, an air space, and an "electromagnetic sphere" whatever the hell that means (Do you have any idea?)...

See now that is just NOT an option..
You can't say a country/state is free when you DEMAND they have no military and DEMAND control of their air space..

Only a fool would agree to that and only a bigger fool would put them options forward expecting anything but a negative reply..

I agree....any agreement made that does not permit FULL autonomy is captitulation.

Even basic border control would be denied the Palestinians under Netenyahu's plans and that ISNT statehood...it is forced submission of the worst kind - through atriction.

Israel's doggedness on the issue of Gaza is as much capitalist as zionist...as it is about free unfettered access to gas and oil as much as imperialist ideology.


To Eliad -

The electromagnetic sphere - means all radio frequencies over the skies of Palestinan territories will be jammed and controlled - no free tv, music, no future freedom of astronomy, no putting sattelites in orbit, no telephonic or military privacy EVER which means NO real free and nfettered political process either and these things would be under total Israelie control.

Thats is akin to me taking control of you, in yor own home...me saying that sure, you can live in your house, but you cant go outside at all unless I say so and even then, only where and when I say you can go, and when you turn on the tv, you may only watch the programs determined suitable for you by me.
Whats more, you cant turn on the radio today as I have decided I dont want to give you that right..and tomorrow you will only have one hour of electricity because one of your children said somethig I didnt like in public today.

Tell me, truthfully....wouldnt you just LOVE to live like that?

How wonderful such freedom yes?
The right to exist with no right to live....what ARE you complaining about?


No?
Dont like the interpersonal viewpoint?

Then why expect people as equally as capeable of reason and thought and humanity as equally as deserving of freedom as you are to expect to like it or lump it?

The right to FREE media devoid of censorship...is not even on the table!

Collective punishment, random arrests, murder, insane acts of barbarity, pursuit of control beyond all reason....this..you defend.

I genuinly dont get why, even in debate, and if you claim the right to freedom from these things yourself, why you would deny that right to others and decry their attempts to secure those most basic of human rights...the right TO live..freely.

Something YOU take for granted as a "right"...Israel plans to deny to the Palestian people if they submit.
Yet, Israel has NO inherrent rights over or to interfere with the Palestinans - as a human population they are EQUAL..Israelies are not 'better' or 'superior' to them in any way whatsoever. Whatever rights Israel is claiming in Palestine..they are make believe..they are made up rights to suit themselves and they are being given power by people..people who could eaually choose to not give them power...but do not.

Israel does not have the inherrant right to kill..to seize control etc..these are claimed rights..made up rights.
And no points of 'self defence' please as Israel chose to enter lands that were not their own and to depopulate and imprison the indigenous population..you sow..you reap.

As for childrens death..here's a graph...yes form that horrible site that tells the truth....I ahvent got time to squander at present to go get more form my other comptor.
www.ifamericansknew.org...

This graph is incomplete however as doesnt even take into account those women and children who have died of indirect actions such as denial of medical treatment and those who died as a result of starvation and ongoing malnutriton and simply curable disease...not does it account for those recently murdered in Cast Lead.
Must 6 million plus one Palestinans die for their suffering to be considered 'equal' their children of equal value?

What dead children are you talking about, we were talking about defending the actions of radicals..
The fact that you're so quick to mention dead children, as if they were some kind of ace up your sleeve is simply disgraceful.

What dead children? ALL of them!
I mentioned them as they ARE the RESULTS of the actions of radicals! Actions that cannot be viewed honestly in the absence of their consequences!

Its not 'joke' or ' lack of reasoned debate' to make clear these goings on..to point out the overwhelming disparity between Israelie and Plestinan death rates...to point ot that while you sit and argue the finery, it is the children, the *innocent* who are suffering the most. That these are the conseqences of inaction and a slow torturous maniplation of the evident truth!

These children's deaths are the raw facts OF that debate...one was too many let alone a hundred, a thousand etc.

Their deaths arent being used as weapons..the numbers, cold plain and simple, are simply facts you simply dont want to recognise as that would mean becoming emotionally hence humanly involved..and we cant have that can we!

Recognising and accepting accountability for these deaths is integral to any process of moving forward....without accountability there can be no justice..no forgiveness...something which is needed here more than anything else.

I cannot condem or vilify an entire people for simply refusing to die quietly and conveniantly so a bully can steal from them without sanction.

The Palestinan people, as human beings, have every right to say NO to Israel. As do I...as does the world...and I, and many will continue to do so..one more time than they say yes to the last man or woman, if need be.

If it were Israel..and the Jewish people facing this facism and threat to their lives...as it was in 1938..I would be doing the same thing. THAT is the difference....its the tyrrany I am fighting..not the people.


R

It will be or become very quickly, an even more 'legaly' annexed open air prison for anyone Israel deems undesirable and its existance will eventually allow Israel to dispose of the jewish arab population in Jersalem as well.


Is any of this backed up by any kind of logic, or is it all just a gut feeling? I'd like to hear what exactly leads you to believe any of this might happen?

Just the historical precedent - the lack of a 'right of return' for *all* Palestinians removed or roused from their homes and lands...the ongoing bulldozing of Palestinain homes and razing of their lands for new Jewish settlers....Rabbi's demanding Jewish people not rent homes to or buy or sell with Arab populations....the existance of the 'fence'.....military checkpoints..obsessive control policies...ongoinf imprisonment of children...ongoing murder...ongoing operations to remove whats left of resistance..complete and utter lack of meaningful consideration for the actual human lives of victims.....so yeah...no evidence exists at all that might lead a sane person to that conclusion......nothing to see here.....just move along....its all just gut feeling I supose.



Rosha.

reply to post by backinblack

You can't say a country/state is free when you DEMAND they have no military and DEMAND control of their air space..

Autonomy does not equal an army. Let's examine the West Bank again for a second, simply because they've agreed to have no army- At first they had nothing, then they got guns for their police force, and now they're getting APCs, in the future I would assume they would get whatever they else they want. I assume this would be the case with Gaza eventually.

An army is not always a good thing, why do you think Abu Mazzen agreed not to have an army? Because he knows he could easily lose control of that army, and be run over by his own generals. Hamas, on the other hand, is the military, and its leaders know that when the resistance stops there'll be no use for them anymore.

Are you aware that there was a planned coup in the West Bank that was thwarted by the PA just a week ago?

I ask again- Is the PA in such a bad state without an army?

As for air space and radio frequencies- Again, this doesn't mean all flights are grounded and that no TV is allowed, just means they can't shoot down Israeli planes if they go over their country.. Not right, I agree, but how does that change their lives?

reply to post by Rosha

no free tv, music, no future freedom of astronomy, no putting sattelites in orbit, no telephonic or military privacy EVER which means NO real free and nfettered political process either and these things would be under total Israelie control.

Woah woah woah! Don't you think you're going a bit too far? The West Bank is under the same terms, and they get free TV, radio, telephone and astronomy...
Sattelites? The PA is decades away from launching a sattelite..
Why must you always imagine the worst case scenario when you have in front of your eyes contradicting facts?

Thats is akin to me taking control of you, in yor own home...me saying that sure, you can live in your house, but you cant go outside at all unless I say so and even then,

How is that even remotely similar?!

and tomorrow you will only have one hour of electricity because one of your children said somethig I didnt like in public today.

I refer you to the West Bank, 'nuff said. Seriously, man, where is all of this coming from? Can't you see you're completely in the wrong here?

The right to FREE media devoid of censorship...is not even on the table!

Do you just make these things up, or am I completely misinformed? Again, the West Bank is also under control, and you have no idea what the TV there shows.. There's no censorship, where do you get your information from?

Collective punishment, random arrests, murder, insane acts of barbarity, pursuit of control beyond all reason....this..you defend.

Your point of view is so detached from reality that to you every arrest is a random arrest, every death is a murder, every act of aggression is an insane act of barbarity, and every attempt to maintain order is a pursuit of control beyond reason.

If that's how you *want* to view this conflict then what good is this debate?
If that's how you've *come to understand* this conflict then your sources of information lack balance in reporting.

Israel does not have the inherrant right to kill..to seize control etc..

Neither does Hamas.

These children's deaths are the raw facts OF that debate...

No they're not, they're just an emotional trigger you use to somehow make completely unrelated arguments of mine invalid- Me: "I don't defend the actions of radicals, in fact I oppose them" You: "YES, BUT YOU ALSO MURDER CHILDREN", see how that works? And you can apply it to anything- Me: "Demilitarizing worked out well for the PA, why shouldn't it work for Hamas?", You: "BECAUSE YOU MURDER CHILDREN!".

I cannot condem or vilify an entire people for simply refusing to die quietly and conveniantly so a bully can steal from them without sanction.

Then how can you condemn Israel?

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by Rosha

 

Then how can you condemn Israel?

Eliad
I dont know if you have ben watching the news but we are dealing with our own immediate tradgedy over here..and I have family affected and so cant sit here and type as I would wish.

I did want to answer this point...the one above...but I have to go rescue some people from some seroius flooding...so the rest will have to wait.

I dont condem Israel...or the Jewish people. I have niether the power or desire.

I do see Israel via the hand of zionists is condeming itself.
Its as much that I am seeking to prevent and call attention to, as much as to uphold the right of self determination for the people of Palestine.

I would direct YOU back to the West Bank...to hear the stories of the people there, that are not 'all pretty' and ask you to listen to them, and read their blogs and hear their stories as to what life is really like for them. Those who are not traders and so are not beneifting from Israels slight of hand...but also not falling for the bribe.

It's easy to belittle me, to seek to undermine my views..but try undermining theirs....they're living it.


take care.
Rosha.

reply to post by Rosha


You are an excellent writer and it is for this reason I gave you a star.

You problem is that you equate the victim and the victimiser as being the two sides of a coin. It has always been the case that the oppressed have been so crushed that everyone believed their cause was hopeless yet their oppressors have eventually been defeated and forgotten. Where is apartheid South Africa and French Algeria? Eventually Israel will be remembered as a holocaust for the Palestinians.

www.shoah.org.uk...