Europe's Muslims and Jews Unite to Fight Food-Labeling Proposal

reply to post by ModernAcademia


I am all about equal treatment myself. When I want to kill someone, I ask them to give me a good reason not to, to this day they have all been able to stop me from killing them. I give animals that same chance, not one of them has been able to give me a reason yet. Maybe one day they will.

reply to post by thecinic


I've not attempted to attack you ad hom or otherwise , you are mistaken

No one is advocating hurting animals that are not used as food!!

Are you saying anything goes as long as it gets eaten ? Please be clear

And what if a majority were to consider you as food, do you not think you could at least be treated decently before you were put to death ?

That aside we are going way off topic here surely the issue is the hypocrisy two sworn enemies who relish the thought of worldwide Armageddon colluding to keep the fires of their depraved delusion stoked.

Originally posted by thecinic
reply to post by NadaCambia

 

Why shouldn't animals have rights, because they're less intelligent? Okay, maybe I'll kill and eat you. You don't strike me as the brightest of individuals.

Come and try it bucko!

Your ad hominem (Latin: "to the man"), also known as argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to link the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise.[1] The ad hominem is a classic logical fallacy,[2]

Does not work on me...

No animals shouldn't have rights because THEY ARE NOT HUMAN!!!

edit on 30-12-2010 by thecinic because: (no reason given)

It wasn't a physical threat, merely a hypothetical argument..

The point is this, you believe animals shouldn't have rights because they're less intelligent than us. That because these beings are less intelligent, we have a right to kill and eat them. With your beliefs in mind; I believe you to be less intelligent than me, and using your own flawed reasoning, I'd be therefore justified in eating and killing you. That's not an Ad Hom, 'bucko'.

While you're next on Dictionary.com I suggest you look up a logical fallacy. Because while I may have questioned your intelligence, my comments were not logically falacious in anyway. They're sound hypothetical arguments. If you believe animals shouldn't have rights because they're dumb, then an argument could be made that Mensa are morally justified in treating us average humans the same way we treat animals. Or we can start eating children and people with down syndrome.

Simply shouting "THEY ARE NOT HUMAN" isn't an argument. It's on par with an American war monger screaming, in reference to the slaughter of innocent Iraqis, "THEY ARE NOT WESTERNERS"

You strike me as the kind of person who if alive 200 years ago, would have been argueing in favour of the slave trade. I'm sorry to say.

Originally posted by thecinic
reply to post by The Djin

 

I'm not afraid of any MR. gray alien coming to eat me.
There is NO SUCH THING!!
Another ad hominem attack that does not bother me.
Just because it is ATS does not give anyone the right to be a blatant moron
telling people because of their opinion on animal rights
*wad if it a alians cames to eats u*
IS SILLY!!!!

edit on 30-12-2010 by thecinic because: (no reason given)

It's not silly. This is a hypothetical argument about ethics. Why this is going over your head I don't know.

Aliens not existing or not coming here to eat us doesn't invalidate the argument. This is elementary stuff we're talking about.

reply to post by NadaCambia


Childbirth isn't always voluntary, especially outside the West.

Some countries treat their women not much better than cattle.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by NadaCambia

 

Childbirth isn't always voluntary, especially outside the West.

Some countries treat their women not much better than cattle.

Well in that case then yes i'd say it's torture. But the way you worded it earlier was reffering to, or it sounded like you were refering to, voluntary birth. Which really can't be compared with involuntary killing or harm of animals.

Believe me, if a chicken strolled up into my kitchen, had somehow learnt English, and voluntarily offered to be sacraficed... well, i'd have the jerk seasoning out before you could blink!

I'm just waiting for these animals to develop higher consciousness and go through some sort of suicide epidemic, so I can justify to myself eating them

Originally posted by kallisti36
reply to post by ModernAcademia

 

You use thw word "torturing" rather lightly. Kosher and Halal animals are killed by a single cut through the kneck which severs all of the major arteries. The people who prepare Kosher and Halal meat go out of their way to treat the animal with dignity and if they fail to perform an adequate cut that kills the animal in moments, they take it as a failure and the meat is not Kosher or Halal. Cock-ups can happen in any form of slaughtering. Atleast with Kosher and Halal the slaughtering is done by a human with respect to the animal.

Respect to the animal? Sure.

Frankly, this reads like a post from Alpha Centauri. Or the Greys.

Look up "hanged, drawn and quartered" on Wikipedia. Then imagine a person who does that to you (which includes castration and evisceration, with entrails burnt before your eyes) has utmost respect for your glittering personality. Will that mean that the procedure will be enjoyable for you?

Also, from that post of yours, it appears if the freaking zealots failed to kill the animal in the prescribed way, they just feed it to the rest of us, unsuspecting normal folks. Great.

reply to post by NadaCambia

I'm just taking your reasoning up to it's logical conclusion here, but:

So if a person came up to you and offered himself/herself to you to be killed to be eaten, you'd have your seasoning out in a second?
This isn't some hypothetical, this situation has arisen already (several times in the last few years).
You might say "Oh, but it is illegal", but if it wasn't, would you be willing to?
And if it is illegal to kill/eat humans, if animals spontaneously develop higher consciousness, then so called "human rights and responsibilities" would probably be extended to them...and we'd be right back where we are.

This has really turned into some sort of vegetarian vs omnivore argument.
I never thought I'd feel weird for saying this, but I'm better than animals. I'm more intelligent then them, my society has developed further than them, and I have no qualms of using them for my benefit. Not to say that I've got some sadist streak and enjoy harming animals, but I seriously see no problem with such things as eating meat, and there is certainly nothing unnatural about doing this, and there certainly wasn't anything unnatural about this a couple thousand years ago when we hunted them down to eat them. The only difference I see now is that instead of finding it somewhere randomly in the wild, I've bred the animal for this purpose, and provide it with a safe, comfortable and relatively pleasant life. And I should feel bad about this?

Now if you were to talk about the inhuman, unhygienic, and torturous activities that go on in some slaughterhouses these days (including a few that claim to be halal and kosher, I'm sure, but certainly not restricted to them), I'd agree there needs to be some change or improvement. After all there is a reason why I don't buy pre-processed or packaged meats, only have my own animals, or sometimes go to the butcher nearby where I know (and can see, and HAVE seen) what exactly goes into the process of getting my meat in front of me. I do not feel the need (and I think it is wasteful) to eat meat at every single meal every day, but why shouldn't I enjoy my meat when I have it?

If one were to go ahead and say "I can't eat animals because it feels wrong to hurt and pain them", then slowly, as our understanding of the universe progresses, we won't be able to eat anything at all (except maybe minerals, unless they have micro-organisms on them! ). It has been shown that while they don't have a traditional nervous system like humans, plants can feel (visit the link for more details), so what now? If your argument would be "but that is a different kind of "feeling", plants don't have nerves!", then that suggests you'd be okay with eating an alien species (or one of the animal species here on earth) that perceive local shock or stress stimuli differently from humans?

reply to post by buddhasystem


Oh my god! Read people's treatment of fruit and vegitables! It is a travesty! People actually rip vegitables out of the ground alive, then proceed to bring them in the house, make them suffer for days before chopping them up!! I wouldn't treat a deer I hunt that inhumane, WTF are they thinking? Oh yeah, these people think they know everything, and because plants have no brains, they must not feel pain, or experience trauma. Funny how plants can respond to things such as positive reinforcement, or classical music, must be coincindence.

Muslims make up a small percentage of the uk population and make 10 times more meat than they can consume thus forcing a predomently christian country to eat this ritualy slaughtered meat and goes against all christian beliefs about eating meat slaughtered to idols,secondly this meat is being forced down children who share thier school with a small amount of muslim children,thats is totaly wrong to do that on so many diffrent levels,thats why muslims are fighting this and too sum extent jews as well becuase thier method is the same,but with jewish prayer over the animal,a catch 22 situation as the jews dont force this meat down our throats at every turn and keep it to themselves,what do we do

i think all food should be labeled to say 3 things on top of the other info that is on the packet

1.HALAL meat slaughtered
2.KOSHER meat slaughtered
3.NOT religously slaughtered

it is that bloody simple,i can think of why the dhimmi uk gov wont do this becuase of all those angry muslim slaghterman out of work,we cant upset muslims now can we,wake up people its happening in the uk and it will be your country and your kids eating this stuff,where are the animal right activists on this issue as they seem too have been away on holiday when this was happening and are bias low life scum who are more worried about a white woman throwing a cat in a bin than millions of animal being slaughtered slow and bloody painful deaths

There are other reasons why this should be banned becuase these companies who slaghter the animals also only employ muslims thus discriminating against non muslims

Originally posted by NadaCambia


Why shouldn't animals have rights, because they're less intelligent? Okay, maybe I'll kill and eat you. You don't strike me as the brightest of individuals.

No because they are less intelligent, but because in our society having rights mean having duties, what animal understand duty?


And intelligence doesn't have much to do, is more about force, there are a lot of animals who kill people because they are stronger, nothing more, in fact, is how most predatorian and social species live, with societies based in force, the strongers rule, and they eat the weaker.

We are not different, if we are stronger, we rule and everything else is prey.

Yes, of course, i know, i understand, what are you saying? that you could kill a guy and eat him because you are stronger, yes, totally, you can do it, but don't forget, we are a social species, we have rules, even common social animals have rules, but those rules usually applies only to the same specie and those who broke the rules are punished, and cannibalism is forbidden, at least in this time lol.

BTW, how many of you had killed an animal for food? actually killed one? how can i give a human treatment to some creature that is not human? it doesn't make sense, is going to die anyway, there is not a human way to kill.

Maybe i am only just another guy from a third world country, so a lot of people from the ooooh soooo advance and progressive societies of the first world would think im just a caveman with clothes, another not civilized primitive barbarian but i remember very well how in some family meetings we buy the animal alive and them kill it, skin him and put the meat in a barbecue.

When i was young i put a pig between my legs and hit him with a club, and after that we have a very good food, once in my godfather's farm i remember how the adults hang a cow from a hook and slice his throat, nice barbecue, in other i remember how i twist a chicken neck and after that my mom make a wonderful soup, so, because i had killed animals for food i know very well that all this retoric about fair and human treatment is bs, is senseless, in the end they would be dead and in my belly, and thanks to that i would live a little more, just like a lot of others animals do.

Of course, you can choose to act like a cow eating grass all day but i can't, well i love salads but i can't eat only that everyday for the rest of my life.

In the end, dead is dead, killing is killing, there are not one or another way, the destiny is always the same, and in a lot of aspects that is how things work in nature.

Intelligence in our species is great but sometimes humans become weird when too much thinking make them forget how nature works and try to enforce their will and opinions into others and even into nature.

What is going to be the next objective? a law where orcas will be killed if they eat a baby seal because they are so nice and pretty? the act where eating tofu will be mandatory for lions and hyenas?