What did the Catholic Church ever do to You?

Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by SmedleyBurlap

 

Listen to yourself. You are blaming the Catholic Church as a whole for individual actions.That's like blaming a parent for his/her Child's actions.

Lest we forget too it was the silence of the german people that permited Hitlars reign of terror. In their choice of convenience over right action, in condoning via silence what was happening in their nation, in sucumbing to fear instead of acting in faith, and in their worship of the frivolities and of the man himself, they doomed themselves.

Had they taken action to seek the truth, to demand political accountability, had they tried to become involved, stood against the man or rose up in defiance in other ways to support the victims or the allied, the consequences to both the victims and their own society may have been far less affecting and devestating.

and there were, consequences.

R

reply to post by Rosha

It is not a 'total fabrication'. That PDF is not a 'press release' and never claimed to be

.

The document itself says its from the Vatican press. Oh, was it the hidden Vatican press?

It is a document sourced from the Vatican press's own files with a date of 1962 not 1662. If you do not understand the function of the Vatican press, then you are uninformed and need to go do some research.

The Vatican press ether published it or not? Which one is it?

Details of the documents can be obtained by contacting the 'holy' see or by addresing your query to the canon itself for verification if you so choose to do the research. Write the pope himself..ask if they are false documents!

These document were supposedly translated into English. I doubt that the Vatican publishes anything in English. Actually you are the one making this claim. Follow though and provide me with this information, so that I can believe you.

I implore you not to trust even me..go do your own work..seek truth for your own being. I did and found this and many of the same kind of documents and more everywhere.

Your source from what you quote from is very sketchy. Could you post some real Vatican documents to back up your claim?

Priests need only swear to secrecy and they are absolved. That is the sum of that document.
These abusing murderous priests never faced criminal suit, never faced civil law, the rcc actively bribed and disuayed victims and maniplated them using the Gospels as their weapon of choice and the priests continued on abusing with immunity and impunity.

I dont believe this document. Actually the CCC states that if you do not repent for your sins you will be excommunicated from the church.

So too the pontiffs *are* accountable and responsible for all actions taken by priests *they employ* as they claim to be the father, of them , the children.

you are clueless as to the Hierarchy of the church. It is the pontiffs who are the servants of the lay (servants) of the servants of God.

I am sorry you have been duped..many good people are and were. Dont shoot the messangers though, we have no need or reason to lie....we are not the ones with the problem.

How have I been duped? I believe in the Church that Jesus himself found.The church itself represents Gods kingdom on earth. It is you my friend who has been duped.

Olive oil

Firstly, I am not your friend. I choose my friends. Ignorance is my enemy and you are one who is not only bearing it but in love with it.
Secondly, the people of God, are not served by tyrants and child molesters.

The vatican press office publishes in English, French, Spanish and Italian. It has since the advent of the new See press office in 1967.

The document is real, the document Crimen Sollicitationis has been prooved to exist and Clergy and ex Catholics themselves are standing up now all over the world to say so, to delcare their involvement and the role of the pope and the vatican in the cover ups.

Here is a link to the documents supported by clergy who are accepting accountability and responsibility and working towards healing progress..
www.bishop-accountability.org...

You will note that the link to 'Crimen Sollicitationis' is present on this page, and is in both english and latin.

No one but you seems to be denying this documents authenticity. The brave men, bishops and priests and nuns of various orders who are speaking out on this website, have fought and lost much to bring this information to light, yet they are only as slim hope, the only one left for the vatican and the catholic church even if they succeed in their mission.

I suggest you read them...at least try to acknowledge a more truthful reality..

I have also already given you two names to go research for yourself. The See press office and its holding - the vatican document library, and the pope himself. Here is his email address and contact details:

Pope Benedict XVI
Apostolic Palace
00120 Vatican City
[email protected] (for English correspondence)

The See's offices can be reacted via the vatican website.

I am not going to do any further leg work for you. I dont need to 'proove' anything to you. The truth speaks for and will attend to itself.

Over 177 million people, growing in number by 1042 per day, people from all over the world of all ages and dialects, we know we were abused, who by, and who covered it up.

We already know. It is you who do not wish to see or to know.

Its even widely publically known now:

From the BBC panorama special

Five years ago he ( the pope) sent out an updated version of the notorious 1962 Vatican document Crimen Sollicitationis - Latin for The Crime of Solicitation - which laid down the Vatican's strict instructions on covering up sexual scandal. It was regarded as so secret that it came with instructions that bishops had to keep it locked in a safe at all times.

Cardinal Ratzinger reinforced the strict cover-up policy by introducing a new principle: that the Vatican must have what it calls Exclusive Competence. In other words, he commanded that all child abuse allegations should be dealt with direct by Rome.

Patrick Wall, a former Vatican-approved enforcer of the Crimen Sollicitationis in America, tells the programme: "I found out I wasn't working for a holy institution, but an institution that was wholly concentrated on protecting itself."

And Father Tom Doyle, a Vatican lawyer until he was sacked for criticising the church's handling of child abuse claims, says: "What you have here is an explicit written policy to cover up cases of child sexual abuse by the clergy and to punish those who would call attention to these crimes by the churchmen.

"When abusive priests are discovered, the response has been not to investigate and prosecute but to move them from one place to another. So there's total disregard for the victims and for the fact that you are going to have a whole new crop of victims in the next place. This is happening all over the world."


These two men were the vaticans own people. Are they lying too?


Rosha.

reply to post by Rosha

Here is a link to the documents supported by BISHOPS.
www.bishop-accountability.org...

No one but you seems to be denying its authenticity.

Give me a break. These are not official Vatican documents period.

I have also already given you two names to go research for yourself. The See press office and its holdings, the vatican document library and the pope himself. Here is his email address and contact details:

Pope Benedict XVI
Apostolic Palace
00120 Vatican City
[email protected] (for English correspondence)

Oh, so now your asking me to write the pope? How comical is that?. You my friend are making the claim as to allegations and cover ups. The ball is in your court!!. I do not feel the need to "prove" to you or myself anything. You are the one who suggests foul. You prove it!

Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by Rosha

 

Here is a link to the documents supported by BISHOPS.
www.bishop-accountability.org...

No one but you seems to be denying its authenticity.

Give me a break. These are not official Vatican documents period.

The pages linked for you show they clearly ARE vatican issued!
Are all these bishops, clergy and lay catholic affiliates who are on the website listed lying too?
The men named in the article I posted (you didnt answer my question the first time)...are they lying too?

All these people here: www.bishop-accountability.org...
They are lying?
They are pretending false documents?

Are they?

Are we all wrong and Oliveoilis right?

You are in denial.

Its easily overcome if your willing to listen....not to me or even to them..try to listen to Christ himself.

I have also already given you two names to go research for yourself. The See press office and its holdings, the vatican document library and the pope himself. Here is his email address and contact details:

Pope Benedict XVI
Apostolic Palace
00120 Vatican City
[email protected] (for English correspondence)

Oh, so now your asking me to write the pope? How comical is that?. You my friend are making the claim as to allegations and cover ups. The ball is in your court!!. I do not feel the need to "prove" to you or myself anything. You are the one who suggests foul. You prove it!

I have written to him...why not? If as you say the pope is YOUR servant then he is honor bond as your servent to disclose everything he knows! Who do you think he is that you cant write him and have your say? I have writen several times. The bible tells us to fear God....not men.

Oliveoil I know it is difficult..and I am sorry if your faith is so linked with the vatican instead of God that you cannot see....but your blindness is not my problem...I didnt cause it..and I am not responsible for its maintanance - you are.

You want to talk about prooving things..
Then proove to me you claim that Jesus Christ, the risen son of God, is the founder of the Roman Catholic Church.
It is asked of us to challenge the spirits to see if they are of God...so I challenge.

Show me where, how and when Jesus of Nazareth told Peter to build an ogranisation called the Roman Catholic church.

Rosha

reply to post by Rosha

The pages linked for you show they clearly ARE vatican issued!

No, they dont.Show me the original documents, in the original languge.

Are all these bishops, clergy and lay catholic affiliates who are on the website listed lying too?
The men named in the article I posted (you didnt answer my question the first time)...are they lying too?

They are most likely speaking the truth, However , these again are isolated events. The Vatican, and the Church as a whole does not, repeat, DOES NOT condone this kind of behavior.

All these people here: www.bishop-accountability.org...
They are lying?
They are pretending false documents?

Im not saying that these accusations are false. Your putting words into my mouth!

I have written to him...why not? If as you say the pope is YOUR servant then he is honor bond as your servent to disclose everything he knows! Who do you think he is that you cant write him and have your say? I have writen several times. The bible tells us to fear God....not men.

Write to the Pope? your kidding me.

Oliveoil I know it is difficult..and I am sorry if your faith is so linked with the vatican instead of God that you cannot see.

My faith is "linked" to God. So is the Catholic Church.

Show me where, how and when Jesus of Nazareth told Peter to build an ogranisation called the Roman Catholic church.

I would really like to stay away from quoting scripture.Besides you have a secular mind, and would most likely not understand.

Originally posted by oliveoil
No, they dont.Show me the original documents, in the original languge.

Originally posted by Rosha
The vatican press office publishes in English, French, Spanish and Italian. It has since the advent of the new See press office in 1967.

I no longer believe there is any chance of any productive discussion in this thread. The OP clearly asked a question they did not want an answer to.

reply to post by Sinnthia


Yet he has failed to show me these documents. I am calling his bluff. They dont exist, other wise he would provide me proof. BTW, what exactly do you, can you contribute to this thread. Nothing I presume!

Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by sadwolf

 

Your gonna have to do better than that, perhaps some proof !!! reason and logic would be feasible, In other words BACK UP YOUR CLAIM!!

I am gonna go with this poster here:

Understandable that you may be angry. But the church as a whole has done more harm then good. Crusades? Witch hunts? Anti-gay views? How bout the altar-boy molestations? Personally i dislike them as much as any other religious group, due to the fact that they are basicly selling lies. At best, its a well-funded cult that tricks people in believing their propaganda on how to act, what to think, what is moral and what is not. (ie. Believe in what I tell you, or BURN forever) And really, depending on where you were born, your religious views whould be different. Can't argue with that.

Do you really need proof that the church priests didn't molest children? If so I really feel bad for you as that is just ignorant, and has already been proven many times over. Your church sucks just about as bad as many others the things they have done to people in my opinion validate my opinion, like stated already poster above summed it up for me.

Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by Sinnthia

 

Yet he has failed to show me these documents. I am calling his bluff. They dont exist, other wise he would provide me proof. BTW, what exactly do you, can you contribute to this thread. Nothing I presume!

You were given a link to a PDF file and instructions on how to assuage any doubt as to it's veracity. Plugging your ears and yelling it is not real seems less than constructive to your argument.

I have contributed to your thread. I directly answered the OP. Like I said, you are not looking for that. In fact, the only thing you seem to be looking for is arugment. I sense a lot of hostility in this thread. It is none of my business but I would suggest that if you are this angry about your religion, it might be time to just go sit by a lake and enjoy a cool breeze.

No one is trying to get between you and your god. You asked a question and people are attempting to address it amidsts a flurry of angry dismissals from the very person who asked. It seems less than genuine. Perhaps you might want to go back through the thread and see where I responded to the OP directly and you chose to ignore that because you were too busy accusing everyeone in this thread of lying about something.

Peace.

I was personally molested by high ranking members of the catholic church as a child.

Because of this i became incredibly traumatized.My sexuality became twisted and as a grown man i find myself to be a homosexual. Because of this they now tell me that i am going to burn in hell. Because I'm gay. Because they made me gay.

reply to post by Sinnthia

You were given a link to a PDF file and instructions on how to assuage any doubt as to it's veracity.

Its obvious that you did not look at that PDF file.This is clearly not an official Vatican document I challenge anyone here on ATS to prove the validity of that document. Why dont you put your money where your mouth is and prove this to me your self.

reply to post by MaximumTruth

I was personally molested by high ranking members of the catholic church as a child

Did you report this? If not I will be glad to do this for you. What Church was it? and who was the priest?You can u2u me if you prefer.Lets bring this out into the forefront. I will personally help you prosecute.

OliveOil...

Here is a simple question. Dare to answer it .

If you were shown enough evidence to clearly show the Catholic Church had a formal policy of protecting child molesters. Will you publically renounce them, or would you continue supporting them anyway ?

If you choose to ignore this question like so many others, I will repost it again and again until you either shut up or front up.


Time to show your true faith.

Originally posted by oliveoil
Give me a break. These are not official Vatican documents period.

How do you know?

It was an internal docment, held by the Vatican press office, an office that does not send out to public view every document that goes through its office internally, and this document was handed only to Bishops at the time it was printed and given out under strict papal bull. What evidence do you have to dennounce it?

An opinion, isnt evidence. The existance of the document and correlations between that document and supportive Catholic cannon paragraphs that are made evident within the writing, prove its authenticity.


R

Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by Rosha

 

Show me where, how and when Jesus of Nazareth told Peter to build an ogranisation called the Roman Catholic church.

I would really like to stay away from quoting scripture.Besides you have a secular mind, and would most likely not understand.

I have been following this thread for 28 agonizing pages now, looking for the place where you can answer this one simple question, Oliveoil. I asked it far earlier in the thread, as did several other people. For 28 solid pages, you have ignored and deflected this one simple question. You have been singularly unable to answer.

That proves you CAN'T answer it.

Since you can't answer this one simple question, why should I believe ANYTHING you have to say about the Catholic Church in your pitiful defense of the indefensible?

Originally posted by oliveoil

No, they dont.Show me the original documents, in the original languge.

I did..that is the *original document*, photocopied for distribution yes, but it is the original document handed out to Bishops of the roman catholic church! The latin version is there for you to read as well.

I do not have access to the vatican library..it is secreted even from all but a few external scholars and even then they are permited only certain documents, small time limits and no free access.
As a practicing catholic adherent, you may have better luck trying to access the source document...hence I gave you the addresses to go find out.

My own posts were met with silence, inclding that of my story of abuses suffered personally. They do not wish to know, they do not wish to hear...so I told God...and He heard.

A better question to investigate to me, would be who took it, who passed it on and how did it escape the vault at all

Are all these bishops, clergy and lay catholic affiliates who are on the website listed lying too?
The men named in the article I posted (you didnt answer my question the first time)...are they lying too?

They are most likely speaking the truth, However , these again are isolated events. The Vatican, and the Church as a whole does not, repeat, DOES NOT condone this kind of behavior.

Yet, it has, it is and does so, via continued secrecy, the John Paul and Ratzinger edicts that claim vatican self rule over Christs rule or our civil laws, the ongoing manipluations of their accusers, the many sackings and the silence of its laymen.

If that is not 'condoning' the cover up of the abuses..nothing is.
You can 'say' whatever you like. It is the actions that determine results.

177 million pls 1042 per day are not 'isolated events'. We are living evidence of an epidemic of illness, willful sinfulness and evil at work in your churches midst.

Im not saying that these accusations are false. Your putting words into my mouth!

No I am not..in fact it is you choosing to feed yourself from what little bread I have been given to share.
You told me the document is false..calling me a liar for saying it is true and so accusing me of breeching Gods command not to lie..a serious claim. The people on that website, also claim the document is legitimate, and so, without knowing their hearts or Gods will, you call them liars too.

Write to the Pope? your kidding me.

I talk to Christ daily....the pope is just a man...he has no authority over me, or the body (church) of Christ.
I dont worship idols.

My faith is "linked" to God. So is the Catholic Church.

the Lord knows his own.

Show me where, how and when Jesus of Nazareth told Peter to build an ogranisation called the Roman Catholic church.

I would really like to stay away from quoting scripture.Besides you have a secular mind, and would most likely not understand.
---

I have studied the scriptures and more, have had them opened to my spirit, heart and mind through Christ in ways I cannot begin to describe to a closed mind. This is not a boast or intended to put you down. Quite sincerely this is just me saying to you that not once, either through hard scholarship or through personal spiritual awakening with Christ has anything, ever, shown me that Jesus Christ sired or founded the pontificate of Rome.

My study, of history, the scriptures - all not some of them, of theology, politics and international law has shown me that the claim of ownership made over Christs church, claims to the authorities to act in Christs name, all claims made by the pontificate of rome in regards to Christs mission on earth, are lies.

If you wish to learn anything, then you need to study ancient roman history and understand first and foremost that the roman senate and later the emperors of rome were considered 'divine' during that era.

The *political system* of rome, was considered to be 'godlike' and directed - directly, by 'God'.
All human men serving in it were considered 'divinities' or 'divine' beings.

The *pontificate*, being an arm of that poltical body, was a name given to a collective body of the worshipers of Jupitor- their celestial deity and the "God head" of their faith.

Jupitor was the primary deity of the Roman pantheon of "Gods" - which was given to hundreds of godhead figures...most represented by planetary bodies or star systems.

Jupitor was that 'godhead' or -the "heavenly Father of Rome", directly inspiring the senate, and all divinites of the political system beneath that planet.

The existance of this patriarchal Jupitor/Father 'earlthy kingdom' political theocracy PREDATED Peters arrival in Rome and predated Christs birth, death and ressurection - the birth and growth of the pontificate had nothing to do with Christ _at all_.

THAT system of Jupitor/planet worship, which ironically today would be considered pagan and heretical by the synod and all the earlthy divinity concepts it projected, was what gave birth to the ponitificate of Rome as a political force in its own right. When, as the senate and romes political structure itself collapsed all that remained of that body was the cult of Jupitor and its ardents and they took power to themselves.

From the begining, the pointificate were the 'enforcers' of the "divine" senates will....not God's . Not the living Father of Jesus Christ's - will.

That role of enforcers only changed when they became the only remnant of political authority left in Rome and took power over the political institution nof roime as sole interpreters of Gods/ Jupitors authority and will for the decaying empire.

Since that time, those that said they served Jupitor/God, have sought to become God, as is evidenced by the appellation or title of 'holy father' given now to pontifs and the usurping and manipulation of the message of Christ, Truth, salvation, redemption and the gift of the Holy Spirit offered through Him.


Peter - the rock/stone of Christ.. upon Christs arrival, was aided and directed by Christ into revealing this false church for what it was, and as a result, like Jesus Christ, he was maytered by them in cohort with the Jewish Pharasies of the day who did not believe that Jesus Christ was the son of the *living* God/Father either. Neither believed that God was a real, preexistant, omnipresent living being, they could not acept they were not God, God was not a planet, and more, that God was not manipulateable.
They saw Peters views as 'heretical' as Christs, and equally a threat to their earthly power....so he too was crucified " In Gods Name".


Its that simple.
Its all historically researchable - for as long as it is and I am not speaking out of turn or making claims..its all there to KNOW....go research!

What remains, is that from the begining, the Pontificate has never had anything to do with Jesus Christ, or
sacredness, holiness, spiritual living or doing the will of the living God, only ever earthly control and power, and they exist today only as a monument of romes dark past, evidence of mans attempt to control God to be God, and as a means to control people through fear, dictators to those that will not fear any but the living God, and temporal deciders of which Godhead concepts will reign here on earth and which will not based on their whims and needs...not Gods.

If you do believe in Christ and HIS mission on earth, then dont even listen to me and my results...listen to what HE said...do what HE said! And HE said: ' know what is right in front of your face.and what is hidden will be revealed to you".

I didnt 'stumble' on or make up this informaiton about the roman pontif's history..it was revealed through *knowing*, and that knowing came through utilising the gifts given me to know - a mind a spirit and will.

The RCC does not have any authority to tell you whats in front of your face or what is acceptable or not for you to know, nor any right to interperate for you what is right in front of YOUR face.

Its not a mystical process to know what is right in front of your face...nor is it heretical to obey HIS words for and by yourself. Believing in someone elses ( the RCC's) interpretations of that truth, is not obedience to HIS words...it is spiritual and intellectual laziness....fear in action not faith.


I say for the last time. Jesus is Lord.



Rosha.

The reason OliveOil has not been able to answer any questions.............

Because whoever they are has zero faith in their religion or their own relationship with God. I am quite sure they are asking God but getting no reply.

What's it feel like OliveOil to fail to defend your own Church on every level. Does it make you wonder if God has abandoned you ? I mean leaving you to flounder around like an idiot in front of everybody must be pretty embarrassing. Maybe God just doesn't like you, maybe you have sinned too much.

I mean what God wants his followers to look like idiots ?

Does it make you angry,sad or depressed , or all of them at once ? Come on you can tell us.

reply to post by oliveoil

What did they do to me? Nothing, but they kill true Christians by the millions.
Can I prove it? I don't have any photo's or video material that I can present as prove.
But the Bible speaks about the whore of Babylon sitting on 7 hills (Vatican?)
This same Bible also teaches me about the people that pray to the Queen of heaven.

And so can I go on and on and the only conclusion that I can made is none other than, that the RCC is all evil and out of the pits of hell and their leader the devil in human form

reply to post by Rosha

The *pontificate*, being an arm of that poltical body, was a name given to a collective body of the worshipers of Jupitor- their celestial deity and the "God head" of their faith.

Jupitor was the primary deity of the Roman pantheon of "Gods" - which was given to hundreds of godhead figures...most represented by planetary bodies or star systems.

Amen to that!
I would like to point out a connection between Jupiter (Roman God), Zeus (Greek) and Amun or sometimes spelled Amen (Egyptian God) all being connected to the planet Jupiter. After every prayer do we give give homage to or ask acceptance from Jupiter by ending with the word, or name, "Amen"?

Popular among some theosophists, proponents of Afrocentric theories of history, and adherents of esoteric Christianity is the conjecture that amen is a derivative of the name of the Egyptian god Amun (which is sometimes also spelled Amen).

Wikipedia

Amen. In Hebrew is formed of the letters A M N, and is thus a simile of "Jehovah Adonai" together; it is one form of the Hebrew word for "truth". In common parlance Amen is said to mean "so be it".
But, in esoteric parlance Amen means "The concealed". Manetho Sebennites says the word signifies that which is hidden and we know through Hecataeus and others that the Egyptians used the word to call upon their great God of Mystery, Ammon (or "Ammas, the hidden god") to make himself conspicuous and manifest to them
...
Jehovah-Adonai is a new form of the ram-headed god Amoun or Ammon (q.v.) who was invoked by the Egyptian priests under the name of Amen.

COLLATION OF THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARIES