What did the Catholic Church ever do to You?

reply to post by oliveoil

So if I give the order for someone to commit a murder, am I innocent too?

These "Holy Wars " were inevitable. The popes gave their blessings of peace, not war. And besides the pope is not a 'go to guy' its the assembly of bishops who decides not the pope. The pope can not even order a pizza w/out the consent of the bishops.

reply to post by oliveoil


Then the Bishops approved of the Albigensian Crusade and the mass slaughter of civilians. They are all complicit in it. Or was this another 'inevitable holy war' against peaceful and non-aggressive Christians?

reply to post by oliveoil


How can you say "thats where it ends"

If a catholic nation invades and forcibly converts people en mass - does that not than give the Catholic Church greater power? Arent they the ones to benefit from it?

Isnt the Churchs control over the minds of men the ultimate form of control?

It was the smartest thing the Romans ever did by separating Church from state - government from papacy. The Vatican still exercized power yet remained conveniently 'outside' the picture when a nation oppressed its citizens or embarked on a crusade or a pogram. The vatican still appeared as a 'moral' authority even despite the fact that in each case they were the ones to profit.

Look at Eugene Pacelli for a prime example of papal complicity

He came from an illustrious aristocratic catholic family. He was the one most involved in the rewriting of Canon law in 1919 which made the church into a de-facto hierarchy, with the pope at the top and the regional bishops recieving orders from him via the papal nuncios. In 1933 as papal secretary of state he made the integral papal concordant with the Nazis which disbanded the Catholic Center party and a promise that Catholics would stay out of German politics with the assurance that Catholics would recieve special treatment from the Nazis.

Pacellis galavanting before WWII and the Holocaust completely enabled the power and control that the Germans eventually exercized over their own populations and the european countries they invaded. Not once did Pacelli (pope pius XII) issue an edict condemning the Nazis treatment of Jews.

Imagine the influence the pope could have had if he had just criticized the Nazis. The majority of Europe was catholic. Half the population of the greater reich was catholic.

Originally posted by oliveoil
I'm really tired of the same statement over and over. The Catholic Church never Killed anyone!!!

You are what's called a revisionist. You want to revise history to fit with your beliefs. Too bad the rest of us know better.

If you are going to make such a ridiculous comment please indicate who exactly did the killing. Was it the Pope? a bishop, a priest, a deacon, a nun, an alter boy, or the little old lady praying in the third pew. Please give me just one name.

We already gave you the names of countries and even names of specific atrocities. The Roman Inquisition for one. You even said yourself "for the most part" the Pope had nothing to do with the Inquisition, and "most" people involved with it were excommunicated, and both of those assertions I find completely ridiculous.

The Medieval Inquisition is a series of Inquisitions (Catholic Church bodies charged with suppressing heresy) from around 1184, including the Episcopal Inquisition (1184-1230s) and later the Papal Inquisition (1230s). It was in response to large popular movements throughout Europe considered apostate or heretical to Christianity, in particular Catharism and Waldensians in southern France and northern Italy. These were the first inquisition movements of many that would follow.

Torture could be used after 1252. On May 15, Pope Innocent IV issued a papal bull entitled Ad exstirpanda, which authorized the use of torture by inquisitors. Torture was undoubtedly used in the trial of the Templars, but is in fact not much found in heresy trials until the later fourteenth century. Torture methods that resulted in bloodshed, mutilation or death were forbidden. Also, torture could be performed only once. However, it was common practice to consider a second torture session to be a "continuation" of the first. Torture methods included hanging by the wrists, with weights suspended from the ankles.

en.wikipedia.org...

The article also says when the Catholics wanted to actually kill someone, they would release the heretic to the public, so then "officially" the Catholics never killed them, but the peasants undoubtedly would. Clever huh? Just like later tortures being "continuations" of the first episode, despite "officially" torture only being used "once." See how clever these guys are? At screwing you over? They're like anyone else with absolute power, they don't really give a damn about you.


If you don't like Wikipedia, do a search for "Ad exstirpanda" yourself, and be treated to a number of sources, from other Christian websites, to online encyclopedia articles.

i'd like to have back all the important literature they've destroyed, as well as brain cells

reply to post by dontreally


One thing that you are totally wrong about is the fact that the Catholic church does not 'forcefully' convert people.Please give me an example (use names)

reply to post by oliveoil


I don't think any of us know the names of peasants who were forcefully converted centuries ago. This is a disingenuous request.

Forced conversion in Catholic-conquered Iberia.

Charlemagne, crowned Emperor by the Pope, forcefully converted Saxons and Frisians.

The Church operated residential schools in Canada and forcefully converted children there.

60% of these schools were run by Catholics.

reply to post by bsbray11

Torture methods that resulted in bloodshed, mutilation or death were forbidden.

Your gonna have to do better than this.
Did you not see what I wrote. Here it is again. The Catholic Church never killed anyone.

reply to post by oliveoil


Mortality rates at the Church-run residential schools were as high as 50%. Attendance was mandatory.

Originally posted by EricD

Originally posted by Sinnthia

I never used the word "official" so why would you lie and say that I did?

I never said you did claim it was official, so why would you lie and make that claim?

You may want to be careful about bearing false witness.

Eric

Is this the kind of "honesty" your church encourages? I think I might be all about done with you. I never claimed you said I said it was official. I asked why you included the word when I never mentioned it.

Originally posted by EricD
Was I one of those people? I certainly hope not, as I never received my official 'Rep of the Catholic Church' id badge. Maybe it's in the mail.

Seriously, if people from the Catholic church are going to trip over everything they say to parse words and attempt to deceive, I am not sure what point they hope to make in FAVOR of the church.

There is an actual topic here. Please see if you can discuss it honestly. If responding to me is too much for some people, try not to do it.


Have a safe and Happy New Year all!
(even you)

Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by bsbray11

 

Torture methods that resulted in bloodshed, mutilation or death were forbidden.

Your gonna have to do better than this.
Did you not see what I wrote. Here it is again. The Catholic Church never killed anyone.

You didn't read my whole post.

They did kill people, they just "officially" relinquished the heretics to the public, who then would kill them.

Bottom line: heretics of the church died, and the Catholic Church was involved through the whole process, even torturing people by Papal order.

And do you seriously think no one ever died from having their bodies stretched, being hanged with weights tied around their ankles? Do you seriously think that no one ever bled from those practices, or suffered bodily harm? The article above even tells you how they gladly found ways around the "only torture them once" lie. For God's freaking sake, do you think people who are already TORTURING OTHERS would not also LIE???

Do you realize that what you are doing right now, is the same thing German Nazi sympathizers did after WW2 when they couldn't believe what their own country had done?

Not to mention the Catholic Church cooperated with the Nazis at that point in time too, and the current Pope was even a member of the Nazi youth....

More:


Vatican told bishops to cover up sex abuse. Expulsion threat in secret documents
Link: www.guardian.co.uk...
Vatican 1962 PDF link: image.guardian.co.uk...

If you want to start being semantic about statistics and exact numbers, you will be disapointed as there are none in solid form. Only estimates based on what little reportage there has been which is not a lot and is inconclusive. Brave Hearts Australia estimates the *total* global victim rate of the RCC is over 177 million not 150. And that is a "lowest expected" estimate. when you focus solely on catholic people confirmed to have been abused by catholics the number is 29,619,840 persons.

Given the RCC itself will not release fully (and unmolested ) all data pertaining to this issue for public scrutiny, we are left with this formula from "Clergy abuse/ Molested Catholics" ( link below ) and formulas like it.

"... a random survey of over 7,000 active Catholics in the U.S. and Canada found a closer ratio, that 1.7 percent of the females and 3.3 percent of the males had been sexually abused in childhood by a priest ..." (Katherine van Wormer, MSSW, Ph.D.) Psychology Today - Priest abuse male compared female victimization impact published May 20, 2010.

Using these numbers as a base whilst recognising that a substantial number of victims would have already left the church the following formula is used to calculate a low estimate of the number of sexual abuse victims in a given population of Catholics.

1.2 billion catholics
1.7% females abused = 10,404,000 [1.7% of 51.98% of the *Catholic* population]
3.3% males abused = 19,404,000 [3.3% of 48.02% of the *Catholic* population]

29,808,000 [combined males and females] Catholics identify themselves as having been sexually abused in childhood by a Catholic priest. with a further 26,657,856 persons reprting abuse being barred from having their cases heard BY THE VATICAN. Thats over 50,0000,000 CATHOLICS alone!

Loosely, this formula can be applied to any population.
For example:
Estimate number of Australian Catholics sexually abused in their childhood by Catholic priests.
Australia 5,239,000 million catholics (2006 Census)
Estimated number of survivors who have been "finalized" (completed church or legal process) in Australia between 1000 and 4000.
1.7% females abused = 45,422
3.3% males abused = 84,715

This measures over 130 thousand cases of *catholics* being abused by catholics in Australia with a further 117,123 persons cases barred from hearings by the Vatican - again.
.
Source of formula:www.molestedcatholics.com...
"Molested Catholics"

--


So..and even adding or attributing only a further modest 5% of all reported cases of assault in the general community to the church and its affiliates ( church run schools, homes etc) , the numbers jump staggaringly.
In parts of Ireland and in parts of Australia, entire generations of children and communities fell victim and the numbers are more like one in two not one in four of all children present at that time.

Also dont forget that this does NOT include CURENT victims..the ones being raped RIGHT NOW by RCC priests TODAY.

And...after considering that...then do the same population based formula for each of the 167 countries that have also had to endure Catholic missions' and the 'protection' of Catholic run institutions. Multiply that total figure by the anitcipated number of *unreported* abuse cases - a further 10-30% of numbers given - and you start to see for yourself where the numbers come from.

Molested Catholics writes that there are:

1,014 instances of sexual abuse per day by Catholic priests globally

42 instances of sexual abuse per hour by Catholic priests globally

Current estimates indicate that the highest proportions of sexual abuses today are to be found in Asia and Africa.



o n e t h o u s a n d instances per DAY!

How many more then in Asia and Africa where the children have no governement or law or parents to hold these hyenas accountable?

And keep in mind, these are only the figures for practicing CATHOLICS who reported active SEXUAL abuse.

This formula doesnt include other abuse forms such as physical and psychological abuses, mental torture, institutionalisation, exclusion, excommuncations, harrassments and murders of those who stood up to the vatican etc etc.. and doesnt include the catastrophic losses of faith, mentl illness, suicides, related deaths and family and social breakdowns, drug and alcohol abuse PTSD cases etc etc etc...

And these 'men' have the gall to claim 'persecution' saying now in self pity that the church is undergoing a "holy" "persecution"?

WE ( the children of this planet) ARE THE CHURCH..and we have been BEING persecuted by them for MILENIA!!

Some would call what is happening to the RCC today KARMA

I call it REAPING WHAT YOU HAVE SOWN.

Just as it was written!

They have sown confusion shame grief pain persecution despair sexual gluttony and hoplessness, greed, power death, idolitary fear fear fear and twisted logic and sin...and so they reap. NOT MY PROBLEM.

Thiss int about forgiveness....which is though Christ...this is about JUSTICE...and she is not blind..not deaf..and not a leaf falls without her knowing the true cause of its demise.

God KNOWS.

The true number of victims of the ROMAN catholic church will never be known to any except God..as too many hundreds have passed on, too many suicided, fled, or will never be able to speak of it. Those that do stand are harrassed and shamed or spiritually attacked and maniplated. The effects are too enormous and to constant to put it down to a few rogue priests...this is a systemic and epidemic situational affect of BEING IN the catholic church.

Thankfully I have no need for revenge or hatred..my faith is in God, not the false church....and I know..for certain..that God knows..and Christ will do.

The spell has been broken, the veil lifted...the time of this diseased fallen institutions reign of bloody terror, and those like it, is over.


Rosha

Why are you guys wasting your time?

This guy has made up his mind like the rest of the Catholics:

"I am right because I am right and I am right".

It's what modern Pharisees do.

Let the thread rot, he is content on his throne of uneducated "opinions" that are based on zero fact.

Militanty clueless people can be spotted when they write retarded tripe like this, for future reference:

Your gonna have to do better than this.
Did you not see what I wrote. Here it is again. The Catholic Church never killed anyone.

The Catholic Chruch itself doesn't even make such unruly dishonest statements.

Your gonna have to do better than this.
Did you not see what I wrote. Here it is again. The Catholic Church never killed anyone.

Yes..and I 'the military' doesnt kill anyone either...:/ This is such lame uneducated blindness...its sickening.

While you are not responsible for the existance of the fleece over your eyes, you are responsible for what YOU do once its existance has been pointed out.


Rosha.

Try here for more defleecing.
LINK: www.jesus-is-lord.com...





* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - The church is founded on Peter.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church. Peter was a man like you and me. Jesus called Peter Satan in Matthew 16:23 when Peter rebuked Jesus dying. When Cornelius tried to worship Peter, Peter responded, "Stand up; I myself also am a man." (Acts 10:26). The pope needs to remember Acts 10:26 when he has men bowing to him and kissing his hand like he is worthy of worship.

1 Corinthians
3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Matthew
21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected [Jesus], the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?



CATHOLIC TRADITION - Call priests father, e.g., Father McKinley.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS -

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.



* * * *

Ive nothing against Catholics, but I will to my dying day, have everything against a man who presumes to tell me He needs to pray to my creator for me; because I havent the ability.
Such a concept is contradictory to Jesus' teachings. Also I try to follow the 10 commandments. Praying to some woman named Mary, violates the first three commandments.

Also the "Kingdom of heaven is within you", why would you need a priest at all?

To me? nothing. The world? plenty, How many inventions did they hold back because they where tools of the Devil.? How many people did they kill because they said they where heretic? How many ideas did they destroy because they didn't fit the bill of the church? Screw the the Catholic church, anybody that spreads the word of the Lord with a sword comes up short in my book. They should give their billions to the poor.

My wife and I are Catholic, we have attended a catholic school since Kindergarden all the way though high school. We have been taught compassion, respect, honesty, and that priests are people who you can turn to for advice or help. Bernadette is a certified teacher with a masters in reading. We have been married (in the catholic church) for 18ys.

When we were first married Bernadette worked for the Albany Dioceses in NY. She was a teacher in one school for 2 ys. When that school closed because of enrollment she was asked to teach at another school. She taught there for another two years. Keep in mind that with her qualifications she could teach in a public school for 3 times the money. She was working for the second school for 15,000 yr.

After planing financially as well as mentally we decided to start a family, we had been married for 6ys. Bernadette had received 8 performance reviews over the corse of her employment with the Albany Dioceses, all of which were excellent! Earlier that same year I was diagnosed with an illness which forced me to go on disability. This in turn made us rely on the benefits she received for our medical care.

During this same year, the priest of this congregation was fired because he was facing sex abuse charges. A new priest was brought in and needed to make changes because the enrollment was down because of the issues of the previous priest. Bernadette was the teacher of the fourth grade. He asked her if she would help him by developing a program for an integrated class of the 4th and 5th grade. She is the highest qualified person in the school, and knows what needs to happen to make it work. She spent a great deal of time mapping this program out on paper (On her time! without compensation).

Bernadette had given notification 6mo. in advance of the fact that she was pregnant and would need a substitute for the first month of the next school year because she would be on maternity leave.

Two weeks before the end of the school year, the principal informs her that they eliminated her position and she was not going to be employed at the end of the year.

How can they, knowing that we have a baby coming in 2 mo. and she is our benefit carrier, Knowing I was on disability, and the fact that we were having complications with her pregnancy Knowing the time and dedication she has given to the church. How could they possibly do something like this.

It is not like she was pregnant out of wedlock. It was not that someone else had more seniority, there was no one who could match her qualifications, or Job performance. IT WAS THAT SHE WAS PREGNANT! and because enrollment was down they did not want to start the school year with a substitute teaching an integrated grade level. A program she set up for them! What should have happened, if this was what they were worried about, was have the third grade teacher take over the program, when Bernadette came back she could take over the third grade class.

We filed a grievance with the state labor board, we sat down with a mediator and started to discuss the issues, I had a priest sit across a table from me and LIE right threw his white collar. I was never so disgusted in my entire life. This was backed by the bishop. I was outraged at the lack of all the qualities that have been instilled in me through out my life. It all came down to the money. They could not give a # what happened to our family

We were told that we proved wrongful dismissal but not that she was let go because of civil right violation [being pregnant] I honestly don't know how else it could be proven. It was awfully big of them to cover us with benefits for six months.

If they had not I would be in debt for the rest of our lives. My son was born with Muscular Dystrophy and was in the neonatal ISU for the first month of his life.

So now tell me, how great the church is! They really care about people don't you think? Would you believe my wife still goes every sunday and donates. I personally have nothing nice to say, so I don't go.

reply to post by oliveoil


Well for one thing Jesus never established the 'catholic' church. He established 'His' church which is not the same thing. Jesus never established a 'denomination'...the church is the living embodiment of true believers in Christ and His gospel and has nothing to do with a specific denomination. Denominations are purely man-made and have often twisted scripture or taken scripture (God's word) completely out of context for their own ends. As scripture clearly states 'there is no name given under heaven or earth by which men must be saved' (referring to Jesus Christ). God is 'no respecter of persons' and no priest nor pope can stand in the way between you and God .. 'for ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God'....that is why He came to earth, died on the cross and rose again from the dead to offer us His free gift of salvation and eternal life but only if we choose it.