5 Myth about Islam

Originally posted by oozyism

Hadith is corrupted and is filled with man made errors just like the Bible, I won't bring it forward as facts, I would bring it forward as vague history, which needs to be cross references with other historic events for credibility.

But millions of people believe The Bible is the word of God, that Mohammad was deluded and that The Koran is nothing more than the rantings of a madman.

Who is right?

I don't know; I try to deal in facts and not blind leaps of faith and the unprovable is just that - unprovable.
And as a result the use of scripture, of any type, is in my opinion flawed and completly unreliable.

But we have drifted slightly off topic; the point I have been trying to make throughout this thread is that Muslims themselves should be at the forefront of efforts to dispel the myth's that you highlghted and which are propogated and promoted by elements within Islam itself.
Preaching to the likes of me will not stop the spread of these myth's.

reply to post by JohhnyBGood

In a discussion about myths in ISLAM, I don't quite see the relevance of what is happening in Iran. And "If this is legal in Iran - it is because it is considered an authoratative example from the life of Mohammed - and therfore cannot be argued against! " is definitely not a valid argument in any sense. I have certainly never defended Iran in any acts relating to this topic.
What you're suggesting is akin to saying "Since Russians face discrimination in Estonia, Ethnic Estonians must obviously hate russians, and it can't be argued against!"

The sources you quoted are certainly not "the authorities in Hadith", and your phrasing of it like that somewhat shows through that you aren't really in your depth when talking about such things. Hisham ibn Urwa was certainly no "authority" in hadith, and Bukhari and Muslim were collectors, not authorities in the subject. Yes, Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are certainly part of the most "trusted" collection, but this does not mean they are completely free from error- a fact agreed upon by all hadith scholars.


reply to post by Freeborn

Originally posted by Freeborn
Preaching to the likes of me will not stop the spread of these myth's.

But you ARE spreading these myths. I suppose the addition of the "thighing" thing rounded off your previous post nicely, so you decided to include it, thus propagating these myths. Unfortunately, the thighing thing is in no way true, but someone who just read your post, and skimmed over the ones responding to it, would not know about it, thus would also think it was true, and would continue spreading it.

Funny thing is, so many of these myths aren't propagated by muslims at all. Like the supposed obsession with virgins in heaven. Or the claim that muslims are allowed to lie if it furthers islam. Or this thighing thing. They're spread by detractors of Islam, or they show up in movies that attempt to be contemporary and having heroic CIA agents saving the world from evil terrorists.

reply to post by babloyi


islamreview.blogspot.com...
www.answering-islam.org...
www.wikiislam.net...'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Aisha

As stated previously, different times.

Originally posted by babloyi

Funny thing is, so many of these myths aren't propagated by muslims at all. Like the supposed obsession with virgins in heaven. Or the claim that muslims are allowed to lie if it furthers islam. Or this thighing thing. They're spread by detractors of Islam, or they show up in movies that attempt to be contemporary and having heroic CIA agents saving the world from evil terrorists.

edit on 20-12-2010 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

That is nonsense.
These myths are actively promoted by extremist Imams and other Muslim clerics and leaders to gain support and at times martyr's for their cause.
If it had not been mentioned in numerous suicide video's I would never heard of it.
There are countless video's, blogs, website's etc showing Muslim's expressing the very myth's oozy has highlighted and their intended audiences are other Muslim's!

Failure to recognise this is just another example of Muslim's failing to accept any responsibility whatsoever for the whole sorry mess and blaming anyone and everyone else apart from themselves.

Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by ShakeNBake

 

No where in the Bible does it say the new Testament is a replacement for the old Testament.

But

I know what it does say:

"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"

Funny, the above verse says Jesus didn't come to abolish the law.

Oozy,

"The OT was 90% allegory with some history thrown in. The NT was a history with a lot of commentary by Paul.

Both were re-written / redacted / hacked up early on to acheive political goals.

The major differences between mohamed and Jesus was this: Jesus never condoned killing any where in the NT.

I think its weird how sometimes people see the words of paul as equal to the "red letters" of Jesus though.

As I've said before, yall need a Reformation.

The "Popes' of the early church were similiar to your nut case imams nowadays. "KILL FOR GOD! / POLITICS!"

The church got squared up (finally). Yall have the benefit of technology to spread education. This should make of for the 700 year head start Christianity has on your religion.

reply to post by ollncasino

It wouldn't be hard to narrow it down. Ask him .. IF you think he can tell the truth. And then look up just how many mosques are in New Zealand. That'll tell you even more.

Originally posted by ToneDeaf
It is for this reason Arabic is encouraged as not to distort or corrupt any word.

The entire qu'ran is corrupt. It is claimed to be the word of God, and yet it is just a bunch of made up jibberjabber from a mass murdering liar and thief. It is full of errors and contradictions. It doesn't matter what Qu'ran a person reads ... it's all bunk.

Originally posted by oozyism
Are you suggesting Christians can't have 72 virgins?

Christians have no need of sexual orgys in heaven. They understand that there is no human body with sexual desires after death. The Christian Messiah - Jesus - said that once a person dies and they go to heaven, then they live like the angels, not getting married or giving themselves in marriage and not having children. The Muslim obsession with orgasm in the afterlife is myopic and earthbound in it's thinking.

And as far as the rest of your suggestion - that people can have what they want in heaven like as many cows as they want and sex with bunches of virgins - - when a person is in an etherial state and in the presence of GOD HIMSELF - then owning a stupid cow while floating around heaven is just not going to be on a priority list. That's pretty mundane and worldly in thinking.

Originally posted by oozyism
I have supplied evidence.

Actually you haven't.

You just keep repeating over and over about the Qu'ran being everything in Islam, and then you cherry pick the Qu'ran (which contradicts itself over and over) to make a square peg (your idea) fit in a round hole (reality) .. You have been totally ignoring the massive amount of evidence that has been posted here that completely destoys your opening post and completely destroys the notions you presented.

As was said earlier by another poster ... Islam itself is a myth. It has myths within myths. It has many interpretations. For oozyism to claim that it is 'qu'ran alone' .... that's absurd and completely wrong. That's no different than sola-scriptura christians claiming that it's 'bible alone' - all the while priests and ministers are interpreting the bible to fit their own brand of christianity.

Originally posted by rabzdguy
Also whats with the worship of the black rock?

Muhammad stole it from the pagans. At that time they worshipped a couple of rocks on a hill. They'd run between the rocks for good luck and for pagan worship. Nothing in Islam is pristine. It was all stolen from the pagans, the Jews, the Christians, and Zoroastarianism. (and when muhammad stole it all .. he got a lot of it wrong ... example: Abraham was never in Mecca)

Originally posted by JohhnyBGood
this seems allways to be the case with debating Muslims, lying, obfuscating , denial, evasion - this is just pathological!

Allowed and encouraged to LIE - Lie to non believers and lie about your faith.
Qur'an (16:106); Qur'an (9:3); Qur'an (40:28); Qur'an (2:225); Qur'an (66:2)
Qur'an (3:54); Hadith: Bukhari (52:269); Bukhari (49:857); Bukhari (84:64-65)

reply to post by Freeborn

Nope. Not nonsense at all....these myths are said by maybe one person (and usually not even that), and then picked up by anti-islam media and paraded around as "proof" of some sort of evil. Just like the 3 links you just posted as "proof" of the thighing.They ALL reference the same original article, based off an anti-islam hate website, with no proof at all, except a very suspect audio file (also hosted on an anti-islam hate website), with nothing verifying it. I mean, heck, I could record a fake conversation with the help of a friend of mine, host it somewhere, and then claim it is an undercover exposé showing the Pope calling for the mass slaughter of all Bulgarians.

You know the first time I heard the "taqiyya" nonsense? From an anti-muslim source. And I was surprised, until I actually checked up the facts, which in no way line up to what the islam-detractors had been putting on.

And are you SERIOUSLY telling me that all those suicide bombers and terrorists are did what they did because someone told them that they'd get 72 virgins in heaven? Don't be absurd.

I remember a documentary on TV a couple months back, showing a terrorist training camp they had discovered in Afghanistan, which had a portion painted up to show the pleasures of heaven. It had the gardens, the fruit, the animals, the streams, and even drew the people (so you can't use the excuse that they didn't want to display drawings of people), and guess what...no 72 virgins.

reply to post by oozyism


Oozyism, great post, but you have left out an extremely important practice of all muslims. The practice of abrogation in Islam. "The concept of "abrogation" in the Quran is that Allah chose to reveal ayat (singular ayah – means a sign or miracle, commonly a verse in the Quran) that supercede earlier ayat in the same Quran. The central ayah that deals with abrogation is Surah 2:106:

None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?"
The Problem of Abrogation in the Quran
Farooq Ibrahim

Here is the link if you want to read the whole article. www.answering-islam.org...

Another good link for verses which have been abrogated is at:
www.freerepublic.com...

reply to post by babloyi


Of course not all Islamic terrorists are motivated by thoughts of being rewarded with 72 virgins.
Nothing is that simplistic.

What I am saying is that Islam is the source of the myth and elements within Islam maintain and promote the myth to further their own agenda's.
MSM merely repeats what these elements within Islam state.
And of course that also suits the agenda of those that control MSM.

Yet again another example of the failure to accept any responsibility at all and heap blame on anyone and everyone else.

Reply to post by Freeborn

But how is some fabrication about 'thighing' created by an anti-islam site the fault of Islam?

See, most of these issues are from obscure texts that nobody really cared about at all before they were used by anti-islam propagators as a 'point' against Islam. It'd be like using texts by St. Augustine to prove that Christianity is misogynist.


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reply to post by babloyi


And how do you KNOW it's a fabrication?
There are sources that report it, there are sources that don't report it.
You choose not to believe it because it doesn't say so in The Koran, that doesn't prove that the other sources are wrong, it's pure blind faith - nothing more, nothing less.

And none of that alters anything, elements within Islam propogate the myths for their own ends and the majority of Muslims do nothing about it and would rather maintain the illusion of bearing no responsibility whatsoever and would rather blame anyone or everyone else rather than accept any responsiblity themselves.

ETA.

As for St Augustine he may be a Chrisian misogynist, I have no doubts there have been and still are disturbing elements within the various Christian denominations.

reply to post by JohhnyBGood


I've been looking into this turns out A’isha was 9 years old, seems Mohamed was a dirty kiddy fiddler.

The Taliban encouraged families to marry off their daughters as young as eight years old. (Voices Behind the Veil p.110)

8??? seriously, so much for grass on the pitch huh.

In Iran as of June 2002 it is legal for a 9 year old girl to marry with her parents’ permission. Voices Behind the Veil p.136-137

Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed?

Sick!

1. Sahih al-Bukhari 810-870 A.D. 256 A.H. 1a. "Narrated Hisham’s father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married ‘Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old." Bukhari vol.5 book 58 ch.43 no.236 p.153. 1b. The same points are in Bukhari vol.5 book 58 ch.43 no.234 p.152. 1c. "Narrated ‘Urwa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with ‘Aisha while she was six year old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). Bukhari vol.7 book 62 ch.60 no.88 p.65 1d. Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet was screening me with his Rida' (garment covering the upper part of the body) while I was looking at the Ethiopians who were playing in the courtyard of the mosque. (I continued watching) till I was satisfied. So you may deduce from this event how a little girl (who has not reached the age of puberty) who is eager to enjoy amusement should be treated in this respect. Bukhari vol.7 book 62 ch.115 no.163 p.119 1e. "Narrated 'Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) I never remembered my parents believing in any religion other than the true religion (i.e. Islam), and (I don't remember) a single day passing without our being visited by Allah’s Apostle in the morning and in the evening." Bukhari vol.5 book 58 ch.44 no.245 p.158. Therefore ‘Aisha either was not born yet or else not very old or not born yet when her parents became Muslims. This is consistent with her being a child when her marriage with Mohammed was consummated.

So he at least waited until she was 9, makes it all the better doesn't it?

Reply to post by babloyi

.How do I know? Because there is no proof. What is Islam? The Quran and Hadith. And neither have any nonsense about 'thighing'. The ONLY source you are able to find on this is from anti-islam sites. And you are claiming that muslims are propagating these myths? Sorry, no dice.


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Originally posted by babloyi
Reply to post by babloyi

 

.How do I know? Because there is no proof. What is Islam? The Quran and Hadith. And neither have any nonsense about 'thighing'. The ONLY source you are able to find on this is from anti-islam sites. And you are claiming that muslims are propagating these myths? Sorry, no dice.

 

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Here are some quotes by the supreme spiritual authority of Iran regarding sexual mores - deemed permissible by the example of the 'holy one' - once again you are being shown to be lying about Islam!

Quotes by Ayatollah Ruhollah Musawi Khomeini, the mentor of present Iranian president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

“A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual act such as forplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed.”

Update:
Source – Ayatollah Khomeini’s Religious Teachings on Marriage, Divorce and Relationships – Parvin Darabi – Dr. Homa Darabi Foundation

A man can have sex with animals such as sheeps, cows, camels and so on. However, he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village; however, selling the meat to the next door village should be fine.”

Update: Quote is from Khomeini’s book, “Tahrirolvasyleh”.


one commits the act of sodomy with a cow, an ewe, or a camel, their urine and their excrements become impure, and even their milk may no longer be consumed. The animal must then be killed and as quickly as possible and burned.”

Update :

Source: The Little Green Book: Sayings of Ayatollah Khomeini, Political, Phylosophica, Social and Religious, with a special introduction by Clive Irving, ISBN number0-553-14032-9, page 47 Source: Homa

deathby1000papercuts.com...

reply to post by JohhnyBGood


Interesting, one rule of the thumb should be, if you want to no what Islam and practices are about just follow what Islamic nations do.

The way the treat their own and the laws of Islam they follow in everyday life.

Then we can get a better idea of what Islamic believes are about.

In Islam women are lowest than animals, that is why Sharia law is implemented in many Islamic countries.

edit on 20-12-2010 by marg6043 because: (no reason given)

reply to post by babloyi


Yes there is evidence that suggests it may have happened.
You say there isn't because it upset's your sensibilities and take on things.
Just because it isn't in The Koran doesn't mean that it isn't true.
Nothing will ever convince you that it might be true, I think it could be true.
Let's just agree to differ otherwise we'll spend forever going round in circles and I really can't be bothered.

But what about the myth's oozy highligted in the OP.
Do you still deny that the majority of these originated from elements within Islam itself and that certain elements within Islam help maintan these myth's to this day?

reply to post by JohhnyBGood

Originally posted by JohhnyBGood
Here are some quotes by the supreme spiritual authority of Iran regarding sexual mores - deemed permissible by the example of the 'holy one' - once again you are being shown to be lying about Islam!

What has Islam got to do with Ayatollah Khomeini? How am I lying? So since the Pope covered up sexual abuse scandals (thereby implicitly condoning them), this means that molesting little children is okay for all of Christianity? Because that is the kind of logic you are propounding. I doubt you'll find even many Shi'ites who follow those teachings.

In fact, it is very interesting that this famous fourth volume of Tahrirolvasyleh, which supposedly has all these quotes, has never been referenced properly. These passages have not been found in it.


reply to post by Freeborn

I think you'll find my sensibilities fairly hardened, and fact rarely comes to attack it. There are many things that many people find distasteful about Islam, and on the rare occasion that it has a factual basis, I face up to it. For example, the method of slaughtering animals.
I've seen it done. I've assisted in doing it. People find it distasteful, but I find it hypocritical to be happily eating meat, but then when you come in contact with the animal actually being killed, they find it distasteful- despite the fact that it is probably LESS painful for the animal (properly doing it, the animal should bleed out immediately, and thus have no blood in the brain, however, it does "look" gruesome, so people are finicky about it).

So the problem here isn't my sensibilities. It is that there is no proof. I'M NOT ONLY TALKING ABOUT THE QURAN. There is no authentic hadith, no proof, no nothing.

THE ONLY PROOF OFFERED TO SHOW THAT MUHAMMAD PARTOOK IN ANY SUCH ABSURDITY AS "THIGHING" IS FROM A SUSPICIOUS AUDIO FILE HOSTED ON AN ANTI-ISLAM SITE.

Are you saying this is your evidence to prove that it occured? We can stop the circle right here, I just wish it to be clarified: You are suggesting that it "might have happened", based solely on the evidence of a suspicious audio file, in a language you can't understand, hosted on an anti-islam site, supposedly recording some sort of muslim dialogue, without providing any references to any hadith, or any history, or any author?

I'd be happy with an answer to that. The circle will then easily stop.

What about the myth that many muslims are brainwashed violent bigoted morons incapable of living in modern society? Oh wait, its true..

About eight-in-ten Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan (82% each) endorse the stoning of people who commit adultery; 70% of Muslims in Jordan and 56% of Nigerian Muslims share this view.

Muslims in Pakistan and Egypt are also the most supportive of whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery; 82% in Pakistan and 77% in Egypt favor making this type of punishment the law in their countries, as do 65% of Muslims in Nigeria and 58% in Jordan.

When asked about the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion, at least three-quarters of Muslims in Jordan (86%), Egypt (84%) and Pakistan (76%) say they would favor making it the law; in Nigeria, 51% of Muslims favor and 46% oppose it.

Pakistani Muslims are the most supportive: 85% say they would favor making segregation of men and women in the workplace the law in their country. A narrower majority (54%) of Muslims in Egypt also support making gender segregation the law in their country.

Opinions are more divided in Jordan and Nigeria. Half of Jordanian Muslims favor gender segregation and 44% oppose it. Among Nigerian Muslims, nearly the same percentage favor making segregation of men and women in the workplace the law in their country (49%) as oppose it (48%).

Source




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Originally posted by babloyi

What has Islam got to do with Ayatollah Khomeini? How am I lying? So since the Pope covered up sexual abuse scandals (thereby implicitly condoning them), this means that molesting little children is okay for all of Christianity? Because that is the kind of logic you are propounding.

It's the same logic that somehow because there are radical elements and extremists who are Muslims, that then somehow all Muslims support terror and are somehow condoning it.


It's like watching a video of the Godhatesfags guys or some other redneck, right-wing Christian nutter.... and then saying "Well this is what Christianity is, this is what the religion preaches, hatred towards soldiers, any other religion and just about everyone else, What a violent and disgusting religion"

This whole issue is insane.

There are good and bad people in every country and every religion.

It wasn't that long ago in the west that we didn't have "age of consent" laws and people got married at 12-13 and probably younger.


I don't see the point in going over it until people are blue in the face.

Some sources say one age, others say something else.

Depending on your agenda, you'll choose which source you post regarding ages and quotes.

As I posted the other day and many times before, there are as many, if not more quotes in the bible regarding killing non believers and so on.

Religion is ultimately a violent and terrible thing.

Not at It's core.... but when men write their own interpretations and edits, and revisions are made to books... and additions, it becomes corrupt and worthless and divides more than it unites.

Most people just want peace and security for the people they love and for themselves.

That's it.



I like the elephant analogy.

there are four blind men who discover an elephant. Since the men have never encountered an elephant, they grope about, seeking to understand and describe this new phenomenon. One grasps the trunk and concludes it is a snake. Another explores one of the elephant's legs and describes it as a tree. A third finds the elephant's tail and announces that it is a rope. And the fourth blind man, after discovering the elephant's side, concludes that it is, after all, a wall. Each in his blindness is describing the same thing: an elephant. Yet each describes the same thing in a radically different way.

If all people, religious or not worked together then we would be much better off... it would benefit everyone.

Oh well....