5 Myth about Islam

Originally posted by rabzdguy
You see Ooze once politics gets involved into religion..it fails. Religion= God ways ,Politics= Mans way.
Its impossible for them to mix and work together...no matter what you think or say. It have never worked and never will.

What do you mean it hasn't worked>?

Please clarify.

Sharia law.
You show me 1 political government that isnt corrupt, and you want politics within islam? If anything you want POLITICS OUT.

I would probably cry blood if i saw another humans hand/feet/throat cut off. Him begging for forgivness, shaking, crying, then being sliced is not something i can live with if i saw it upfront. So am i soldier of the devil for not agreeing in your torture for pitiful crimes such as theft.? And not agreeing with the sharia law? Is it my fault i feel such emotion and feel compasionate about others, or is the devil tricking me?

Originally posted by rabzdguy
I would probably cry blood if i saw another humans hand/feet/throat cut off. Him begging for forgivness, shaking, crying, then being sliced is not something i can live with if i saw it upfront. So am i soldier of the devil for not agreeing in your torture for pitiful crimes such as theft.? And not agreeing with the sharia law? Is it my fault i feel such emotion and feel compasionate about others, or is the devil tricking me?

It is the devil tricking you to not understand the OP and just express your emotions.

I have nothing against your emotions, but emotion and logic usually don't go very well together.

Everyone has diffrent designs in fingertips, everyone has diffrent personalitites and external looks. EVERYONE also has their own minds and opinions. Can you tell me when to eat or go to the bathroom? No, only i can since its my body and i know when to eat or go bathroom. The same goes with the mind, it is impissible for you to know why people dislike something, or like it. There is a reason why people adhere and people dont, your not suppsoed to know why people think as they do. Only the person knows. The materialisation of the body is unique in every formailty, external and internal. Get used to it, everyone is diffrent and you will never understand it. Thats why i think religion fails, it tries to teach a person, when they are the teachers.

Love emotion = peace . Hate emotion= death/destruction
Logically love is the better emotion. So its logic to love more than hate.

Originally posted by rabzdguy
Love emotion = peace . Hate emotion= death/destruction
Logically love is the better emotion. So its logic to love more than hate.

You can't love someone who killed your son.

Nor can you love someone who stole your land, and destroyed your lively hood.

Emotions need to be controlled.

Sometimes people love murderers, that is what has caused so much mess in the world.

Originally posted by SeaWind
Or how about his charming story of how Muhammad spotted his favorite wife, Aisha. Aisha was only six years old when Muhammad decided that he must possess her as his wife. Muhammad was a 50 year old man at the time. Aisha's father refused, saying Aisha was too young. Muhammad was forced to wait until Aisha was nine years old, before he was allowed to marry her.

It's not certain how many wives Muhammad had, accounts vary. He had at least 14 different wives. Divorce was very easy for a Muslim man -- he was limited to only four wives at any one time. If he saw a woman he wanted to marry, he could easily divorce one of his least favorite wives to make room for the new wife.

Of course, a Muslim man could have as many SLAVE girls as he wanted. Slave girls did NOT count.

I have 2 things to say

First of all it was ABU-BAKR who BEGGED Muhamed(PBUH) to marry Aisha. He refused to marry Aisha, but Abu-Bakr wouldn't stop. This did continue for 3 years. It was after 3 years that Muhammed(PBUH) had finally agreed to marry Aisha.

Second of all, as I am sure you know, at that time men had many wives,mostly, because of the high infant mortality rate.To insure that they would have children who survived men would have many wives. This wasn't started by Muhammed(PBUH) at all it had been going on long before him.

Originally posted by binomialtheorem

Originally posted by SeaWind
Or how about his charming story of how Muhammad spotted his favorite wife, Aisha. Aisha was only six years old when Muhammad decided that he must possess her as his wife. Muhammad was a 50 year old man at the time. Aisha's father refused, saying Aisha was too young. Muhammad was forced to wait until Aisha was nine years old, before he was allowed to marry her.

It's not certain how many wives Muhammad had, accounts vary. He had at least 14 different wives. Divorce was very easy for a Muslim man -- he was limited to only four wives at any one time. If he saw a woman he wanted to marry, he could easily divorce one of his least favorite wives to make room for the new wife.

Of course, a Muslim man could have as many SLAVE girls as he wanted. Slave girls did NOT count.

I have 2 things to say

First of all it was ABU-BAKR who BEGGED Muhamed(PBUH) to marry Aisha. He refused to marry Aisha, but Abu-Bakr wouldn't stop. This did continue for 3 years. It was after 3 years that Muhammed(PBUH) had finally agreed to marry Aisha.

Second of all, as I am sure you know, at that time men had many wives,mostly, because of the high infant mortality rate.To insure that they would have children who survived men would have many wives. This wasn't started by Muhammed(PBUH) at all it had been going on long before him.

Ok correction needed for both of you. First she was 7 years old and Mohammad at the time was 53 not 50. She did not ask him or beg him to marry her it was she that was approached. It was a political marriage at the time. Even mohammad noted how young she was when approached with the idea. There solution was he waited untill she was 10 years old thats the 3 yrs he was talking about. Now in beduin coulture it was not unusual for a betrothal to occur at that age. The general rule was wait until the first period at which point she would be a woman. Apparently grew up alot quicker back than.

reply to post by dragonridr


History tells us she was 18.

But if people want to argue she was young, it doesn't really matter.

Today, right here in NZ, I have seen 12 year olds have sex with 35.

Marriage is permitted at the age of consent.

Our Father who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us,
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.

Edit: Mods this isn't of topic if you think about it.

"The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew [again] and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted me to do. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes, and Allah's blessing and a good luck." Then she [mother] entrusted me to them and they prepared me. Unexpectedly Allah's messenger [Muhammed] came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age." Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234

"My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and began leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammed was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old." Tabari IX:31

"The Prophet said, 'A virgin should not be married until she is asked for her consent.' 'O Apostle! How will the virgin express her consent?' He said, 'By remaining silent.'"

"I participated in the Ghazwa [raid] with the Prophet. I said, 'I am a bridegroom.' He asked me if I had married a virgin or maiden. I answered, 'A matron.' He said, 'Why not a virgin who would have played with you?? Then you could have played with her.' 'Apostle! My father was martyred and I have some young sisters, so I felt it not proper that I should marry a young girl as young as them.'" Bukhari V4B52N211

Muhammed was a crusty old pervert, today known as a pedophile.

reply to post by FarArcher

You claim Mohammad was a pedophile

How old was Mohammad's first wife? How long did he stay with her? Who was older, Mohammad or his first wife?

dizzy, get a grip!

When you're a kid, and become a boy toy to an older woman, that's one thing.

In your fifties, and all about a nine-year-old, you see, that's called a pedophile.

And that doesn't even count the women that were taken as booty and raped. Funny. He never had a son. And one of those women he raped, poisoned him, by his own word.

Odd, that. Prophets were supposed to be able to discern such things.

Real ones, that is.

And your "history" is BS.

You don't exactly know what you're claiming, so you may wish to avoid this thread.

reply to post by FarArcher

You claim Mohammad was a pedophile

Define Pedophile: "an adult who is sexually attracted to children" (GOOGLE)

How old was Mohammad's first wife? What was the age difference between Mohammad and his first wife?

Common, pass the test, don't worry, we will get to Aisha, first answer the above question

What in hell does one wife - any wife of anyone - have to do with a pervert being a pedophile?

You aren't THAT dense.

are you?

This is exactly why I hate pointing out errors in posting fabrications or outright lies. You said historically Aisha was 18.

Back it up.

I gave you what she gave the world in her own words.

Ever hear of the Hadith?

May want to read it and THEN come back on a thread of this topic.

Nah.

Don't want you getting confused with facts . . .

reply to post by FarArcher


Answer the question.

If that question is too hard for you, then answer this question:

Why is the previous questions so hard for you to answer?

I will repeat

We will get to Aisha eventually, first answer the questions.

How old was Mohammad's first wife? What was the age difference between them?

Mo's first wife was actually an older wealthy catholic ex nun.

There is a great deal of evidence in the Hadith to suggest that Mo was in fact a sufferer of TLE temporal lobe epilepsy:

...........................

For Muslims, all actions of Muhammad constitute law. He cannot be held accountable for his actions. He was entitled to marry or have sex out of marriage with as many women as he wished. He could raid civilians, kill unarmed men, loot their properties and take their women and children as slaves and even rape them. He could assassinate his critics and torture them to make them reveal where they had hidden their treasures. He could have sex with children. He could lie and deceive his opponents. He could massacre his prisoners of war cold-bloodedly. None of that bothers his followers. At first they deny all of the above charges vehemently, accusing you of maligning their prophet, but once the evidence is presented, they suddenly change tactic and defend him, justifying his evil deeds, the very deeds that they had outrageously denied. For Muslims, Muhammad’s actions are not measured by what we humans know as right and wrong. Rather he is the standard, the measure of right and wrong. As the result, if a crime was committed by Muhammad, that crime becomes a holy deed and is emulated by his followers unquestioningly. Muslims are capable of committing the most atrocious acts of indecency and savagery with clear conscience, because it is sunnah (performed by Muhammad).

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reply to post by FarArcher

It isn't one wife. In fact, Aisha was the ONLY wife of the Prophet that hadn't been a widow before. All the others were "matrons".

There is definite dissension about the actual age of Aisha when married, and while I'm not sure about oozy's statement of 18, I'd say she was most definitely not 9, and there is ample evidence of that.

There certainly ARE hadith that say she was, but the problem is, that one of the narrators of those hadith is considered untrustworthy for that time, although this was generally overlooked (for reasons I will explain in a bit).

However, if you use other sources, it becomes very evident that Aisha was AT LEAST 12-13 at the age of marriage, and could possibly have even been almost 20.
Here are is a link for your perusal (first one I found on google, I'm sure you can find better, but this explains the basics):
realdeen.wordpress.com...

See, the problem is that for a long time after the shia-sunni split after Muhammad's death, both groups used whatever means necessary to one-up the other. On the Shia side, Aisha is seriously hated, because of her participation in a campaign against Ali after Muhammad's death. They tried to downplay her role in Muhammad's life, show her bad side, and even deny that she was ever married to him. In response to this, Sunnis try to increase her role in Muhammad's life, make her his favourite wife, downplay the fact that she was previously betrothed to be married to someone else (the marriage was then broken off because the husband refused when she became muslim) and in some weird sense of what is important, show her "purity" by attempting to show that she was a pure virgin and so on.

Considering that the main body of hadith literature and scholarship, and histories of Islam are from the Sunni side, lots of hadith and histories that showed her to be older were surpressed, and some weaker ones that showed her to be younger were made more prominent.

PS: Besides a stormy start, and a whole lot of bickering and hatred that spanned for pages and pages, I'm happy to see that this thread has calmed down into an atmosphere conducive to discussion and debate. Yay ATS!

While I disagree with oozy insofar as his total rejection of Hadith, I agree that if one is wishing to take away lessons from the hadith, it should be done with proper understanding and reading, comprehension of the idea behind the historical context, and making sure of it's authenticity, before applying it appropriately to modern day problems.

For example, there is one hadith that relates how Muhammad passed by a group of people who were grafting plants, and was surprised by this and didn't understand it's use. Seeing this, the people abandoned grafting, and the yield that year was poor. When informed about this, he said something like "If there was advantage to it, they should've done it, for it was just my personal opinion, and there is no need to go after my personal opinion".

Another hadith relates how Muhammad was offered some reptilian meat for food, and he said something like "I personally won't eat it, as I dislike it, but there is nothing unlawful about eating this".

So again, even if taken in historical context, one must be able to separate narrations that speak of Muhammad's personal opinions and habits (eg. "Vinegar is a good condiment") from those which he says were from God, or relating to all muslims (eg. "Seek knowledge even if you have to go as far as China, for seeking knowledge is a duty on every Muslim").

reply to post by babloyi


For Sunni muslims these are considered completely authoratative hadiths - the Shia may disagree, but then thier record of pedophilia is pehaps even worse! en.wikipedia.org...

�Aisha played with dolls while Mohammed was present. Sahih Muslim vol.4 book 29 no.5981 p.1299

�Aisha was 6 (or 7) years old when she was married, and the marriage was consummated when she was nine years old. al-Tabari vol.9 p.130,131

A�isha was married when she was six years old, and nine when she went to Mohammed�s house. Ibn-i-Majah vol.3 no.1876 p.133

A�isha was seven years old when she married, nine years old when she lived with Mohammed, and 18 years old when he died. (not Sahih) Ibn-i-Majah vol.3 no.1877 p.134

www.muslimhope.com...