5 Myth about Islam

Originally posted by Datadayne
Images may encourage Idolatry.

That's a crap filled excuse. :shk: Political cartoons do NOT equal idolatry.
There is no way that they could. And even if a cartoon was to promote idolatry,
so freak'n what? People have a right to worship who and what as they please.

Whats with all the bull# spreading on ATS,, anti Islam.

It's not bullcrap ... it's called speaking the truth about Islam ... about what it teaches .. about it's origins.
It's no wonder Muslims don't like the truth being told. The origins of Islam, and the fact that the Qu'ran
is a man made disaster ... those are truths that the cultists don't want people to know about.

If you didnt read the Quran yourself, who the hell are you to teach me my religion.

Obviously SOMEONE who knows the history and the facts about Islam have to speak it. Afterall, those stuck in the cult won't .. and can't - under penalty of death threats.

Only the Arabic translation is completely accurate,, the other are translations.

yeah, yeah .. heard all that before. That's simply not true.

1 - There are MANY interpretations in Islam just as there are many biblical interpretations in Christianity. There is no 'one Islam'.

2 - The original Qu'ran is a freak'n mess of misoginistic bunk, excuses for murder, historical errors and down right lies about divine visitation. Even when the Arabic translation is used, it's still a freak'n mess.

Originally posted by oozyism

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by oozyism

 

You are the self-professed ATS expert on all things Islam, surely you can explain to me?

Ask me that question when I say I will cut off your head for drawing a cartoon.
It is easily accessible in Google, the answers of those who would murder you for drawing Mohammad's cartoons. It is a click away.

You are the one who has previously stated 'ask me anything about Islam'.
Obviously not if it's a little awkward though.

To make it easier I'll rephrase it for you.

Why, if he was only a man, do some Muslims find drawings and other representations of Mohammed so offensive?

And maybe whilst you are at it maybe you could explain why most of the myth's you highlighted in your OP originated from within Islam itself and why some Islamic elements still maintain and promote those myths?

Already been answered.
Muslims have free will, just like soldiers.
The Quran is there for everyone to see, even you.

Hence, the army sets the rules, but soldiers can still break the rules.
If a soldier breaks the rules, it simply means soldiers has freewill.
To clarify, just because an American soldier raped an Iraqi girl, then killed her whole family, doesn't mean the military allows such actions.
The soldier later claimed he didn't think Iraqis were human.
Just because a Muslim murders innocent people, doesn't mean Islam allows this.

I genuinely don't recall this being answered adequately before, could you please direct me to the post please.
I do recall a lot of avoiding the issue and not coming out with a straight answer.

And still oozy you never fail to disapoint.
Only you do disapoint because for some reason I keep on expecting you to learn something from your inter-actions here on ATS....but you don't.
Yet again you have to drag some pathetic anti-US / West propoganda into your response.
It is so predictable - and pityful.

You sir are becoming the single biggest laughing stock here on ATS....and that is sad because you had the potential to be so much more....and it's all your own doing.

I think you are just trying to press buttons here and play some games, I will leave you with the above.

The only thing I am trying to do is get you to answer some questions, preferably free from the religious and political dogma and rhetoric you usually spout in order to evade answering questions but in order to further your own blatantly bigotted agenda.

Originally posted by oozyism

damage their young by attempting to reproduce with them before they are ready, so how come allah didn’t know this?

Very disturbing comment.

Now for the sake of argument let's argue, because I'm getting quiet sick of people like you.

Tell me exactly where in that verse, does it talk about sexual intercourse with someone who has not reached puberty yet.

Explain it in your own words, rather than copying and pasting someone else's.
This will be interesting.

Three different translations from the koran from the Saudi website
the-saudi.net...

YUSUFALI: Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.

PICKTHAL: And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months, along with those who have it not. And for those with child, their period shall be till they bring forth their burden. And whosoever keepeth his duty to Allah, He maketh his course easy for him.

SHAKIR: And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.


chapter 65 is called AT-TALAQ (DIVORCE)

The section in question is about a waiting period which women must be observed before they can remarry. The waiting period starts after they are divorced, or if their husbands have died. In the Qur'an, this is called Iddah or Iddat (العدة‎)

So first, to get a divorce you have to be married
Second its about menstruation and the three possible situations a woman can be in regarding that –
1 she’s past the age where it’s a problem
2 she’s to young to have started
3 she gets a period

Now, if you’re still confused …. Ask your mum

reply to post by Datadayne


If I drew a picture of David Cameron or Margaret Thatcher or The Queen it wouldn't mean that I idolised any of them, quite the opposite I assure you.

I suspect it is because Mohammed is venerated so much within Islam that any represntation would be deemed unworthy of such an exalted individual.

Strange how Islam prides itself on changing little over the years that this has not always been so, paintings of Mohammed were once common place but men, who were as far removed from Mohammed as we are, decided that it was no longer appropriate.

I have no idea why.

My only suggestion is that maybe people were beginning to worship Mohammed more, or equal to, Allah.

I assure you, I don't hate anyone, life is far too short and precious to waste on hating.

reply to post by Datadayne


Its said in a very ancient Jewish Midrash, well before the creation of Islam

"In the end of days, Esau will go up to Ishmael and recruit him in his war against Jacob. Than Esau will use Ishmael as a sword" later on Ishmael says of Esau "Esau, he is unstable".

In Kabbalistic tradition this is interpreted as the western world - Esau (whom the bible identifies with Edom - Rome) and Islam - Ishmael being their father. In truth, Ishmael has nothing against Jacob/Judaism. Historically, Jews and the sons of Ishmael have been on much better terms than with the romans/christians. This midrash predicts what will happen at the end of days. The west - rome or christendom, will use Islam in their war against Jacob/Israel/Judaism. But Ishamel is reticent about Esaus goals. They only hesitantly agree with going along with it. Meaning, Ishmael understands that Esau is inherently unstable, and that the paganism and liberalism of the west is inherently untable, and destined to default.

Unfortunately, most muslims wouldnt acknowledge this. The Rabbis of the renewed sanhedrin acknowledge that Islam is the ancient religion of the Bnei Noach - sons of Noach. Allah, is the same as the aramaic Elah and very close to the Hebrew El'oah. Islam acknowledges the 7 laws of Noach outlined in the Talmud. Recently, the Rabbis of the Sanhedrin went to Istanbul to talk to Adnan Oktar about this and a relationship was forged.

Hopefully, and i really do pray, muslims dont take this wily,deceptive attitude with others who are not Muslim. In Hebrew - Arav - the source of the word Arab, also means "to decieve", and close to the word for crow "Or'ev". This is why Rabbis are naturally very reticent in dealing with arabs. They are innately like this when it comes to relating with non-arabs.

Aside from this, i have many many objections to some aspects within Islam. Specifically certain strains of thought in Sufism. Im not an expert in sufism and i dont know the esoteric nature of the Qu'ran, i only know that certain sufi sects, like the bektashi order of turkey, and a few others, are very steeped in some pagan idolatrous and blasphemous practices that completely contradict the 7 laws of Noach. Examples being:

• ritual transgression of halel
  
• mass orgies
  
• drug usage
  
  It was this order which inspired the Jewish false messiah shabbtai Tzvi to corrupt Judaism. He eventually converted to Islam through this particular order.
  
  edit on 21-12-2010 by dontreally because: (no reason given)
  

reply to post by dontreally


Intersting - it seems obvious that the Vatican/Jesuit NWO has recreated Israel, financed and armed it to the teeth with nukes in order to destroy the Arab/Moslem M.E.

The refugees from this crisis will in turn inevitably result in a Eurowide jihadi civil war. - as per Albert Pikes 'vision'

The wiiners from this will be the Russians.

You sure Esau is Rome!?

reply to post by oozyism


72 virgins...
I've never really seen anyone use this to "attack" Islam or Muslims.
I think you included it as an easy point to knock down, and hype your own argument.
-----
Killing Unbelievers...

All quotes from the Qur'an.

8:12 When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.

8:13 That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment.

8:14 That (is the award), so taste it, and (know) that for disbelievers is the torment of the Fire.

8:34 What (plea) have they that Allah should not punish them, when they debar (His servants) from the Inviolable Place of Worship, though they are not its fitting guardians. Its fitting guardians are those only who keep their duty to Allah. But most of them know not. 8:35 And their worship at the (holy) House is naught but whistling and hand- clapping. Therefore (it is said unto them): Taste of the doom because ye disbelieve.

8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”

All these examples are from only one Surah, and this isn't even all the examples from that one Surah of commands to kill unbelievers.
-----
Forced conversions...

The verse 9:5 you quoted in the last point, proves they forcibly convert.

9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Slay them, capture them, besiege them, ambush them. But if they convert then leave them alone.
This is textbook forced conversion. Attack them until they agree.

You kind of shot yourself in the foot by posting this one...lol.
-----
Death sentence for Apostates....

Simply put, if they don't believe anymore then they are unbelievers. Which I proved the Qur'an orders to kill.

Source:
en.wikipedia.org...

Legal opinion on apostasy by the Fatwa committee at Al-Azhar University in Cairo, the highest Islamic institution in the world, concerning the case of a man who converted to Christianity: "Since he left the Islam, he will be invited to express his regret. If he does not regret, he will be killed pertaining to rights and obligations of the Islamic law."

Translation: Regret turning away from Islam, and come back or die.
-----
Extra tax on Non-Muslims...

Again, I've never seen anyone "attack" Islam or Muslims on this point. I conclude that you are also adding this to pad your post and hype up your side of the argument.

I'm just having trouble with the logic that somehow the Roman (Church) created or was ever in Israel's corner.

To the contrary, the Catholic Church has done everything possible to negate the nation of Israel.

I´d like to see what you think about this reality about muslims students in Britain

The examiner:

32% of British muslim students support killing for islam; 40% want sharia law

Washington times

www.washingtontimes.com...


"32% of British Muslim students support killing for Islam; 40% want Sharia Law
.......
According to a new survey done at 30 universities in Britain, the young Muslim student body in that country is extremely radicalized. The poll asked 600 Muslim students and 800 of their non-Muslim peers about politically touchy subjects like killing in the name of Islam and Sharia Law—and the results were like night and day between the two demographics. While hardly anyone in the non-Muslim sample accepted killing in the name of religion, basically one-third of all Muslim students in Britain supported this."

So is this reality or racism and prejudice and racism against muslims?

reply to post by Freeborn

oozy absolutely infuriated me at times and I disagreed with him on almost everything but I think ATS will be a much worse place without him being here and I for one will miss him, I only hope there is still a way ATS and oozy can reconcile their differences and he can return all the better for the experience and continue being a valued member of the ATS community.

that's sad, I hope they let him come back too,

reply to post by JohhnyBGood


Well ya. Since ancient times the west has been identified with Esau. The bible says "Esau. He is Edom" to make a point. Edom is Rome, as ancient texts relate. The word Edom itself means "red". And infact, many early church authorities accepted that Edom was Rome, and that the christians were symbolized by the brother of Jacob, Esau.

The Jewish heretic and protege of Shabtai Tzvi, Jacob Frank, referred to the christian tradition as Esau - which he himself later on converted to (catholicism).

Theres pretty much no argument about this. There are two derivatibe traditions from Judaism. Christianity and Islam. There are two sons of the 3 biblical patriarchs who werent deemed worthy to inheret the tradition of Abraham. Ishmael - the father of Islam, and Esau, the father of christendom.

reply to post by oozyism


How about this, then if "according to you" the Quran does not condone having intercourse with girls who have not menstruated yet why did Muhammad have intercourse with a 9 year old girl?... (she was actually 6 years old when she was married to Muhammad)

BTW, if what you claim is true then why are young Muslim girls told the following?...

Is it acceptable to marry a girl who has not yet started her menses?
I have not yet reached the age of puberty. Is it correct that a girl could get married before her menses start, or is that just a traditional myth?.


Praise be to Allaah.

Firstly:

Marriage to a young girl before she reaches puberty is permissible according to sharee'ah, and it was narrated that there was scholarly consensus on this point.

1 – Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise”

[al-Talaaq 65:4]

In this verse we see that Allaah states that for those who do not menstruate – because they are young and have not yet reached the age of puberty – the ‘iddah in the case of divorce is three months. This clearly indicates that it is permissible for a young girl who has not started her periods to marry.

Al-Tabari (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

The interpretation of the verse “And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise”. He said: The same applies to the ‘idaah for girls who do not menstruate because they are too young, if their husbands divorce them after consummating the marriage with them.

Tafseer al-Tabari, 14/142

2 – It was narrated from ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married her when she was six years old, and consummated the marriage with her when she was nine, and she stayed with him for nine years.

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4840; Muslim, 1422.

Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr said:

The scholars are unanimously agreed that a father may marry off his young daughter without consulting her. The Messenger of Allaah married ‘Aa’ishah bint Abi Bakr when she was young, six or seven years old, when her father married her to him.

Al-Istidhkaar, 16/49-50.

Secondly:

The fact that it is permissible to marry a minor girl does not imply that it is permissible to have intercourse with her, rather the husband should not have intercourse with her until she becomes able for that. Hence the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) delayed consummating the marriage to ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her).

And Allaah knows best.

islamqa.com...

Even though at the end it is claimed that married men have to wait until their bride has reached puberty we find in other sources evidence for the contrary.

...
Regarding sex with prepubescent children, Abu-Ala’ Maududi states:

"Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl at this age but it is permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Qur’an has held as permissible." (Maududi, volume 5, p. 620, note 13, emphasis added)

It is clear: Muslim men can engage in sex with prepubescent children!



_____________________________________________________________________

3) EVIDENCE THAT AISHA WAS 9 WHEN SHE CONSUMMATED HER MARRIAGE

Now that we’ve established that Islam allows husbands to engage in sex with their child-brides, let’s move on to Muhammad and Aisha. The Islamic source materials state that Aisha was 9 when they consummated their marriage.

From the hadith of Bukhari, volume 5, #234

"Narrated Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allahs blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allahs messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age."

Bukhari vol. 7, #65:

"Narrated Aisha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: "I have been informed that Aisha remained with the prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).""

From the hadith of Muslim, volume 2, #3309

Aisha reported: Allah’s Messenger married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine….

From the hadith of the Sunan of Abu Dawud, volume 2, #2116

"Aisha said, "The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old." (The narrator Sulaiman said: "Or six years."). "He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old."

From "The History of Tabari", volume 9, page 131

"Then the men and women got up and left. The Messenger of God consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on behalf of me"...(The Prophet) married her three years before the Emigration, when she was seven years old and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old, after he had emigrated to Medina in Shawwal. She was eighteen years old when he died.

From the Encyclopedia of Islam, under "Aisha":

"Some time after the death of Khadija, Khawla suggested to Muhammad that he should marry either Aisha, the 6 year old daughter of his chief follower, or Sawda Zama, a widow of about 30, who had gone as a Muslim to Abyssinia and whose husband had died there. Muhammad is said to have asked her to arrange for him to marry both. It had already been agreed that Aisha should marry Djubayr Mutim, whose father, though still pagan, was friendly to the Muslims. By common consent, however, this agreement was set aside, and Muhammad was betrothed to Aisha... The marriage was not consummated until some months after the Hidjra, (in April 623, 624). Aisha went to live in an apartment in Muhammad's house, later the mosque of Median. She cannot have been more than ten years old at the time and took her toys to her new home."



SUMMARY OF THE EVIDENCE OF AISHA'S AGE

The above references are just a sample of the Islamic source material statements that Aisha was 9 when her marriage was consummated. Over and over again the great Islamic scholars state that Aisha was 9 when her marriage was consummated. No serious Muslim scholar doubts this. Generally it is only embarrassed Muslims living in the West who challenge her age. For a more in-depth presentation of the evidence of Aisha’s age being 9, see Sam’s article here.
www.answering-islam.org...

edit on 22-12-2010 by ElectricUniverse because: errors and to add comments.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


In defence of Islam here, i think those ideas are held to by the radical islamists.

I do know of certain muslims that reject certain Hadiths which they feel is out of line with real Islam.

But than again, the Quran does make explicit reference to the Jews and how theyre derived from apes, which is pretty insulting and defamatory.

BTW, what about the following?

Taqqiya
The following excerpts are from The Mosque Exposed by Sam Solomon, a former imam and Islamic lawyer who converted to Christianity and is now residing in the UK, and E. Alamaqdisi, a prolific writer and debater, and a regular contributor to many Internet sites on the complex subject of Islam and its teachings. They also wrote Modern Day Trojan Horse: Al-Hijra, The Islamic Doctrine of Immigration, Accepting Freedom or Imposing Islam?

Despite the overtly cruel, harsh and intolerant Qur'anic views towards the 'others,' namely Jews and Christians, there are injunctions in the Qur'an that enable the Islamic community to disguise, play down, and, when necessary, deny both the intensity and validity of these anti-Semitic and anti-Christian teachings of its religious system.[1]

[Takiyya] permeates almost all the activities and dealings of Muslims within non-Muslim societies...[1]

Takiyya means "caution, fear, or disguise." It permits the suspension, as the need arises, of almost any or all religious requirements--including a total denial of faith--when fearing threat, injury or compulsion of any kind in a non-Muslim society, or even in a Muslim society.[1]

[edit] Kitman
Kitman is close to Taqqiya but rather than outright dissimulation, it consists in telling only part of the truth, with “mental reservation” justifying the omission of the rest (adjustment, deception etc, anything short of a full-blown lie). For example when a Muslim maintains that “jihad” really means “a spiritual struggle” and fails to add that this particular definition is a recent invention in Islam [2](little more than a century old), he misleads by holding back the true violent nature of jihad, and is therefore practicing “kitman.” Another example would be the insistence of a Muslim apologist that “of course” there is the freedom of conscience in Islam, followed by quoting the Qur’anic verse “There shall be no compulsion in religion.” The impression given is false, for there has been no mention of the Islamic doctrine of abrogation, or naskh.

[edit] Conditions to lie set by Muhammad
In his Sira, Muhammad authorized lying to improve the chances of successful assassinations, for example in the case of Shaaban Ibn Khalid al-Hazly and Bin Kaab.

Muhammad said: "Lying is wrong, except in three things: the lie of a man to his wife to make her content with him; a lie to an enemy, for war is deception; or a lie to settle trouble between people" [Ahmad, 6.459. H]

See also Raymond Ibrahim's article for the Middle East Quarterly, Winter 2010: How Taqiyya Alters Islam's Rules of War
[edit] Qur'an verses about Taqqiyah
A Muslim does not have to maintain his oath (faith) as long as whats in his heart is true

Qur'an 2:225
Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.

Qur'an 3:28
Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty..

Qur'an 16:106
Qur'an 77:38 and Qur'an 9:5 allows the Muslim to use any stratagem. A common Muslim defense is that this applies 'only in war' However as has been demonstrated, Muslims are always at war. Considering that non-believers can not be friends with Muslims. Therefore any relations can only be governed by enmity or truce. Also, Considering the Muslims are allowed to break a truce whenever they choose without prior warning (very dishonourable conduct) as per Treaties, I would have to argue that Muslims are constantly at war.
...

wikiislam.net...(taqiyya)

Originally posted by Datadayne
...
There is no "Secret plot to DOMINATE the world by force". Sure there are a # ton on Muslims out there that commit terrible acts,,, they will be punished for that.

Really? so are you going to deny the Muslim crusade to spread Islam by the sword on the 7th century AD?

Originally posted by Datadayne
Well I must congratulate TPTB, you've accomplished your goal. The masses hate us.
HERE! HAVE AN INTERNET HIGH FIVE!!!!

TPTB of today did not exist in the 7th century AD, when the newly converted Muslims set out to conquer the known world by the sword.

The Muslim crusade to spread Islam by the sword caused the Christian crusades.

This time around different approaches are being used. Although I am not saying all Muslims want to spread Islam by any means, even the sword if the need arises, but there is a large section which wants to do this

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


No no.. I agree Islam is much much different than people understand.

Its their mystical tradition - the base theology of islam, which poses such a gross contradiction. Islam extols martyrdom and sexual extraveganza as great virtues.

Seriously. you would be surprised has sexually permissive Islam really is. Which is why it is such an irony that they have their woman dress the way they do in public. Not just that, but Sufism permits homosexuality - the rapture inherent in the sacred feminine which conduces to disorder, and disharmony, and Islam sees these relationships as ok in certain contexts. Allah in arabic is also gramatically feminine (implying the dual nature of the godhead)

In Jungs autobiography he relates a story where while in tunisia, his tour guide solicits him for sex; he was completely surprised with the forwardness of his request. In north africa in those days, "love between males" was completely normal, unlike the puritan christian world which had yet to be liberated (this is pretty much the gist of jungs view about this incident) of its morally stuffiness.

reply to post by finallianstallion

I think you may want to check out this link to understand the authenticity of those "survey" claims:
The Daily Mail's latest Wikileaks 'revelation' about British Muslims is actually a story they published in 2008, and it's as dodgy now as it was then.


reply to post by dontreally

Hey dontreally!

The Quran doesn't say that Jews are derived from apes, rather it relates an incident where Jews that transgressed (consistently in the matter of prohibitions and the Sabbath, for example) during the time of Moses were tranformed into apes.

And yeah, while Islam is a lot more open about sex (than say Christianity), it's not so much sufism that allows homosexuality rather than that there were some famous sufis and poets that had a thing for (certain other) men.
It is an interesting and somewhat unfortunate side-effect of this total segregation of men and women (which was certainly not sanctioned by Islam) that men at least, somewhat turn to their own sex, if not for sex, at least for intimacy. Someone I met in Pakistan said (jokingly....I think ) that "You live on your own, and people see you taking a woman into your house, you'll be ostracised, look-down upon, and your reputation would probably seriously suffer. You take a man into your house, spend a couple of hours doing what you want, and nobody would say a thing".
As an interesting aside, while it is generally understood to implicitly prohibit it, none of the passages in the Quran (and I don't think in the hadith either) specifically mention lesbianism.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

Taqiyya? Seriously? The only people who take it to any level are the Shi'ites, and even those don't say anything about lying to promote religion. I doubt you'd even find a single TERRORIST who supported its use from the Quran or Hadith to mean what you say. Lying about one's faith is allowed when your life is in danger if you told the truth. This same allowance is generally included in Christianity and Judaism, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

There is no nonsense involving lying about Islam to further its cause.

reply to post by babloyi


Wow. Thanks for that information.

It really is amazing though. It isnt simply Sufism, but certain sects of islam and sufi orders have ritual orgies and transgression of halel. Deliberately engaging in sinful and evil actions for some deranged metaphysical purpose. look up the Bektahi order for an example.

Im not sure if this is an intrinsic part of Islam, or simply an aspect that was introduced later on (though my own personal feelings are this is an intrinsic aspect of Islam).

In anycase, compared woth judaism; it is simply ludicrous. Judaism unformly has a abhorrence towards homosexuality as it is strictly prohibitted by G-d in the Torah, and the action itself is a rebuke towards the spiritual harmony in creation. There have never been cases where men cant control their physical urges to such a degree where they turn to homosexuality. Interestingly, the Talmud does mention this practice among the children of Ishmael (muslims) circa 700 CE. So it appears to be quite essential , and not a social abberation of compulsion that is forced on men who feel sexually deprived.

How is it Judaism, where exoterically has such a similar doctrine, has never succumbed to the desire towards homosexuality? Judaism has always stressed the sanctity of marriage and the holiness of the relationship between a man and his wife; and how the wife is to be treated as his most cherished possession (and so given love, and honor; though, requited by the womans subservience and deference to her husband -as eve came from Adam, she was dependant on his "judgement"). So how has Judaism managed, and Islam relent? I think its a matter of theology, and metaphysics, rather than moral weakness.

reply to post by dontreally

As I said, it came about (in some cultures) as a result of the segregation of women. While women in the time of Muhammad actively participated in their community, some later cultures (I believe the idea of sex segregation was taken from Persia), while incorporating Islam into their traditions, included this as well, with disastrous results:
When you completely remove women from society, take away their participation in it, make their appearance an aberration or an oddity, then obviously certain behaviours will rise to the top.

Make no mistake, homosexuality is strongly condemned in Islam, both in the Quran and the Hadith. It's just that there aren't so many references to it, as it was not a very common problem in Arabia at the time. There are several references to the iniquities of the People of Lot (Sodom & Gomorrah) and how they chose other men to lie with instead of women.

EDIT: I looked up the Bektashi (I assume that is what you meant?), and while their practices certainly don't match with mainstream Islam, I found no references to what you speak of. Care to elaborate?