More evangelists appointed to Lords, Christians desperate to force their delusion upon my children

Hi Control,

thanks for your kind words; personally I feel there's still a need for improvement in my ruminations.

And thanks also for the link to the article. While I agree with the author's opinion to the extent, that the fundamentalisms aren't all-powerful, my own opinion is, that they are still the major threat to the emerging democracies (that is if the fundies could ever agree and create a common front. But fortunately there are natural laws making superstructures implode eventually).

I think, that the main strength of the extremist christianities is, that they have been around for a long time. Their deed and doctrines are considerably older than 'christianity' itself; the present form, pauline 'christianity' is just an exoteric propaganda facade, with the grovelling intact and the murdering somewhat toned down.

They have developed well-established routines for deflecting criticism, which are timeconsuming to cut through. And then they have, altogether, such a nominal number of members in the club, that it can appear impressive on the cosmetic surface.

So for the time being, extreme christianities are leading amongst elitist-dominion movements, but I believe that I've seen the first small signs of the puppet-masters withdrawing their hands from support of the christianities. There will be signs of new generations and types of infiltrators, propagandists and street-hooligans soon.

The pro-fundie sites and the individual propagandists manifesting on forums like ATS, are obviously of such a quality (or rather absence of it), that they all by themselves will scare away potential christians. The total lack of introspection, general unwillingness to admit that even ineffable myths need updating, and most of all their inability to understand how mankind outside the holy bubbles SEE them simply don't fit with contemporary norms. All this indicates to me, that the master-ideologers of the puppeteers isn't so much involved anymore.

So sorry fundies, to me you appear as somewhat lowgrade clownish with your bible-verses, circle-arguments and steam-roller attitudes. I often meet adherents to religious or semi-religious ideas, with whom it's a pleasure and an inspiration to have dialogue-communication, but missionaries are seldom in this group.

PS Control, I'll apologize, if you feel that I intruded on a 'private' communication with NoturTypical (why he would want to do this on a public forum is beyond me, when U2U exist). On my part I'm only grateful for your input to NoSouper on my behalf. It was another perspective than mine you presented, and as such valuable.

Originally posted by Control

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Control

 

? What the heck Bible are you reading, because I don't remember that being even apocryphal in the church I grew up in?

He's talking about JUDE, a shortened form of Judas. Jude is the blood brother of James. Jude and James are Jesus's half-brothers.

The Jude/Judas he is speaking about is the same Jude that has a book of the NT named after him, the book preceding Revelation.

Hey guy, again, I don't lknow what Bible you're reading again, but I've come across even more Christians and non-Christians alike who would balk at that declaration as readily as I am.

And on the so-called Gnostic Gospels, I got kinda hooked into that too about 7 years ago and satisfied my own burden of proof that they are spurious in nature and were released into mainstream publishing primarily to make Dan Brown and Elaine Pagels money. Kinda like the whole "channeled seer" books like "Bringers of the Dawn."

It's people making stuff up so that gullible folks like you will buy into it. This is what makes this aq dangersous mindset in critical decision making environments....evangelicals and neo-fundamnetalists have already and are proving on a daily basis that can be swayed by any idea that sounds good enough to them, and they will defend that dodgy idea as though it were proven fact. This is not something we can afford when we are trying to make decisions on another nations nuclear program, or debating the merits of a new law.

In those circumstances, facts are what need to be dealt with, and that is something that you and everyone else like you have proven time again that you are unwilling to work with. This is why there MUST be a separation of Church and State. It must be a wide chasm between the two vestiges, never the two allowed to intersect.

*sigh*

"Jude (alternatively Judas or Judah) was the brother of Jesus,[1] according to the New Testament. He is traditionally identified as the author of the Epistle of Jude, a short epistle which is reckoned among the seven General epistles of the New Testament and considered canonical by Christians.[2][3]...

Mark 6:3 and Matthew 13:55 write of Jesus being the carpenter’s son. His mother was Mary and his brothers were James, Joses, Simon and Jude. Jesus's sisters are also mentioned, but not by name. There is no mention of Joseph being the father of those mentioned, nor is there any indication that Mary was a lifelong virgin. (See the Virgin Mary and Marian doctrines of the Catholic Church)"

Jude Wikipedia

reply to post by bogomil


No intrusion at all perceived on my part. I'm enjoying this debate. Though, coming from an inside perspective on the evangelical neo-fundamentalist intrusion into the US Government, and as it appears from the OP's perspective into the British House of Lords as well, the threat that they pose is pervasive, and shifts its appearance. They will even shift the nomenclature of their spirituality to fit with pop-culture. "I'm not a Christian like THOSE Christians are, I'm a Joachimite Essene, or I'm a Gnostic, or I'm a Bible Believer not a Preacher Believer." Any wording one uses still amounts to the same thing.

Check into C-Street. "The Family" is one of the more dangerous and long-standing manifestations of this theocratic threat and one of their primary intelligence arms. It is from this group that the pop-culture "Xtreme Xtianity" concept emerged in the early 2000's as an attempt to attract younger believers to their hate-clique. Now, approximately a third of the Legislative Branch on both sides is an adherent to some form of this belief system.

In other words, when these folks perceive that other folks perceive them as a religious threat, then they deflect away from their religion and try and couch their religion in politically conservative terms minus the religious rhetoric. They just hide their religion when it suits them and will lie about it when it suits them as well. But their numbers are not decreasing by a long shot. They are still directing the majority of foreign policy in the US and are wholly behind the US support of Israel.

Re Control

You wrote:

"These debate tactics (topic sliding, and topic dilution, et al) are particularly dangerous when married to a CDM Environment (Critical Decision Making). The fact is that most evangelical and neo-fundamentalists are of an incredibly low cognitive level, and having one in charge of the Air Force and AF Academy are just dangerous."

Being a reclusive weirdo in some sense, my lingo is seldom up to date; and the opinions and conclusions I arrive at are mostly autodidact with small prior knowledge of 'specialist'-debates (though I have a broad general academic amount of knowledge). I only use the obvious and observed manifestations from the postings of individuals.

So again: Thanks for this information you gave. It'll make my life easier to know, that these debate-tactics I've noticed already are an acknowledged phenomenon.

Here's some info on C-Street (Including their wiki page)
en.wikipedia.org...

Sex and Power Inside the C-Street House:
www.salon.com...

Frat House for Jesus:
www.newyorker.com...

C-Street House Allegedly Tied to Terrorist Funding Islamic Charity:
michiganmessenger.com...

It keeps getting better and better. Or should I say worse and worse?

Hi Control

I'm back already, because you wrote:

"Though, coming from an inside perspective on the evangelical neo-fundamentalist intrusion into the US Government, and as it appears from the OP's perspective into the British House of Lords as well, the threat that they pose is pervasive, and shifts its appearance."

In my almost middlesized, rather secular european country, I see the same on a regular basis. Listening to my radio-phony apparatus (got no TV. My endurance to propaganda is limited), the christian clergy erupts with the claims of: "Without us, chaos".

"Your household pet will be raped in broad daylight by sodomites with special tastes; criminals protected and victims put in prison; christmas will be spoiled and the stock-market go down".

Fortunately, this is here mostly considered noise. But as you mentioned the political aspect in this context, there ARE strong signs of the cabale starting to treat some european countries as banana-republics. Two cases have already been brought to the EU commision on constitutional infringements, and I'm just waiting for the fundies to hook on to this trend.

"You're not paranoic, if they really are after you" and there is a growing european awareness of shady deals going on.

reply to post by bogomil

If you're in an eastern European country or a former Soviet Republic, or one nearby such a country then I can see how it would be viewed as mostly noise. The populace in those countries is too well-hardened by such madness to be too affected by it at face value. The dangerous aspects of the neo-fundamentalist incursion in eastern Europe is in the money-mindset they bring with them. This finds it's way first into the private companies and organized crime in these countries and by that route, usually indirectly in the form of policymaking without proselytizing, into law and other social control mechanisms. The total incursion generally take a decade to take firm hold, and another decade or so to fully pan out into a noticable shift in observable social dynamics on a widespread scale.

The US has almost fully transformed into this. It began it's incursion in 1935 with the foundation of C-Street by a Norwegian immigrant who thought that God spoke to him through the mouth of a corporate executive who told him not to serve the poor or meek, but to serve the rich and powerful and THEY would thereby serve the poor and meek. This is how pop religion got started in the first place. Pop religion like that being represented in this thread. Elaine Pagels and her Gnostic Gospels, Bringers of the Dawn, A Course in Miracles, The Gospel of Barnabas, The Lost Gospel of Judas, it's all crap. New Age Christianity, New Age Paganism...doesn't really matter what label is attached to it when the only important label is the price tag. It can just as easily be a cross or an athame, it doesn't really matter either way, and usually both are sold in the same place or same section of the bookstore.

That's the important part to notice. It's the only place where these two ideologies directly converge, and there's a reason for that. Here in the States, there are religious specialty bookstores which sell New Age Pagan and Christian titles that give people the ideas of the validity of their delusion, or a new delusion to find meaning in altogether. They're in every major city. The other main source of books is from two major corporate chains which cover the nation; Borders and Barnes & Noble.

In both bookchains, the New Age Christian and Pagan books are in the same shelving section, though they are usually assigned to separate shelves. But they put Buddhism and Hinduism, and Taoism in their own sections in the same area too.

The religious specialty shops also carry a wide variety of the little trinkets and knick knacks which inevitably accompany said New Age religion. The evangelicals have their books and little porcelain angels ("Angels on Your Body. Bless Your Heart") and the Catholics and Episcolpalians have their rosaries. Methodists and Presbyterians have books and trinkets too. Money. The one common denominator. Hinduism with their Saddhus and Gurus too. It's all about money. The believers are the ones who are the most bilked in the situation.

The biggest problem is, these people...the controllers of the believers....have figured out that they have the numbers, power, and hardware to launch a takeover attempt. They're actually pretty far into it.

Here's another documentary. This one is a 47 minute piece from a BBC show called Louis Theroux Weird Weekends.

video.google.com...#

It's about Born Again Christians and their mentality. The Doomsday Code goes more into how they have affected US government.

Re Control,

I'm old enough to be one of the initial european 'hippies'; a movement which then brought much constructive criticism and creative speculation. But to my intense disgust I saw it annexed to the various control-freak ideologies, turning into the abominable new-age commercial and guru-tripping worshippers. E.g. was the original buddhistic leanings twisted into barely disguised christian doctrines. Ever so often I see new-ager christians writing: "All religions (including asian varieties) have the same 'god' (ofcourse meaning the insane man in the sky)", completely ignorant of the fact that said asian religions are chemically cleaned of ultimate creator 'gods'.

I think, your observations on this are very lucid, both in detail and greater contexts, so there's no need for us to pat each others backs, except for one thing.

I (who by the way live in the traditionally western part of Europe), have a good knowledge of eastern european and former Sovjet cultures. Having travelled to several of these countries app. two times a year in a 15 year period, lived there for altogether two years and with a 5-year marriage to a polish woman behind me, I've seen the invasive methods, you mention.

After the fall of Sovjet, everybody there became obsessed with the new 'freedom', especially the commercial aspect of it. It's not that there was a general lack of money, but rather that you couldn't use it for anything, as the shops mostly were empty of anything.

So the first 5-10 years everybody went around on spending sprees, the banks giving loans from western money meant to re-create production etc. Fast-food chains mushroomed at every streetcorner.

And the clergy had the high time of their lives. Churches were turned into pro-christian political greenhouses, where the identical process of what this thread is about, took place.

But slavic and russian character is very enigmatic. It's both resilient, stubborn and highly sophisticated at the same time, and these days a passive resistance to westernization is growing, the churches declining and 'traditional' values getting a renaissance. With a few exceptions crime is restricted to 'big crime' (you don't see much street muggings etc), and while the consumer's craze is still raging, counter-movements have already emerged. Far more quick than in the west. These people are masters of adapting to external forces, seemingly bowing to them, while keeping their own culture intact at a deep level.

E.g. when Sovjet was at its worst, stamping down on religion, interested and serious researchers just classified non-mundane phenomena as 'bio-energetic' and everything was honky-dory.

So I'm not completely pessimistic on mankind's chances to survive elitistic onslaughts. There's a small potential in us, which can cut through all this existential illness, but this potential doesn't manifest passively or mechanically. It requires a dynamic and creative approach, to counter the 'my way or death' of the elitists.

TPTB are as aware of this potential as you, Djin, I and all the other rationally thinking participants here are. So the battlefield now is a subtle zombification versus non-conformism.

And I believe, that non-conformism has its roots from something deeper than just social or genetic imprints. The universe constantly produces (necessary) exceptions from the norms, but that's another story.

I will look at your links tomorrow. Great exchange of information, I appreciate it.

Praise the Lord! I give thanks to our beneficent Creator for providing a modicum of Christian influence in a dying culture. Perhaps there is hope for England after all? It will take a great revival to do it. Otherwise you will soon be another failed Islamic state.

You will have a fundamentalist country one way or another. The weak libertine, unprincipled atheism, that is promoted by the intelligentsia has no staying power. It has no moral or spiritual power to fill the spiritual void of the masses. More to the point the libertines don't reproduce. Would you rather it be Muslim or the same religion you had when England ruled the world?

Click here for more information.

reply to post by The Revenant

Fascist idiocy of an unparalleled scale. Back in your box!

Holy cow, ad hominem much??

reply to post by NoSoup4U

Here are the authors by Testament: OLD: - Moses, Joshua, Samuel, Jeremiah, Ezra, Nehemiah, Mordecai, Hezekiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel NEW: - Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James brother of Jesus, Peter, Judas the brother of Jesus

These are are "alleged" authors my friend

A majority of modern US scholars fix the dates of the four Gospels as follows: Matthew, c. 85-90; Mark, c. 65; Luke, c. 80-85; John, c. 90-100.4

So it would seem that jesus lived, died, then was forgotten about ??

The four Gospels that eventually made it into the New Testament, for example, are all anonymous, written in the third person about Jesus and his companions. None of them contains a first-person narrative ("One day, when Jesus and I went into Capernaum..."), or claims to be written by an eyewitness or companion of an eyewitness. Why then do we call them Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?
Because sometime in the second century, when proto-orthodox Christians recognized the need for apostolic authorities, they attributed these books to apostles (Matthew and John) and close companions of apostles (Mark, the secretary of Peter; and Luke, the travelling companion of Paul).
Most scholars today have abandoned these identifications, and recognize that the books were written by otherwise unknown but relatively well-educated Greek-speaking (and writing) Christians during the second half of the first century.” "Lost Christianities" by Bart Ehrman (2003)1

1. Jesus Has No History
1.1. No Primary Source (First-Person) Accounts of Jesus Exist

No historians of the time mention Jesus. Suetonius (65-135) does not. Pliny the Younger only mentions Christians (Paulists) with no comment of Jesus himself. Tacitus mentions a Jesus, but it is likely that after a century of Christian preaching Tacitus was just reacting to these rumours, or probably talking about one of the many other Messiah's of the time.
Josephus, a methodical, accurate and dedicated historian of the time mentions John the Baptist, Herod, Pilate and many aspects of Jewish life but does not mention Jesus. (The Testimonium Flavianum has been shown to be a third century Christian fraud).

He once mentions a Jesus, but gives no information other than that he is a brother of a James. Jesus was not an unusual name, either. Justus, another Jewish historian who lived in Tiberias (near Kapernaum, a place Jesus frequented) did not mention Jesus nor any of his miracles. It is only in the evidence of later writers, writing about earlier times, that we find a Jesus. What is more surprising (Jesus could simply have been unknown to local historians) is that academics note that the gospels themselves do not allude to first-hand historical sources, either!

reply to post by NoSoup4U


Josephus

"...the vast majority of scholars since the early 1800s have said that this quotation is not by Josephus, but rather is a later Christian insertion in his works. In other words, it is a forgery, rejected by scholars."
Dr Gordon Stein

Whole libraries of antiquity were torched by the Christians. Yet unlike the works of his Jewish contemporaries, the histories of Josephus survived. They survived because the Christian censors had a use for them. They planted evidence on Josephus, turning the leading Jewish historian of his day into a witness for Jesus Christ ! Finding no references to Jesus anywhere in Josephus's genuine work, they interpolated a brief but all-embracing reference based purely on Christian belief. Do we need to look any further to identify Eusebius himself as the forger?

And even in the twenty first century scholars who should know better trot out a truncated version of the 'golden paragraph' in a scurrilous attempt to keep Josephus 'on message.'

But belief in a celestial Christ does not equate to belief in a flesh-and-blood 'Jesus of Nazareth' – and when the 'heretical' and 'gnostic' views of early Christians are examined 'Jesus of Nazareth' is noticeably absent. And to press the point, even a belief in a 'Jesus of Nazareth' does not make him a reality – it is only the belief that is a reality.

It is rather as if a child who believed in the Tooth Fairy was to be presented as evidence that the Tooth Fairy really existed.

K Humphreys Jesus Never Existed

reply to post by NoSoup4U

Many of the world's crucified godmen have their traditional birthday on December 25th. This is because the ancients recognized that (from an earthcentric perspective) the sun makes an annual descent southward until December 21st or 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops moving southerly for three days and then starts to move northward again.

During this time, the ancients declared that "God's sun" had "died" for three days and was "born again" on December 25th. The ancients realized quite abundantly that they needed the sun to return every day and that they would be in big trouble if the sun continued to move southward and did not stop and reverse its direction.

Thus, these many different cultures celebrated the "sun of God's" birthday on December 25th. The following are the characteristics of the "sun of God":
* The sun "dies" for three days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops in its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.

* In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin."

* The sun is the "Light of the World."

* The sun "cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him."

* The sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of mankind."

* The sun wears a corona, "crown of thorns" or halo.

* The sun "walks on water."

* The sun's "followers," "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.

* The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High"; thus, "he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.

* The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30°; hence, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.

* The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified," which represents its passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected. ” "Origins of Christianity" by Acharya S

reply to post by The Djin

A majority of modern US scholars fix the dates of the four Gospels as follows: Matthew, c. 85-90; Mark, c. 65; Luke, c. 80-85; John, c. 90-100.4

lol, no.

"P64" is a papyrus fragment dated before 66 AD (contains Matthew 26:23, 31)

Missler ~ How we got the NT

Specifically, video 2 and 3.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

lol, no. "P64" is a papyrus fragment dated before 66 AD (contains Matthew 26:23, 31)

66AD 85AD 200 AD

Common denominator ? All AD. Indeed, so once again, jesus the godman that walked on water, raised the dead, lived, died was and forgotten about.

We agree with Thiede when he wrote ‘Caution is always the best approach in the dating of manuscripts’.[97] In this article an attempt has been made both to hear and to critically investigate his claims regarding the date of P. Magd. Gr. 17 = P64. Although we recognise the service that he has performed in facilitating a reexamination of methodological presuppositions, our verdict on his claims is a negative one. The very early manuscripts to which Thiede appealed for close parallels to P64 turned out to be not as close as the somewhat later ones which he had overlooked. Although there is no absolutely definite evidence by which P. Magd. Gr. 17 = P 64 can be dated with certainty, the available evidence points to a date around AD 200. To be on the safe side I would suggest plus or minus fifty years as the possible range.

Peter M. Head

Published in Tyndale Bulletin 46(1995)251-285

Well this is not a theological issue nor one of comparative religion. The real problem is that the Lords is composed of people who hold us ( often called the electorate) in contempt. I do not belong to a proselytising religion and have no time for those that do. I view these evangelists as a serious threat as faith has no place in UK politics

reply to post by tiger5


Well, just look at what they have done to the US! They are essentially the divisive factor on our society which has led to a cold civil war that has now been raging for about ten years now. That cold civil war is intended to go hot. Most of the police state mechanism which have been put in place in the US have been done so by evangelists who have already gained sufficient enough power over the total legislative body. They are "legalizing" their bigotry, stupidity and fascism in the exact same manner that Hitler did in post-Weimar Germany. Everything that Hitler did was "legal" according to the laws of Germany, and the evangelists are setting up the same system in the US.

Be warned, if they gain too much power (30% of the decision-making body or greater) then your country is already lost. You guys across the pond still have some time left. Keep your country free of this evil influence so that it can help stamp it out over here.

Originally posted by tiger5
Well this is not a theological issue nor one of comparative religion. The real problem is that the Lords is composed of people who hold us ( often called the electorate) in contempt. I do not belong to a proselytising religion and have no time for those that do. I view these evangelists as a serious threat as faith has no place in UK politics

Thanks for bringing us back on track here's an interesting article describing basically the christian response to the rejection of their delusion.

What is plain to see is that the more fundamental types simply cannot comprehend that their delusion is not only waning but seriously imploding. The newer younger generations in the uk are rejecting the magik man in the sky en mass, they are observing the obvious which is that christianity doesn't have anything to offer in the way of a better life and as it dwindles, the remnants clinging to the bottom of the sink can be seen for what they are, the self deluding dregs of a bigoted tyrannical control cult.

Christian zealots launch campaign based on lies, distortions and paranoia

“There is mounting pressure to exclude Jesus Christ from the public domain, consigning Him instead to the realm of the ‘private and personal’. Increasingly, Christians are encountering attempts to restrict their freedom to speak and live in accordance with biblical teaching in the workplace and in public life.”

“When far too many people fear ridicule for admitting that they are Christians or are uncertain whether they can bring their faith to the workplace, we should all stand together to honour the One who has so significantly and valuably shaped our country. After all, there are more Christians in our land than those who seek to undermine the Christian Faith. And if you are not yet a Christian, a follower of Jesus Christ, may I encourage you, this Christmas, to listen again to the Christmas story and to ask God to forgive you for the past, to be with you in the present, and to strengthen you to stand up as one of his followers, in the year ahead and for the rest of your life? I am not ashamed of Jesus Christ. Are you?”

www.secularism.org.uk...