Poppy-burning Muslim protesters mar Armistice Day commemorations as millions fall

reply to post by CX


Probably the most poignant and thoughtful post I've seen on this thread so far.

reply to post by oozyism


I marched and protested against BOTH wars. So make of that what you will...

reply to post by oozyism


Brilliant post and that's exactly how it should be, but unfortunately it isn't. I live in hope!

Sherlock Holmes www.abovetopsecret.com...

Nothing like skipping around the most important point that I made. You seem to think that we exist to serve politicians. Sorry it's the other way round and these politicians have done nothing but lie and deceive us and most are certainly not fit to represent us. They promised us a referendum on the EU Treaty, amongst other things and they broke those promises through lies and deceit. The UK Government is rotten to the core.

Our Parliament is rotten to the core.
blogs.telegraph.co.uk...

There is a common thread to these stories. All three cases show that lying and cheating are still regarded as acceptable conduct by the British Political Class. Our MPs continue to regard themselves as somehow beyond the basic morality that applies to their fellow citizens. I used to believe that this arrogant and dishonest approach to politics was peculiar to New Labour. Now it looks like common practice for all parties.

reply to post by kindred


This is about showing a proper respect for other people and what they feel is important.
If you insult people over what they feel is special to them, you are just going to fan the flames of hatred.

Both sides are guilty of this, but they are not a majority, they are the radical activists minority, and the perception because of their visibility is that they represent the entire group, they don't.

That´s what free speech does for you, people can say what they want no matter how silly it may seem.
Try and do a similair thing against Islam in certain countries you´d get stoned to death.

reply to post by CX


2 of the memorials in my home town are dedicated to those of an undivded India who fought beside us be they Muslim, Hindu, Sikh etc.. one was paid for by the public subscription (The Chattri), and the other was a gift to the people of my home town by the princes of India for the kind treatment of their sons in the form of the Indian Memorial Gateway leading into the Royal Pavilion.

The following text is on the memorial (the Chattri) and you will find it in English, Hindi, Punjabi and Urdu

To the memory of all Indian soldiers who gave their lives for the King-Emperor in the Great War, this monument, erected on the site of the funeral pyre where Hindus and Sikhs who died in hospital at Brighton passed through the fire, is in grateful admiration and brotherly love dedicated

While the following Pathe Newreel is of the visit by Mirza Basheer-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad (caliph of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community) to both the Royal Pavilion and Chattri Memorial to pay his respects and honour those who fell, and I feel sad that these guys could not pay the same kind of respect to all those who fell on all sides of all wars.



A new memorial naming those who passed through the flames in Brighton was unveiled this year


BBC Link.. In Pictures, Brighton Pavilion, Indian Military Hospital the last picture of which shows the Indian Memorial Gateway that was opened by the Maharaja of Patiala in 1921.

Originally posted by Prince Of Darkness
In other words you attacked them first and they retaliated.

How so? Prior to 2001, NATO spent a great deal of blood and treasure defending Muslims from Christians in the Balkans! Wonky logic there, chap, which doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Originally posted by Prince Of Darkness
The quality of life sadly has gone worse

Iraq

QUALITY OF LIFE INDICATORS - in Iraq

Iraqis Displaced Inside Iraq, by Iraq War, as of May 2007 - 2,255,000
Iraqi Refugees in Syria & Jordan - 2.1 million to 2.25 million
Iraqi Unemployment Rate - 27 to 60%, where curfew not in effect
Consumer Price Inflation in 2006 - 50%
Iraqi Children Suffering from Chronic Malnutrition - 28% in June 2007 (Per CNN.com, July 30, 2007)
Percent of professionals who have left Iraq since 2003 - 40%
Iraqi Physicians Before 2003 Invasion - 34,000
Iraqi Physicians Who Have Left Iraq Since 2005 Invasion - 12,000
Iraqi Physicians Murdered Since 2003 Invasion - 2,000
Average Daily Hours Iraqi Homes Have Electricity - 1 to 2 hours, per Ryan Crocker, U.S. Ambassador to Iraq (Per Los Angeles Times, July 27, 2007)
Average Daily Hours Iraqi Homes Have Electricity - 10.9 in May 2007
Average Daily Hours Baghdad Homes Have Electricity - 5.6 in May 2007
Pre-War Daily Hours Baghdad Homes Have Electricity - 16 to 24
Number of Iraqi Homes Connected to Sewer Systems - 37%
Iraqis without access to adequate water supplies - 70% (Per CNN.com, July 30, 2007)
Water Treatment Plants Rehabilitated - 22%

RESULTS OF POLL Taken in Iraq in August 2005 by the British Ministry of Defense (Source: Brookings Institute)

Iraqis "strongly opposed to presence of coalition troops - 82%
Iraqis who believe Coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security - less than 1%
Iraqis who feel less secure because of the occupation - 67%
Iraqis who do not have confidence in multi-national forces - 72%

Source

Well done, you're using stats and "surveys" that are years old to prove a point now. The people of Iraq and Afghanistan are better off now than under the tyranical regimes that existed before. You honestly expect me to believe that the people of those countries were better of under Saddam or the Taliban?

Regadless of the reasons we went to war (which am I sure we were lied about) the fact remains these people will be better off now than if we had left them to their fate under the previous despots.

Originally posted by Prince Of Darkness
Hmmm...so by writing "bearded cowards" you are actually talking about their religion in a biased manner which in turn makes your statement racist taking in consideration that Sikhs also keep beards and other religious and non religious folks keep them too for fashion purpose (bikers).

Oh really? I never knew that! Thanks for enlightening me on the use of the beard in modwern society. I guess that explains the hairyness on my own face then... Thanks for that..

Sarcasm aside, calling someone a bearded coward is in no way racist. As you pointed out, any male can have beard, so at best I am being sexist but as a male you'd have a hard time making that stick.

My reasoning is thus, they have beards and are cowards (explain later) - hence, bearded cowards. Nothing more, nothing less.

Originally posted by Prince Of Darkness
Anyway, so how are they cowards? They are protesting against something which they find wrong on the road (which is legal I may add) instead of indulging in illegal activities, so how did that made them coward?

Because they call for Jihad, the overthrow of the State and the deaths of British citizens, but when push comes to shove, do they actually follow through on their threats? No, because is is all bravado. They know if they actually tried it they would be stamped on.

Originally posted by Prince Of Darkness
Oh you mean to say they should give up their right to protest and instead sit in homes behind curtains which will make them brave. Hmm...do you also do that?

Stop trying to put words in my mouth. If you cannot debate reasonably, then what's the point?

Then they could rape their sisters and stone their mothers at will,

I am sure you may be speaking from some experience or probably have witnessed them doing so, did you? Oh I get it you read on the western media...blah blah blah blah

Because, in area's of the world were these people have power it is exactly what they do. Prove me wrong.

At any rate, any comparison to Christianity will have bugger all affect on me. I despise most religions and the idiots who follow them. That's right, I called ALL religious people idiots.

Originally posted by Prince Of Darkness
For example Saddam Hussian...war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Saddam was killed by Iraqi's. Not entirely sure what vague point you're trying to make, but you are failing miserably.

Originally posted by Prince Of Darkness
I dont think you have the option to actually "allow" since the Taliban is still fighting and the US and Afghanistan govt. have been in secret talks with Taliban for peace which as per the news sources Taliban has rejected. It's the great powers now democratic Afghanistan (backed by US, UK and other NATO powers) that are begging Taliban to join the government.

Hardly and you're using al-jazeera while belittling those of us who use "western media"? Hypocrite? I think so...

reply to post by CX


I don't think you'll find any disagreement from anyone here that people other than "white christians" made as much of a sacrifice as anyone else. What are you trying to prove?

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by CX

 

I don't think you'll find any disagreement from anyone here that people other than "white christians" made as much of a sacrifice as anyone else. What are you trying to prove?

Stu...like many others, today is probably one of the longest days of the year for me. I went to pay respects with my kids, i saw the grave i posted a pic of, thought of this thread so i took a pic. Simple as that.

Not trying to prove anything as far as i know, it was more of a reminder to many people that will come through this site that the few we saw at those protests, do not represent the whole of the muslim religion.

Some of the comments i have seen online seem to imply that all muslims burned poppies the other day. I am merely showing that some religions did as much as any of our soldiers to gain the respect of a poppy wearer.

I promise you, on days like today, the last thing on my mind is trying to prove something to anyone.

In fact, your last sentence sounds a bit like me when i've had a crap day with all of this, so with that in mind, i say with all honesty i hope the day has been ok for you.

CX.

It's unkind to minimize anyone's sorrow, or celebrate their loss.

reply to post by CX


Fair enough

I think in all honesty it is worth pointing out to some that people of all creeds have made sacrifices which is why we use this day to remember them, hence why I find this whole "protest" idea and the hijacking by these extremists most distasteful.

And yes, today has been a strange one. Lots of my family going back generations has served so it is very personal too me, plus I have friends and family who are currently serving. The manner of these protests has left a very bitter taste in my mouth and I have had to truly hold back on here, lest I collect a few little red stickers like others have.

Originally posted by stumason
The manner of these protests has left a very bitter taste in my mouth and I have had to truly hold back on here, lest I collect a few little red stickers like others have.

I agree totaly.

The art of writing a post, then going away and having a cuppa and a think before posting is an art form i have mastered greatly in recent times. I imagine it has saved me much bother.

CX.

reply to post by Soshh


You think "what is there to remember" is an insult?

Ohh darn, you are sensitive..

That is not an insult, that is a disagreement. Look deeper in to it, why do you want to remember for 2 minutes per year the tools of war, but not the millions of innocents who died due to those wars.

If these soldiers went to wars according to their own consent, and if they were not brainwashed in to believing they are fighting for freedom and justice, then I would stand with you for five seconds, the other 1 min 55 seconds I would stand for the million more freedom fighters, the Iranian freedom fighters who fought against Iran, the Iraqi freedom fighters who fought against Saddam but bio/chem weapons were used with the help of US against them.

The freedom fighters who fought against USSR.
The freedom fighters who are fighting against the Zionists.
The freedom fighters in Africa.
The freedom fighters in South America.
The freedom fighters in the Pacific.

Sorry mate, I for one will not respect a culture which gives its moment of silence to those who were forced to kill and be killed, rather than those brave men and women who went and fought when they didn't have to.

Just because I don't respect it, doesn't mean I disrespect it. Just because I don't disrespect it, doesn't mean I will respect.

The above being said, I can alway disagree with any culture, or any other idea, and put my arguments in front of you to justify why I disagree.

If you don't like it, try something..

reply to post by oozyism


You're obviously missing the whole point. Remeberence Day is about EVERYBODY that died as a result of War, not just Soldiers. The two minutues is to show respect to all who gave their lives as a result of conflict.

Then again, I suspect you are deliberately not "getting it" so as to start a fuss.

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by oozyism

 

You're obviously missing the whole point. Remeberence Day is about EVERYBODY that died as a result of War, not just Soldiers. The two minutues is to show respect to all who gave their lives as a result of conflict.

Then again, I suspect you are deliberately not "getting it" so as to start a fuss.

OK, now it is getting better and better.

Since this is for all of the people who died as a result of war and conflict then does that mean the moment of silence is also for Nazi Germany soldiers? Because they also died because of war and conflict, and they were also forced to fight just like Western soldiers.

reply to post by oozyism


Yes, exactly. If you paid any attention to recent years Remeberance services and the other memorials for D-Day and such, you'll see veterans and people of all nations taking part, including those of the Axis. In fact, recently, the German authorities went to great lengths to locate the family of dead crew members of an RAF bomber shot down during a raid.

Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by Soshh

 

You think "what is there to remember" is an insult?

Ohh darn, you are sensitive..

Nah, I know it is. It isn’t up to you to decide what people find insulting. I’m not sensitive at all, I think most people would find it insulting if someone said that their dead friends are not worth remembering.

If you don't like it, try something..

What do you suggest?

Originally posted by TheLoneArcher
I try my hardest to practice tolerence and see the views of others. However, after reading this, I am finding it difficult. These people should have been arrested for trying to incite hatred. Personally, I think they were lucky not to be lynched. I served, my kids areserving as we speak. My eldest son is in bomb disposal. Soon, he will be risking his life in a Muslim country to clear IEDs from their roads and buildings. What thanks is he going to get in light of this?

I am ashamed to admit this, but if I had witnessed this act first hand, I would have responded extremely violently.

You got the mason logo in your avatar part of the elite i guesse don't care about your secrets but I don't agree extreme violence maybe a fair fist fight would of been great tv i love watching boxing i say let them take to the streets and have a fist fight if anything guns down bombs down and every one fight with their fist here in america you cant get a fair fight in our ghettos try to get a sack of green in the wrong part of town.... All this whining for nothing life go protest them and quit sitting on the keyboard. Some people HAVE to join the serivce because money is so tight i feel bad for the people who have to fight these wars for that reason... It is not nice to disrespect anyone but beat them at their own protesting game if your really mad extreme violence gets you no where... what do you care your going to get all your families inheritence greedy mason

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by oozyism

 

Yes, exactly. If you paid any attention to recent years Remeberance services and the other memorials for D-Day and such, you'll see veterans and people of all nations taking part, including those of the Axis. In fact, recently, the German authorities went to great lengths to locate the family of dead crew members of an RAF bomber shot down during a raid.

Almost all of my concerns have been solved thanks to you.

One more left.

Doesn't this remembrance day encourages the next generation to join the army without questions asked, and then be forced to fight in wars which they know nothing about?

Shouldn't this remembrance day have a special clause stating that it is against forced departure of soldier to the battlefield, without any objection?

Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by Soshh

 

You think "what is there to remember" is an insult?

Ohh darn, you are sensitive..

That is not an insult, that is a disagreement. Look deeper in to it, why do you want to remember for 2 minutes per year the tools of war, but not the millions of innocents who died due to those wars.

Why the hell do you keep dehumanizing our dead? Does referring to our great grandparents as 'tools of war' settle some childish little victory inside you Oozy? Because every time you say your comments are based on a disagreement as opposed to you mocking them, you are doing just that.

It's called trolling Oozy, but to a keen eye, you're obvious. Your intentions here are clear, a lot of members here have explained to you what this respect for the ceremony is based on, and yet you continue to mock, undermine, insult and patronise ATS members, whilst ignoring the posts which contain elements of rationality or any attempt to educate you.

This suggests you are blindly defending ANY muslim on the planet, and at the same time insulting all our ancestors and relatives in a subtle manner. Which means you have not come to this thread to learn anything. Just to mock.

You're a cruel person Oozy.