Suicide And The Aftermath.

Originally posted by andy1033
reply to post by v3_exceed

 

Man that is a very heartless post.
What percentage of people do you think are empaths, as you clearly are not one.

The whole concept of self termination stems from a "Me, ME ME!" attitude. To believe that death is some sacred sword that we wield as a final "FU" to the world that has, by our own perception, treated us so harshly, is just CRAP.

You want heartless, live the aftermath of suicides. See the children of single parent suicides sent off to Child Services, *(note gladiator school) to become criminals or prostitutes. Watch as others lives are destroyed in a selfish instant because someone felt things were too tough on them, mostly based on their OWN choices in the first place. (I say mostly as some things are out of one's control)

If a suicidal person would like to prove me wrong, they only need to recognize they have control over their lives and turn it into something they want to be proud of, something that others would be proud of. Should only take 70 or 80 years

..Ex

Originally posted by ThichHeaded

Wouldn't you think a suicide trying to deal with things as they were(are) is enough to show they care? They are trying to figure out everything to not do it before they actually do it.. They try every route before they go for it... Trust me on this...

Except a lot hide it so that people don't know they're going through it. If there was communication then maybe it'd prevent loss of life in the first place.

When you fill a cup past its limit you cant keep filling it...

No, but you could place a bowl underneath to catch any water that spills, or pour some into another cup to half the load.

From where I stand I feel that actually suiciding take more courage.. Imagine jumping off a bridge knowing your going to die, or playing with a gun that you know might have a chance in not killing you, or OD'ing and not dying and spending time in the hospital with charcoal in your stomach getting rid of the crap in there..

Both take a tremendous amount of courage. As for OD'ing and not dying? Been there, done that

There is always a chance that people wont kill themselves..

And there is always a chance that someone could have helped them, that someone could have helped ease thier pain.

- Phoenix

Originally posted by destination now

So I would not so much judge a person who committed or was contemplating suicide, just ask them why they feel that it is the only solution and to think very carefully about the people they leave behind, who are left feeling bereft and like they have obviously let the person down, and who will question themselves forever, thinking "Why?" "What else could I have done?"

Thank you. You worded this better than I did

- Phoenix

reply to post by v3_exceed


I'd have to say you're approaching the mater from a far too superficial vantage point and consideration. Many folks who contemplate, consider or attempt suicide often claim that they felt there was no one they could turn to, no one who would understand them, no one who would listen. Granted that may not have actually been the case, and it may have actually been more the result of their having turned inwards, having distrusted others or their feeling that their issues and concerns were unique unto themselves.

But to claim the vast majority are of the 'Me, My, Mine' selfish mindset, if you will, would certainly seem an ill-conceived self-centered perception in its own right. (?)

Originally posted by v3_exceed

Why would someone considering suicide care if they get banned? If you feel that you have NO IMPACT on the things around you, so whats the point? You believe people should care about suicides? How about suicides care about the havoc they wreak when they selfishly destroy the lives around them? Or do those lives count for nothing?

Suicide is and remains the most selfish single act a person can commit. You absolutely guarantee that you will NEVER help another person ever. And for this..you expect compassion from me?

..Ex

edit on 11/6/2010 by v3_exceed because: edit to add

You dont read well do you? This is a constant thing with me and I stated that I am being a pussy by not doing it, so my own cowardice is keeping me from doing it, I also stated last time i tried my sister called me and i couldnt go through with it because she wouldnt let me off the phone..(she heard the metal of the gun and was curious to what was going on)

I have tried 3 times in the past. razor blade, 200 sleeping pills JD and 32oz of beer, and a gun... i am allow to be a coward for a while longer, besides in that time I might find the epiphany I have been looking for, or just wasted time, who knows till that time comes.. statistically however i see a fail...

I am just biding my time till something happens.. thats all..

Besides this thread is to ask a question and I guess what the thoughts behind someone who has contemplated suicide before..

For most of my life I didn't understand, or even seek to understand what would motivate a person to commit suicide. I was compassionate to those that had attempted or succeeded, but it never went past that. Recently, though I have had to deal with my own depression and while I never realistically considered it, I did become quite curious about it. To the point of researching. Yes, suicide is devastating to those that are left behind, but to call those that have succeeded selfish shows selfishness to those that were suffering to the point of wanting to die. From my own experiences, depression is a selfish thing. For some time, the only thing I saw was my depression and how much I was suffering. It's a "can't see the forest for the trees" type of thing. What do you do when is not around you. In a sense the problem IS you and the only way to escape it is to end it. Or so it seems at the time. When I hear of someone that committed suicide, I do feel bad for the survivors, but mostly I feel sorrow that the victim was in so much pain as to end their own life. I'm rambling now, but I hope you guys understand the point I was trying to make.

I think one of the big problems is that suicide is such a taboo subject, no one wants to discuss it or to contemplate that someone they love could feel so bad that they would take their own life.

And of course the devastation caused by one suicide can then have a"knock on" effect leading those left behind to take their own lives.

Perhaps by talking more about suicide, in graphic detail, the same way they talk about drug use for example might be helpful, particularly in the case of teenage suicide, because I honestly believe that many of these deaths could be prevented as very often teenagers don't actually realise their own mortality and the after effects on families and friends, and I think many do not realise the finality of the decision and use the idea almost like the ultimate stomping out "Right, I'll go and kill myself, that will show you!" When in fact they had no real intention to die...

You should listen to the theme from M.A.S.H...
Personally its something I thought about a long time ago and contemplated...
I worked with many attempted suicide patients (also the ones that after numerous attempts got lucky..if you can call it that)
And from past experience working with these people there is a myriad of reasons why people decide to top themselves..ie desperation, feelings of worthlessness, attention seeking, loneliness, innability to cope with the stresses and strains of life, substance abuse/addictions, mental health, low self esteem sexual abuse.

There is no magic potion councelling that can cure ...but some coping strategies...never give up ...suicide is an option..the last one but every day is a new day with all it can be...and there will always be bad days ..but there will be good ones...suck the life out of the good days..NEVER give up.

One patient I looked after had overdosed..(had numerous attempts in the past) but this time the liver was totally buggered...the patient was told that the damage to her liver was so extensive that it was unlikely she would survive also that there was little hope of a transplant.

Sitting down and talking with this patient was pretty hard ..in the cold light of the day she was very afraid and didn't want to die...it was at the end of the day another impulsive act ..during a very low ebb.

The above was not unusual...I saw many present in my job that went through the same thing ..some we heard about onthe grapevine ..like oh !! did you hear mr so and so is dead ...found him in his flat dead he had OD'd did it right that time and another life passed with little notice.

Personally we all have a purpose..and yes life for some can be F***** hard but never give up ..find your purpose, love and suck up the good times, use them and remember them when times are hard ..take each day at a time.
Suicide is the last option ...its your choice make sure you have used your imagination and every option and gien time before you make the decision...but if this life is a game and in this life we are here to learn lessons...would be a real bugger if we have to do it all again...so stick with it ..live love and learn there is a plan and purpose for everyones life...

Bugger coming back again

Originally posted by hhcore
If the suicide is a selfish act because it leaves loved ones behind, why is it not a selfish act to want to keep somebody here that is beyond miserable?

...excellent question... my answer is - most folks are selfish, especially the ones who cant let go of a loved one who has no quality of life or no awareness...

...like the terry schivo case - i understand loving a child so much that the thought of being seperated from them via death is excruciating - but - using technology to "keep them alive" (although they're really not there at all) is so far beyond selfish that i dont have a word for it...

...i knew a lady that finally succeeded on her 7th "official" attempt... she'd been killing herself with prescription drugs for decades, even to the extent that her kidneys no longer functioned without intervention - but - all that was legal...

...when she finally succeeded, her children (grown) were very angry with her for a long time - because - they never gave credence to the reality that, when she was 5yrs old, she walked into her home just in time to see her father put a shotgun in his mouth and blow his brains all over the wall...

...takes a mighty big helpin of selfishness not to grasp how deeply that affected the little girl that woman used to be and, then, make it all about you and your whines...

...in a lot of countries, attempted suicide is a crime but only specific types of attempted suicide because no one wants to deal with the reality that most everyone is suicidal to an extent... the difference really boils down to how long you stretch out your attempts...

...examples - you are suicidal if you:
...drive too fast or recklessly (texting while driving)...
...drink booze, smoke ciggies or do dope...
...get off to being in war zones...
...swim with sharks...
...tease crocodiles...
...surf in hurricane surge...
...parachute out of viable planes...
...own wild predators (lions, tigers, bears)...

...some could say that some of those examples are due to being adventurous or brave - but - they're probably defending their own actions and are incapable of deep self-analysis to see why they do the dangerous things they do...

...while i believe that most everyone is suicidal to a degree, it makes me sad to know that someone is suffering so much that purposely ending their own life seems to be the only way out... makes me think of a lucinda williams song "sweet old world"...

...hang in there, ThichHeaded... life truly sucks sometimes but we still have the luxury of getting online and venting to people... some folks dont have that outlet or are too embarrassed to use it... try your hand at painting those really cool sunsets... ya never know, that could turn out to be something worth living for...

Originally posted by 12m8keall2c
reply to post by v3_exceed

 

I'd have to say you're approaching the mater from a far too superficial vantage point and consideration. Many folks who contemplate, consider or attempt suicide often claim that they felt there was no one they could turn to, no one who would understand them, no one who would listen. Granted that may not have actually been the case, and it may have actually been more the result of their having turned inwards, having distrusted others or their feeling that their issues and concerns were unique unto themselves.

But to claim the vast majority are of the 'Me, My, Mine' selfish mindset, if you will, would certainly seem an ill-conceived self-centered perception in its own right. (?)

Actually, I think I'm hitting it dead on. Not to make light of each persons individual plight, but we all suffer the same through out our lives. We all feel unloved at times, we all feel the world is against us at times. This is part of what we call life.

As you point out, people who contemplate or attempt suicide often relate that there was no one to turn to, but perhaps it is because that suicide wouldn't listen that there were people to turn to. Even in this thread there is an outpouring of people who will defend the potential suicide, offer help a shoulder etc etc. I believe this falls on deaf ears because as the poster pointed out they had visited 20+ councilors within a year to no avail. Surely 20+ trained people might have said something of value during that time.

In order to be helped we must first WANT help. Then we must be willing to trust in that help and work for ourselves to make our lives better. When a person will not do even that to help themselves why would anyone have compassion for that? I say it's selfish because I have seen the fallout of suicide and those they leave behind. How are those kids any less deserving of compassion as they did nothing to cause their own misery?

Often we are told that the suicide feels as though they are drowning. This is a good analogy as if you were in fact drowning wouldn't you grab the first hand that was stretched out to you? Of course you would, but the suicide does not. They ignore the hands and give up and die.

Originally posted by ThichHeaded
You dont read well do you? ....
Besides this thread is to ask a question and I guess what the thoughts behind someone who has contemplated suicide before..

Actually it is YOU that does not read very well. The title of the thread is "Suicide And The Aftermath" And my posts have been very much centered on the aftermath of the suicides, the misery they cause others they leave behind after their selfish act.

There are many in this thread that will happily provide a shoulder of understanding. I am not one of them. I have had to endure more than people would imagine. I come from a world of less than nothing yet I am worth over a million dollars today. I have well adjusted kids, a nice house and pretty much whatever I want. Had I killed myself when it would have been EASY, far easier than you know, I would have nothing. My children would not exist, my wife married to someone else.

If you are looking for the attention so often pursued by suicides, the compassion they often use as a drug, title your thread "Stop me from suicide" or "Help I'm contemplating suicide". The aftermath of suicide is without compassion for the dead person, that is something I reserve for the ones whose lives have been devastated and their left to answer all of their questions on their own. As I said before, my comments might seem harsh but they are no where near as harsh as the pain a suicide leaves in the people they leave behind.

..Ex

Originally posted by v3_exceed

Originally posted by andy1033
reply to post by v3_exceed

 

Man that is a very heartless post.
What percentage of people do you think are empaths, as you clearly are not one.

The whole concept of self termination stems from a "Me, ME ME!" attitude. To believe that death is some sacred sword that we wield as a final "FU" to the world that has, by our own perception, treated us so harshly, is just CRAP.

You want heartless, live the aftermath of suicides. See the children of single parent suicides sent off to Child Services, *(note gladiator school) to become criminals or prostitutes. Watch as others lives are destroyed in a selfish instant because someone felt things were too tough on them, mostly based on their OWN choices in the first place. (I say mostly as some things are out of one's control)

I am a prostitute and a criminal? *Looks around at my semi normal life having been the daughter of a single parent who committed suicide* Nope don't think so.
As cold as I have been accused of being when my mother committed suicide I felt nothing but relief.
Relived because I know longer felt responsible for "fixing her" Making things better for her. A very heavy burden for a teenager to face. I couldn't make it better and I knew she was no longer suffering. I understood her story.
While I was angry at some of the lifestyle choices she made that led her to this I understood her way of thinking. Not only did she have a horribly scarred mental past, she was suffering from a debilitating disease and in her mind she was doing so that I could have a life and do normal transitioning from teen to adult things instead of being her care taker.
Selfless act if you ask me.

reply to post by v3_exceed


Ahh no I asked a specific question about why people think a certain way after someone suicides..

I do not want pity, I do not want attention, I would have done it a long time ago if i wanted that..

My last few attempts were fails and didnt work out the way I planned. not a cry for help.. It was more bs after they didnt work out than what it was worth..

I can give a crap less what someone thinks of me really..
If some people have thoughts of me that are good.. fine, if they are bad, fine. if they are neutral fine.. in the end its what they percieve me as, not what i show them of tell them..


I made this post and asked a specific question with background on myself.. If i suicide at some point in the future so tf what.. I gave my time on this hellhole and it is enough to last alot of time for me at least.. I honestly think the time is spent here is to much time already..

This place is nothing but a bunch of bs, people screwing everyone else, people not giving a crap about others and people being so self absorbed in thier own bs to even consider thinking about someone else.. and the few people who do.. It sucks for them because they are trying to better life for those that dont even give a rats ass...

As I said.. Take this post for what it is.. I asked a question and you are a stunning example of how F'd up someone can be when someone is truely at the wits end and tries to find a better way out of something because of people like you can give a crap less of what they were going through...

Life is hard yes, life that is unbearable is just plain screwed up(damn ats filters and warns for swears)... sometimes it is better for someone to suicide than to deal with all the bs that life gives them..

Trying to be a normie is not something everyone likes in life...,
Being something your not is the worst life someone can have...

Take me for what i am... This post is to show people what some lives are like and some are not... Maybe some who are self centered should be more empathetic to others.. maybe then you will see being human is not so bad..

Here is a thought for you dude..

I believe that the case against suicide is a religious case. I belive that it triggers some kind of deep seated religious conviction. I have no problem with religious convictions. Suicides seen to be criticised because their actions make them damned ,as they become what the buddhists call angry ghosts. This conviction seems to be held by many religions.

I was going to write something about suicide but I don't think it would be helpful. Sorry.

You can find some answers if you can quiet your mind. Answers will come out of the silence. Its not easy but its not impossible. You don't have to follow any rules or any made up BS. Just sit straight with your eyes closed and listen to see if you can hear the stream. Its as easy as that.

I came across this video and they way that they have managed to put their finger on the pulse of the planet at this moment in time blew me away.

Come to my house and stay with my family for a while. We have too many horses to ride and have lots of fun. I don't know you personally and I don't make this offer lightly. I hope that a visit here will clear your head and change your perspective.

Originally posted by calstorm

I am a prostitute and a criminal? *Looks around at my semi normal life having been the daughter of a single parent who committed suicide* Nope don't think so.

No I don't suspect you are a prostitute. But you are a rarity as well. Your mother was suffering form a disease, and you were responsible for a lot more than you should have been at that age. You didn't quit, you didn't kill yourself. In your case it may really have been a selfless act by your mother to free you from what she thought was an unfair burden. But understand this is really an exception.

Imagine a woman, married to a business man. She raises the kids, keeps the home and runs the day to day. She gets a call one day that her husband killed himself after a stock market crash. She has nothing, no skills no money, just the kids and now a welfare system that she really didn't deserve. In one selfish instant her life turns to crap. Now lets suppose she in turn kills herself, feeling the despair that many feel on welfare. What happens to her previously well adjusted kids? Ever been in the child welfare system? those kids are presented a world where many of the kids they meet will be from abused homes, and ready to abuse others. This example has happened many times over the past few years. We might not always hear about it, but it is happening.

On a humorous side In the movie Beetlejuice it worked out that Suicides became the civil servants of the after life. Might be something for people considering suicide to think about before trying it.

..Ex

reply to post by v3_exceed


If suicide is selfish, then what is unselfish? Living? How can living be unselfish in this me-mine-my world where people gather, collect and worship homes, cars, clothes, jewelry while others are starving to death? While some eat like gluttons in multiroom palaces many eat little and live in shacks. How is it that many of those with so little seem so content, happy and willing to share what they have and give love to others while those with much are eager to possess and gather for their own selfishness and satisfaction? Yet our society calls this unselfish? People live in mansions they don't need and have more money than they could ever spend. That in my eyes is selfishness. They could live in a smaller place and feed someone or supply a roof over someone's head. Western society condemns those who take their own lives because they say they cause pain to those who are living. But what about the emotional pain the person who is having thoughts of suicide is experiencing? Do you really think their pain doesn't count? What about companies that let go of employees in order to keep making a hefty profit themselves? Are these people not also causing people pain? Or the husband who cheats on his wife? Or the person who abuses a child?

Pain is pain whether you think you can justify it or not-be it physical or emotional pain. How can we as a society call ourselves civilized when we inhumanely psychologically berate people and think we can justify it? People do it all the time. People say they care-but do they really? Do people really grieve the loss of a persons life-or is it really their own personal loss that they are grieving? Their inability to now visit and spend time with the one that they grieve?

reply to post by LAinhabitant


No according to him they are idiots, they are self centered a-holes, they are selfish... bla bla bla..

Never once can he think that something so fed up can lead 1 person to do an act...

and to the guy you asked the question to..

People dont think about that beatlejuice crap when they suicide. I am almost sure they are thinking of how much relief they will get instead of being in the quagmire called life.

reply to post by ThichHeaded



My experience has been that people who have never been severly depressed or fought with suicidal thoughts truly have no concept of what a person who has them goes through. I empathized with others who did but never understood how profoundly depressed and all encompassing these thoughts can be to a person no matter how hard they try not to have them, or how they try to think positively.

Here is an excellent article on societal views on suicide in the past. It is a long read that is well researched with 2 pages of works cited and discusses the suicide of Judas in the Bible and how differeing societies view suicide.

findarticles.com...

an excerpt:

In order to "save" Judas, this article begins with the descriptive task of assessing Judas's reputation among biblical scholars. Second, it examines briefly suicide in the first century Mediterranean world, and argues that many scholars who comment on Judas's suicide do so by projecting their largely modern, North Atlantic prejudices back into the first-century CE world, which had no knowledge of this modern concept of suicide. Third, this article engages in a cross-disciplinary study of Judas's suicide in light of Emile Durkheim's theories of suicide and social integration in an effort to show how Judas's suicide must be understood in terms of first-century cultural values such as honor and shame. Fourth, this article works cross-culturally to examine the way Judas opted to kill himself as reported in Matthew 27:3-10. In this section, we examine the act of hanging in light of another honor-shame culture where hanging is a predominant method of suicide. Finally, this article, which focuses solely on Matthew 27:3-10, shows that when it comes to first-century cultural norms, Judas's death was a noble one in which he atoned for his sin of betraying "innocent blood" (Matt 27:4) by killing himself, while the real culprits were in fact the Jewish leaders. We begin, then, with a survey of Judas's reputation among modern biblical scholars.

Living with suicidal thoughts is rough for anyone. Seek out someone to talk to, seek a higher power, seek the beauty in little things (it's there-sometimes we just have to look for a long time), call a suicide hotline if things get real bad, or go to a hospital. Talk to folks on here. Even when there seems to be no light at the end of the tunnel-there usually is, it's just sometimes we have our eyes closed so tight we don't see it. Accept love when it is given.

Originally posted by v3_exceed
Actually, I think I'm hitting it dead on. Not to make light of each persons individual plight, but we all suffer the same through out our lives. We all feel unloved at times, we all feel the world is against us at times. This is part of what we call life.

As you point out, people who contemplate or attempt suicide often relate that there was no one to turn to, but perhaps it is because that suicide wouldn't listen that there were people to turn to. Even in this thread there is an outpouring of people who will defend the potential suicide, offer help a shoulder etc etc. I believe this falls on deaf ears because as the poster pointed out they had visited 20+ councilors within a year to no avail. Surely 20+ trained people might have said something of value during that time.

In order to be helped we must first WANT help. Then we must be willing to trust in that help and work for ourselves to make our lives better. When a person will not do even that to help themselves why would anyone have compassion for that? I say it's selfish because I have seen the fallout of suicide and those they leave behind. How are those kids any less deserving of compassion as they did nothing to cause their own misery?

Often we are told that the suicide feels as though they are drowning. This is a good analogy as if you were in fact drowning wouldn't you grab the first hand that was stretched out to you? Of course you would, but the suicide does not. They ignore the hands and give up and die.

..Ex

I can certainly appreciate your stance with regards the 'victims' of suicide, since those left behind to 'handle' the aftermath are most definitely just that - its victims.

Though I was merely approaching the subject from, or attempting to through, the 'eyes' of those who contemplate, consider and/or attempt such.

No. I don't agree with suicide as an 'option', per se, as I personally feel there's Always another way out, another 'option' available than just throwing in the towel on the single most precious thing afforded each and every one of us - our life, opportunity.

Me?
I could never even contemplate nor consider doing so as there's always tomorrow, another day, another sunrise, etc. which with each and every one we're presented an opportunity to right the wrongs, move forward, put the past behind us, what have you.

Unfortunately, and as calstorm mentions, there are those who feel they're actually doing others a favor by bowing out of this realm. Whether that be due to circumstances beyond their control such as a terminal disease and/or perhaps they feel they've dug such a hole for themselves via poor decisions, addiction, etc. that they see it as the only way to escape yet all the while eliminating others of the burden the suicide sees themselves as being. (?)

A mixed up, near inconceivable thought process for me, but apparently not for the many who act on such day in and day out. Sad? Of course it is. A 'relief'? Apparently so, for some.

Again,
I fully agree with you that the 'victims' of suicide are those left behind to handle and deal with the aftermath.

I guess what I don't agree with is the idea that it could have been avoided if only 'they' had reached out or accepted 'help' from others. There are far too many dynamics involved to simply wrap the sum total into any one 'package', if you will. (?)

Sometimes, due to mental health issues that have gone either unnoticed or undiagnosed, as well as in cases where the individual may not have had readily available access to familial/friend's support due to their specific situation or location at the time.

In the end,
It's not always a matter of the individual having entirely given up on life or themselves, but more a case of their feeling of having no one there for them at That moment, imo.

An unfortunate scenario no matter how you look at it, with the ultimate answers to said questions, queries and contemplations lying solely with those who've succeeded.