'Damn right' I personally ordered waterboarding: Bush

Originally posted by Dantas

Originally posted by FoosM
Im sorry, but the US has become officially the "bad guy"
the "evil Empire". And the people they are fighting, are the "rebels".

And I was under the impression all along the Empire were the good guys and the Rebels were the bad guys. Let's see, it started with the Senate which is like the UN. Everyone has a representative there but nothing gets acomplished due to the bureaucracy. The Emperor wanted to break up the Senate (UN) and allow each system to govern themselves albeit with him as a dictator but a benign dictator who's forces collect taxes and keep peace and order in the galaxy from organized crime and war and who promotes free trade and capitolism. Kind of like the President of the United States. So you are saying that America is the Empire which is absolutely correct and that is a good thing. The Rebels are those who wish for the UN as the head of a NWO. I'll take the Empire any day.

Lets be real, the only reason why you would choose the US as the empire/dictator is because you are not in the cross hairs of missile, gun, or any other form of US/Euro weaponry. So yeah, be glad that you are part of the lucky sperm club. But when the tables get turned, dont come crying to all those empathetic anti-war protesters and civil rights activists who realize the world is populated with people and families, like themselves, who want nothing more than to get through life in one piece.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by airspoon

 

"The method, which most describe as torture, has since been banned by the Justice Department."

"Since been" implies to me that at the time he approved it there was no Justice Department stance against the practice. hindsight is always 20/20, but I cannot affirm here that if faced with the same proposition from the CIA I wouldn't have agreed to it also.

If I were told lives could be saved by torturing a criminal, for the sake of the lives that could be saved I'd be inclined to do the same. But I admit that's conjecture at this point. I dunno, hard decision to make.

Being a part of "The Lord's Army", and I am being serious here, how does WWJD fit in to the picture? Would Jesus be there holding down the prisoner and pouring the water on his/her face? If you think yes, where in the NEW Testament would the character of Jesus support a yes opinion? Turning over the tables of the money changers at the Temple won't apply here. I would really like to get your take on this.

It’s completely legitimate to disagree and to have difference of opinion but why do so many people engage in labeling others as ‘liberals,’ ‘America bashers’ or ‘terrorist sympathizers’ for wanting the government to uphold existing law and respect human rights? Are we back to McCarthyism? That unless you are an absolute defender of your government’s actions you are unpatriotic or aiding the enemy? It’s as if these concepts are practically backwards in our current culture, political climate and discourse. And it’s certainly a shame that it too seems to have poisoned the discourse here on ATS to some extent.

It’s perfectly fine to disagree and argue over the methods that should be used in fighting a certain threat, but our Constitution is clear in saying that the government cannot suspend or ignore the constraints set forth in the documents just because it’s convenient. And whether you agree with them or not, the United States has signed and ratified — and in many cases, Americans have drafted and championed — several treaties that regulate what conduct is permissible during armed conflict, how detainees must be treated, and as per the supremacy clause in the Constitution, those treaties and the laws reflected in them are “the supreme law of the land.”

Everyone here that has defended the methods employed by the United States has done so by appealing to emotion and nationalism. These things have no relevance to the questions of lawfulness of the actions and conduct currently being discussed. Moreover, as mentioned by other members, torture has been shown to not be effective in retrieving reliable information, which defeats the purpose and concern expressed by those who make an argument in favor of it based on the hypothetical “ticking-bomb scenario.”

There are many instances were laws are ambiguous but the question of whether torture is ever permissible is not one of them. And no matter how many euphemisms and legal gymnastics the Bush and Obama administrations come up with, that reality cannot be obfuscated. Only people oblivious of the law, or who let their emotions and unconditional patriotism overcome reason and respect for the rule of law, can be convinced that US officials didn’t, and don’t, violate the law by continuing or condoning the practices.

I never said I'd choose the U.S. to be the dictator, i said that scenerio is like what we have here in the U.S. with the president compared to the emperor who is like a benign dictator.

Originally posted by DuceizBack
Wow
it's #ing war..

too many damn liberals
if world war 3 breaks out i hope all the liberals be quiet....

So are you suggesting everything is ok?
ie bombing schools ?
Allowing rape gangs to run wild through the country?
Murder of non-combatants?
etc..
So where do YOU suggest we draw a line if anywhere?

Originally posted by airspoon
reply to post by pscysm

 

Sometimes you have to do what you abhore to do the right thing. That's why it takes strength to stay the course and not be swayed by public opinion.

Therein lies the problem. You see, the USA is supposed to be a Democratic Republic, which means that our politicians need to listen to the people. Somewhere along the line (recently), that notion has been lost on the American people. The public is being indoctrinated to believe otherwise.

They work for us, at least that is supposed to be how it works, not the other way around. In despotic dictatorships, the "president" has the authority to stay the course, in spite of popular public opinion and in that case, freedom is absent. Without public opinion driving policy, we don't have a government "of", "by" and "for" the people and we might as well crumple our Constitution and throw it away.

Sadly, far too many people are all too willing to delegate their critical self thinking skills out to people who are only looking out for their own best interests, even when it conflicts or contradicts their own. The truth is, we are government and we decide policy and until that is realized once again, we will continue to be taken advantage of and the idea of "freedom" is only a buzz-word card, designed to give the illusion that the American dream is still out there. Our founding fathers would be absolutely and justifiably ashamed.


--airspoon

edit on 5-11-2010 by airspoon because: (no reason given)

Very well said ! I feel the exact same way.
I'm not sure EXACTLY when we forgot WE THE PEOPLE are in charge but we need to remind ourselves we are the boss and they are the employee. If that employee fails in their job, they must be dismissed and replaced with someone who will fulfill the will of WE THE PEOPLE, within the confines of the CONSTITUTION....Yeah, anybody remember the CONSTITUTION? Other than this poster??????

GREAT POST !
THANKS !!!

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by airspoon
There we have it, a confession to war crimes, though I doubt that any justice will ever be served.

If he's guilty of war crimes then so is everyone who knew about it before it happened and as it was happening, including Nancy Pelosi. Obama approved torture overseas. If you charge Bush43 then Obama's gotta' be charged as well. We'd sure empty out DC if we were to go through and weed those folks out. Hmmm .. might be a good idea.

Anyways, at least he owns it. Unlike others who push it off and lie saying they knew nothing about it only to be exposed as a liar later.(Pelosi).

Well just to put my 2 cents in. I am ABSOLUTELY and UNEQUIVOCALLY in favor of putting anyone and everyone on trial who is suspected being involved in these CRIMES...and they are crimes...whomever they may be.
We've elected officials to fulfill the will of WE THE PEOPLE, and they've failed to fulfill their contract with us. In addition, while performing their jobs, they have committed crimes. If we don't insist they stand trial, we lose our country...PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
No more freedom.
No more democracy.
No more LIFE, LIBERTY and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.
NOTHING.....

Originally posted by CommonSensation
Unbelievable! GWB ordered water be poured onto the face of a known enemy plotting mass attacks on the United States of America! What a monster! We should hang this asshole right now, how dare the former leader of our country act in such a way that would result in critical intelligence being gathered that could possibly save American lives!

I'm just glad we finally have someone in office currently that takes pride in protecting this country, dramatically improving the economoy, creating vital jobs for all Americans, and has reduced our national debt...

Oh wait...

Well to start, torture has NEVER been shown to provide actionable intelligence. Even the interrogators who used water boarding have stated that and throughout history, this has shown to be true.

So where else should we use torture? What about if the bad guy has kidnapped someone, we have the bad guy but he isn't telling where the kidnapped person is. Is it ok to torture then too? How about if the bad guy is just a suspect who hasn't confessed? Is it still ok at that point? What about a suspect who may have robbed someone?
I'd really like to know where you would draw the line.
Also keep in mind that obama inherited a recession, 2 wars, a massively corrupt banking system, etc...
Is obama perfect? NO. Is he better than bush and his cronies ? YES

Originally posted by Informativeme
Torture is an effective method of interrogation.

This is absolutely not true. Even the people who did the interrogations stated as much.
Next time read up before you post such blatantly false dribble.

Originally posted by jfj123

Originally posted by Informativeme
Torture is an effective method of interrogation.

This is absolutely not true. Even the people who did the interrogations stated as much.
Next time read up before you post such blatantly false dribble.

Oh, torture is very effective! You just gotta know what buttons to push. One of the most powerful motivator on earth is having your kids in harms way while you watch. Water Boarding was the least of it.

Kids were raped in front of their mothers in Iraq. I am sure it worked great, as the mothers would have turned on anyone.
www.google.com...

If you remember there was a big stink. Obama condemned those responsible but prohibited the pictures and video from being released citing the safety of US personnel.

no doubt the tea party will be on this real quick..

out there protesting...making sure America upholds is laws and punishes both powerful and powerless alike...


huh?

no?

-crickets-

oh well, so much for them being the patriotic sort.

Originally posted by aptness
It’s completely legitimate to disagree and to have difference of opinion but why do so many people engage in labeling others as ‘liberals,’ ‘America bashers’ or ‘terrorist sympathizers’

I am a liberal...and proud of it (its the intellectual viewpoint)

I am American bashing, but not America bashing...I expect for the "greatest country ever in the universe etc" to uphold some principles.

I am not a terroist sympathizer...hense why Bush needs to be immediately cuffed and tried in a world court for warcrimes against humanity. he is a traitor and a fairly evil SOB whom put a black mark on the American brand...anyone whom believes our fearless leader should authorize breaking international law, and our own principles is anti-american..simple as that.

so Cons...you going to start the movement to get Bush charged and arrested, or are you too wimply for that and need the strength of the pro-american liberals to do it for you?

I never ever made the mistake of thinking conservatives had spine, and they won't turn on one of their own, even when one of their own is a anti-american terroist that happened to be president once.

prove me wrong...make some phone calls..demand justice for all terrorists...or not (no suprise)

I think people need to wake up and realize what REAL torture is. Hot or cold rooms, loud music, pouring water on someones face is not REAL torture.

Capt. Berryman, a Marine pilot during the first Gulf War knows what REAL torture is. He was shot down after Iraq invaded Kuwait. I met the man once in North Carolina at Cherry Point Marine Corps Air Station in the early 90's.

Look up his story. I would wager having your legs shattered with a lead pipe fits my definition of what REAL torture is.

Originally posted by Darkrunner
I think people need to wake up and realize what REAL torture is. Hot or cold rooms, loud music, pouring water on someones face is not REAL torture.

Capt. Berryman, a Marine pilot during the first Gulf War knows what REAL torture is. He was shot down after Iraq invaded Kuwait. I met the man once in North Carolina at Cherry Point Marine Corps Air Station in the early 90's.

Look up his story. I would wager having your legs shattered with a lead pipe fits my definition of what REAL torture is.

You realize "real torture" went on all the time in the middle east conflicts..people die from being beaten and tortured to death. the only offical acknowledgement is the waterboarding, the rest is no comment.

Can people die from waterboarding? yes...they can go into cardiac arrest easily because of how intense the human body reacts to it.

if its not torture, try it on someone you love, I mean, its all fun and games, right? You cant say that a woman that got punched twice in the face isn't abused because you know someone whom got punched 10 times...abuse is abuse, and torture is torture.

Originally posted by Donkey_Dean
Oh, torture is very effective! You just gotta know what buttons to push.

Simply not true. Physical torture such as waterboarding has NEVER been shown to provide actionable intelligence.

As a rule, torture is not an effective method of extracting information from prisoners, most experts agree.

"If anything useful came out these interrogations in Iraq, we would have heard about it," said Alfred McCoy, a University of Wisconsin-Madison historian and author of "A Question of Torture: CIA Interrogation, From the Cold War to the War on Terror" (Holt Paperbacks, 2006).

A switch from more physical methods of torture to the psychological approaches emerged in the following decades in places such as Vietnam, Central America and Iran, McCoy said, without any definitive proof of their effectiveness.

www.livescience.com...

The CIA inspector general in 2004 found that there was no conclusive proof that waterboarding or other harsh interrogation techniques helped the Bush administration thwart any “specific imminent attacks,” according to recently declassified Justice Department memos.

liberalvaluesblog.com...

it is easy to find experienced U.S. officers who argue that torture is NOT effective.
www.washingtonpost.com...

This is just a microscopic example that shows physical torture is simply not effective and never has been. Even the CIA says it's not !!! That should tell you something !

I dont know why people quote all this geneva convention, international rules, and war crimes etc. Its obvious that Bush wont get charged for any of it, no mater how much he admits to it, no matter even if he hands himself up to the police, its not going to happen, and it is futile to hope otherwise.

If there is something to hope for, hope that religion is very well real and there is a heaven and hell and only then, only then true justice will prevail. Everything else, all the rules amid this dark a time hold no justice. The system is so backwards that evil people are made to look like heros, yet the good are made to look like the evil instigators.

I think its too late to rely on governmental approaches. Go take up arms ad become a freedom fighter.. wont work? Go make a citizens arrest... haha no that wont work? So what will? The only thing we have is the internet, use it to spread truth. Tell your friends, your families and teach everyone about the atrocities that are PROVEN to be going on. no doom or gloom talk, this is real talk. And if doom n gloom is what age we are living in, then embrace the reality of it. Knowledge is the only power we have...

Originally posted by Darkrunner
I think people need to wake up and realize what REAL torture is. Hot or cold rooms, loud music, pouring water on someones face is not REAL torture.

Capt. Berryman, a Marine pilot during the first Gulf War knows what REAL torture is. He was shot down after Iraq invaded Kuwait. I met the man once in North Carolina at Cherry Point Marine Corps Air Station in the early 90's.

Look up his story. I would wager having your legs shattered with a lead pipe fits my definition of what REAL torture is.

Any type of torture is horrific and those involved in it should be punished.
That being said, just because there are worse types of torture, doesn't mean the lesser types aren't still torture.
By your logic, if someones legs were cut off as part as torture, and someone else' legs were only shattered, the latter is no longer considered torture....huh???
Why isn't it reasonable to say any kind of torture is wrong and it shouldn't happen????

reply to post by jfj123


You are right, but if you want to change attitudes towards it you have to find the worst of the worst. Even then I dont think it would really matter.

The people believe what ever they hear on the news. America is turning communist? MSNBC said it, it has to be true! What country on Earth would condem Health reform for its citizens while supporting the laws that monitor every word they speak on the phone or internet. Peer in to their homes and cars without cause or warrant? etc etc. All the American values I was raised to hold dear are gone!

Do you really think Americans arent smart enough to know that a war on terror will only spawn more terror? How exactly does a war against a handful of guys result in the complete invasion of multiple countries?

I think what he did was for the better good of the whole.
We live in a fascist society cloaked in the ruse of democracy. It's pretty obvious that's what it's coming to.

Unfortunately the following speech will never happen?

'My Fellow Americans: As you all know, the defeat of the Iraq regime has been completed.
Since Congress does not want to spend any more money on this war, our mission in Iraq is complete.
This morning I gave the order for a complete removal of all American forces from Iraq . This action will be complete within 30 days. It is now time to begin the reckoning.
Before me, I have two lists. One list contains the names of countries which have stood by our side during the Iraq conflict. This list is short . The United Kingdom , Spain , Bulgaria , Australia , and Poland are some of the countries listed there.
The other list contains every one not on the first list. Most of the world's nations are on that list. My press secretary will be distributing copies of both lists later this evening.
Let me start by saying that effective immediately, foreign aid to those nations on List 2 ceases indefinitely. The money saved during the first year alone will pretty much pay for the costs of the Iraqi war. THEN EVERY YEAR THEREAFTER It'll GO TO OUR SOCIAL SECURITY SYSTEM SO IT WONT GO BROKE IN 20 YEARS.
The American people are no longer going to pour money into third world Hell holes and watch those government leaders grow fat on corruption.
Need help with a famine ? Wrestling with an epidemic? Call France .
In the future, together with Congress, I will work to redirect this money toward solving the vexing social problems we still have at home. On that note, a word to terrorist organizations. Screw with us and we will hunt you down and eliminate you and all your friends from the face of the earth .
Thirsting for a gutsy country to terrorize? Try France or maybe China .
I am ordering the immediate severing of diplomatic relations with France , and Russia . Thanks for all your help, comrades. We are retiring from NATO as well.
I have instructed the Mayor of New York City to begin towing the many UN diplomatic vehicles located in Manhattan with more than two unpaid parking tickets to sites where those vehicles will be stripped, shredded and crushed. I don't care about whatever treaty pertains to this. You creeps have tens of thousands of unpaid tickets. Pay those tickets tomorrow or watch your precious Benzes, Beamers and limos be turned over to some of the finest chop shops in the world. I love New York.
A special note to our neighbors: Canada is on List 2. Since we are likely to be seeing a lot more of each other, you folks might want to try not pissing us off for a change.
Mexico is also on List 2. Its president and his entire corrupt government really need an attitude adjustment. I will have a couple thousand extra tanks and infantry divisions sitting around. Guess where I am going to put 'em? Yep, border security.
Oh, by the way, the United States is abrogating the NAFTA treaty - starting now.
We are tired of the one-way highway. Immediately, we'll be drilling for oil in Alaska -which will take care of this country's oil needs for decades to come. If you're an environmentalist who opposes this decision, I refer you to List 2 above: pick a country and move there.
It is time for America to focus on its own welfare and its own citizens. Some will accuse us of isolationism. I answer them by saying, 'darn tootin.'
Nearly a century of trying to help folks live a decent life around the world has only earned us the undying enmity of just about everyone on the planet. It is time to eliminate hunger in America . It is time to eliminate homelessness in America . To the nations on List 1, a final thought. Thank you guys. We owe you and we won't forget.
To the nations on List 2, a final thought : You might want to learn to speak Arabic.
God bless America .. Thank you and good night.'
If you can read this in English, thank a soldier.

reply to post by AnteBellum


Don’t fall for that tripe! The social services in this country have made America what it is today. Without social services we would expect to see large portions of our populous living in the dirt and shanty towns and unthinkable crime would have been the standard in place of the quality of life we all take for granted. Having Social services do not make America a Socialist country!

We don’t pull the weight of others because it is the humane thing to do. We do it to maintain a certain standard of living. America will never be a communist country friend EVER! Have a look at cities like Lagos or similar African cities. That’s what we would have had without the social services! Allot of the world lives without social services and the trade off is a substandard existence for everyone. Meeting the needs of our citizens and maintaining a high quality of life are not Marxist Fascist or anything un American they are simply necessary for our continued way of life.

Those lazy folks that we complain about will never get off their *sses, and they would bring down our standards of living if we did not keep them out of the dirt do to speak.

Try Somalia friend they have no social services whatsoever. I am sure you would love it.

Am I wrong? Say something please!