Is Abovetopsecret a disinfo site?

This topic makes me kind of angry...

ALL OF YOU SHOULD BE SKEPTICAL. Every single UFO image or video you come across, you should be skeptical about. You should have "prepared tactics" for each one so YOU can find the truth for yourself.

If you accept every UFO sighting as real, and you don't try to debunk it yourself, you are doomed to be deceived.

You are supposed to challenge everything so you can figure out if it is real or not. You should even challenge your very own eyes and ears because even those can play tricks on you, and your mind could be fooled.

ATS is full of expert UFO researchers, not disinfo agents. They have seen hoaxers come and go, they have seen misidentifications come and go.... They don't just believe any and all crap that is thrown at them. They have a series of steps they follow before they even begin to believe it is something they can't identify. Everyone interested in UFOs should follow these steps. If you don't you will just end up believing lies.

If you are not skeptical you are just gullible.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by Shades1035

 

Yes.

I for one am a government agent.

I've come to pollute the world of UFOlogy with logic, reason and healthy skepticism... everyone knows that promoting skepticism, in favor of blind gullibility and pseudoscience, is actually a disinformation tactic designed to discredit the idea that aliens are here.

In truth aliens are here, in fact one is standing behind me right now reading my thoughts... but I don't mind, I welcome our alien overlords.

Sadly the fact that we only use the left side of the brain seems to be ok for some. To me it is like working on one cylinder when we have two. We are like cripple people really.

I could say that I have an equal right to bring a dose of esoteric science, intuition, pure inspiration and pure idea just as you have a right to bring logic, reason and healthy skepticism.

reply to post by crowdedskies


Absolutely. That's the point of calling it healthy skepticism. Its no good to be so skeptical that you never allow any new information in, that's just being closed minded. Skepticism, correctly applied, is one of the best ways to tell fact from fiction as it allows us to accept something only when it has sufficient evidence or solid reasoning behind it. I welcome all types of thinking so long as we don't take things to the extremes of those who

1) Accept everything they're spoon-fed... you know who I'm talking about, the ones who believe in essentially everything from reincarnation to reptilians, crystals, Jesus, alien hybrids and they believe it all together at the same time even if the belief systems aren't at all compatible.

2) Reject everything and refuse to accept the possibility that something weird or unexplained is truly going on.

Hmmm, no
The real fact is there are many people out there that are less informed than others.
There are people here on ATS which have a keen eye of what would be real, and well,, what is just a lantern.
If this check was not in place, then things would just escalate and soon the sky would be falling..
ATS has good balance in all forums.
so , look at it as a debate, and if your right,.. you win

Originally posted by 0ne10
This topic makes me kind of angry...


If you accept every UFO sighting as real, and you don't try to debunk it yourself, you are doomed to be deceived.

If you are not skeptical you are just gullible.

edit on 28-10-2010 by 0ne10 because: (no reason given)

Do you actually believe there are such people ? There is no one here who would accept every sighting as real. We all use our common sense and approach every post in a skeptical disposition. the OP was refering to an army of skeptics who are totally inflexible all the time, irrespective of footage.

Originally posted by crowdedskies

No. It would become merely a factual site. The fact would be the footage that has been posted . The conclusion would be entirely the reader's. It is effective in that it gets you to do your research.

As you should have realised nobody ever agrees with other people views on ATS. What is the point of civil discussion if there is never agreement .

How do you establish these "facts" without discussion and analysis of the data presented on this site ?

Posting footage does not make it a fact .

On the issue of agreement :

I engage in many civil discussions, the outcome is rarely uniform agreement between all contributors, quite frankly it would be a little naive to expect such.

I believe having my ideas and opinions challenged , is a healthy process ...... albeit often requiring more effort on my part to elucidate my position. I encourage my friends to play devils advocate ...... the shortest conversations are usually where everybody is just patting each other on the back - repeating talking points.

If somebody challenges your position ............meet the challenge !. It is the source of growth both for intellect and personal character. Being civil keeps the discussion focused on the topic and not the person expounding his/her opinion.

This works for me ..... but its just my humble experience.

Originally posted by Untergang
reply to post by CX

 

This is not a recent developement. Every topic discussed on ATS is immediately debunked by the usual suspects on this site. It's been happening for all of the good five years I've been visiting it.

If somethings debunked though, its generally because it can be. Debunking is not a nefarious activity, its something people here should do, and they do it well with research and facts. If it can't be explained and members still dismiss it, then its down to us to ignore them, no matter how influential some may think they are.

I think that too many people think there are disinfo agents on this site, when all it is is certain seemingly confident members who can express themselves better than others.

A nice big avatar and some intelligent sounding posts does not mean they are right.

CX.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by crowdedskies

 

Absolutely. That's the point of calling it healthy skepticism. Its no good to be so skeptical that you never allow any new information in, that's just being closed minded. Skepticism, correctly applied, is one of the best ways to tell fact from fiction as it allows us to accept something only when it has sufficient evidence or solid reasoning behind it. I welcome all types of thinking so long as we don't take things to the extremes of those who

1) Accept everything they're spoon-fed... you know who I'm talking about, the ones who believe in essentially everything from reincarnation to reptilians, crystals, Jesus, alien hybrids and they believe it all together at the same time even if the belief systems aren't at all compatible.

2) Reject everything and refuse to accept the possibility that something weird or unexplained is truly going on.

I can agree with you here. To be honest in some of my posts in other threads I may have come over a tough skeptic. But it all depends on the footage.

reply to post by crowdedskies


Yes, I do. There are hundreds of those people all over ATS.

Every UFO topic that is made is real to them. Any attempt to show them it isn't real is met with insults about being a "disinfo agent". Unless that "disinfo agent" proves to them without a doubt it is fake, using logic, and proof, they will believe it is a UFO. Even then, some still believe it's a UFO even in the face of facts, because they too are conspiracy theorists who believe there is some massive cover up attempt on every sighting that hit's YouTube.

reply to post by Shades1035


Is Abovetopsecret a disinfo site?

No. It is a SUPERIOR INFO site.

After a little over four months since I joined, I have learned that we cannot believe everything we see, everything we hear, everything we "feel"...

Many members here have seen a lot of garbage, in and out. They sometimes come across as "direct" when they give their opinion but if one reads, if ones listens and follows the filtering of crap posted here (like anywhere else), then learning is possible. That is not disinfo. It is serious thinking. And learning.

After such filtering is done, what remains is the cream of the crop. Superior info.

Personally, this is what I think ATS is all about.

.

Originally posted by UmbraSumus

How do you establish these "facts" without discussion and analysis of the data presented on this site ?

Posting footage does not make it a fact .

On the issue of agreement :

I engage in many civil discussions, the outcome is rarely uniform agreement between all contributors, quite frankly it would be a little naive to expect such.

I believe having my ideas and opinions challenged , is a healthy process ...... albeit often requiring more effort on my part to elucidate my position. I encourage my friends to play devils advocate ...... the shortest conversations are usually where everybody is just patting each other on the back - repeating talking points.

If somebody challenges your position ............meet the challenge !. It is the source of growth both for intellect and personal character. Being civil keeps the discussion focused on the topic and not the person expounding his/her opinion.

This works for me ..... but its just my humble experience.

edit on 28-10-2010 by UmbraSumus because: (no reason given)

Firstly, I call the fact of posting a footage a fact in itself. If the information accompanies the footage, then I have what I need to make my conclusion. What the person saw , did and felt is in the accompanying information. I would not need anymore. It is then a matter of presenting it to my own benchmarks (which do get updated as I strive to test my assumptions and theories).

Secondly , as far as debates are concerned, I would agree that a civil discussion , as you say above , helps you grow. But when the topic being discussed is old and battered it is not the same. Imagine if I ask two people to debate and discuss what could lie in the centre/crust of the earth. Here both would gain from each other, being a new topic which nobody understand. There would be scope for changing viewpoints. But not so witha UFO topic.Just like religion , it has become inflamed !!!

reply to post by CX

No, you're wrong. See, I just debunked you. That was merely presented as an example, so don't take offense.

I'm certainly not saying that I agree with the term disinfo when describing this site.

There is a difference between debunking and disproving however.

You had me at "you're inclined to believe at least some of the stuff that is put out there", that is just downright silly. I think it's a good thing that a site like this one has a lot of members who are interested in a certain topic, yet do care to question what they are shown; as opposed to jumping right onto some 'belief'.

Originally posted by 0ne10
reply to post by crowdedskies

 

Yes, I do. There are hundreds of those people all over ATS.

Every UFO topic that is made is real to them. Any attempt to show them it isn't real is met with insults about being a "disinfo agent". Unless that "disinfo agent" proves to them without a doubt it is fake, using logic, and proof, they will believe it is a UFO. Even then, some still believe it's a UFO even in the face of facts, because they too are conspiracy theorists who believe there is some massive cover up attempt on every sighting that hit's YouTube.

I am not too sure. I am aware of the army of 'Disclosure' seekers and the one that believe in Galactic empires. But when it comes to footage analysis even the gullible ones seem to have some basic common sense, although not enough at times.

Originally posted by Untergang
reply to post by CX

 

No, you're wrong. See, I just debunked you. That was merely presented as an example, so don't take offense.

Lol none taken.

You still didn't prove me wrong though...so i will take no notice.

CX.

reply to post by crowdedskies


Disabling comments would do a disservice to those of us who don't have the luxury of becoming an expert in avionics, engineering, video analysis, the history of UFOlogy, astronomy, physics, etc...

Thankfully ATS has brilliant experts in ALL of these fields who take the time to analyze and comment upon what evidence the OP provides thus allowing the rest of us to gain an informed position about what we are presented with rather than just going on our own "gut" feelings.

These experts do this free of charge, for us, of their own volition. And you want to know the fun part? They aren't here because the CIA is paying them. They are here because they are hungrily seeking out those rare finds that stand up to the scrutiny!

They are seekers just like the rest of us and they deserve to be thanked for their contributions. Not demonized.

In other words, have you hugged a Phage today?

~Heff

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by crowdedskies

 

Disabling comments would do a disservice to those of us who don't have the luxury of becoming an expert in avionics, engineering, video analysis, the history of UFOlogy, astronomy, physics, etc...

Thankfully ATS has brilliant experts in ALL of these fields who take the time to analyze and comment upon what evidence the OP provides thus allowing the rest of us to gain an informed position about what we are presented with rather than just going on our own "gut" feelings.

These experts do this free of charge, for us, of their own volition. And you want to know the fun part? They aren't here because the CIA is paying them. They are here because they are hungrily seeking out those rare finds that stand up to the scrutiny!

They are seekers just like the rest of us and they deserve to be thanked for their contributions. Not demonized.

In other words, have you hugged a Phage today?

~Heff

Phage happens to be one of my favorite posters. He is so matter of fact and quite knowledgeable. I consider myself to be skeptical as well. My point is not about disabling comments . It is more an agreement with the OP and my suggestion that it would be better if we could explore footage without the irritating comments.

Perhaps I am one of those types who like to do their own research. I have never accepted an idea because some eminent scientist said this or that. Regarding the experts on ATS, there appear to be less and less of them.

There are many among us who spend all their time on this site debunking and ridiculing all and any form of evidence proposed. All the way up to the point, and beyond in many instances, when they themselves are proven wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt. When the evidence presented proves to be thoroughly unexplainable, they tend to simply quit responding. Many of these same people claim to be in search of truth, themselves, yet will never admit to being wrong, though demand such from everybody else. Such is their hypocrisy.

Granted, it works both ways, but the undeterred debunker is not labeled a "cook" or "nut" or "fanatic" or, dare I say, "HOAXER". More often than not however, the presenters of evidence are far more willing to be proven wrong, and capable of admitting such, lest they risk being branded any number of the above labels. As have been my observations at least. This, in my eyes, genuinely drags into question the motives of many of the rountinely debunking members.

This is my opinion.

Originally posted by CX

Originally posted by Untergang
reply to post by CX

 

This is not a recent developement. Every topic discussed on ATS is immediately debunked by the usual suspects on this site. It's been happening for all of the good five years I've been visiting it.

If somethings debunked though, its generally because it can be. Debunking is not a nefarious activity, its something people here should do, and they do it well with research and facts. If it can't be explained and members still dismiss it, then its down to us to ignore them, no matter how influential some may think they are.

I think that too many people think there are disinfo agents on this site, when all it is is certain seemingly confident members who can express themselves better than others.

A nice big avatar and some intelligent sounding posts does not mean they are right.

CX.

edit on 28/10/10 by CX because: (no reason given)

I have absolutely no problems with that at all. However and here i shall have to use the R word to make the point so i apologise beforehand.

The Mogul explanation for the R word.... it is still trotted out as fact by debunkers worldwide despite the fact that someone used the Freedom Of Information Act to access the records for 1947 and there in the records in black and white it shows quite categorically that the balloon they claimed was responsible had its' flight cancelled because of bad weather. Furthermore, all other Moguls can be accounted for no matter how secret their mission might have been. In short, there are NO missing mogul balloons in 1947. Any that were mislaid were found. So there it is proof positive that the mogul balloon explanation for the R word is a lie.

That in no way makes what happened of extra terrestrial in origin, it means we are still being lied to by the Government, that's all.

The Travis Walton thread tells you much you need to know about some people who are doyens of the debunkers. Travis by explaining his side has shown quite clearly. Some people have set out to a character assassination on him and have quite knowingly used testimony from people claiming to be his relatives who are total and utter frauds.

The sad truth is this. There are those who are first over the barricade when it comes to Chinese lanterns with a totally holier than thou attitude and how can you be so dumb? Who will carry on quoting Mogul balloons and Travis's fake relatives testimony on other threads when they , if they did an ounce of proper research, they would know they are pedalling total bs.as fact.

Debunkers and believers are exactly the same, just opposite sides of the die. They both cherry pick that evidence which suits their already decided mind and neither side will even countenance taking on board anything that might dissuade them from that belief. Debunkers are not skeptics they are believers just negative believers.

We all wish we had the pat answers to give people, we don't.

ATS should not be about scoring points off people and indulging in schoolboy oneupmanship. It should be about trying fathom out what is actually going on..

The truth is plain and beyond reproach. There are phenomenon in our skies and our seas we as yet, do not have an explanation for. That does not make them aliens, it means they are unknown. As a race we only ever progress by asking the difficult questions not the easy ones. If you don't like difficult questions go join a cookery forum cos this is one is about asking the the uncomfortable questions.

Chinese lanterns are not difficult questions so they attract a horde of replies from those who choose to dodge the hard ones. Shag Harbour is a difficult question, Operation Mainbrace is a difficult question..... be my guest start a thread on either read someone like Karl 12s threads and count the replies. That will tell you all you need to know about a certain tribal mental attitude on this forum.

To close let me just leave you with this. If you have spoken 1 to 1 with a person who did a full tour of duty over Germany in a bomber during WW2 as a tail end Charlie you are talking to someone who for months every time they left their bed knew they had, a more than 80% chance of dying that night. When you have seen that self same person cope with the sort of situations with an almost scary clam, when others are totally losing it all around them you know it takes something to even ruffle them. When you see that same person's hand tremble as they raise the glass of Scotch to their lips as they tell you about something they saw one night, you know it wasn't freaking swamp gas bouncing the reflection of Venus onto a cloud and reflecting off a Chinese lantern. To my mind that means there is something out there, worth investigating no matter how uncomfortable for us a race the answers might be.


We might be all alone in this Universe in terms of intelligence, well that's scary in itself. On the other hand we might not be and whether they like to admit or not that simple possibility scares the crap out of a lot of people and is the prime motive behind their often totally illogical and irrational behaviour and their utter desperation to catalogue all UFOs as Chinese Lanterns and misidentification's. Those people do not come here for truth they come here to seek to prove to themselves over and over , there is nothing weird going on that might push them down the food chain even further from the front of the queue than they already feel they are.

As much as I detest people who absolutely must debunk everything, it has helped me to come here and try and add balance to what I see/read on a daily basis.


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