Why is it okay to discriminate against gay people?

Originally posted by Target Earth
OK I like how Religion is attacked... as usual, in being the blame, for all the Gays ills. why is it OK for the "Tolerant"
to push their belief down everybody else's throat. What business is it of anybody's, if somebody choses not to agree with the gay lifestyle? Does it really affect your life is People don't like gay people? I thought It was a God given right to be what ever you want to? If you choose to be a mean spirited homophobic, more power to ya..
it doesn't affect me how other people think...

If it were not for the religious crazies enforcing laws that restrict other individuals freedom I would agree with you. However, it was the Mormons who financially supported the fight against Gay partnership. It is the Catholic faith which puts pressure on governments and others in positions of power to prevent equality and freedom for all. It is Christians who regularly preach to the masses in support of violence and hatred.

I wish it were as black and white as you suggest, but it simply isn't. Otherwise, gay people would be seen as equal, kids wouldn't be killing themselves because of right-wing religious nuts verbally and physically abusing them on a regular basis, and we all wouldn't be having this debate, again.

I'm sorry to say it, but it is a fact that most major religions encourage intolerance and hatred. I don't need any of them to tell me that they agree with my lifestyle. I really don't care if they like the idea of me sleeping with other men or not.
But I certainly do care when those same religious preachers start to support hatred and intolerance because they "are always right" and everyone else "is wrong and will burn in hell for eternity".

THAT is why religion is dragged into this argument. Because they are, predominantly, responsible for the violence, hatred, intolerance and injustice in our society,

/rant

reply to post by jfj123

look I don't want to be the token hate monger, but no matter how much you educate people, no matter how many gay pride parades you have, people who don't like gay people, are not going to like gay people. I have no personal hatred for the gay community. but I do find gay jokes funny, does this make me homophobic? I find this one of these topics that really make no difference in peoples lives. Has anybody ever changed their views on gays from the internet. People who are homophobic have a fear of gays... I have a fear of spiders, I know most spiders can't harm me, but I still make my wife kill them, when they are in the house... hatred for gays, may seem silly to people, but If thats how they feel, and want to feel... there is nothing you can do to change it. calling them intolerant and racist doesn't mean anything. What Rights do gays have that say they have to be treated in a certain way, anyway? Haven't we all been beaten down by somebody at some point in our lives? The Right for the Pursuit Happiness, is a Right, but not a sure thing.

reply to post by detachedindividual

look I'm Religious and I don't agree how the Gay's are treated by the Church... yes being gay is a abomination, but Christ Died for all our sins, not just straight people....I believe if only the heterosexuals had salvation, well this would limit God's Grace. If asked if, I believe Homosexuality is wrong? I would say yes... but no more wrong then any sex...

Originally posted by Target Earth
reply to post by jfj123

 

look I don't want to be the token hate monger, but no matter how much you educate people, no matter how many gay pride parades you have, people who don't like gay people, are not going to like gay people.

True.
And no matter how much tolerance is preached, people will still hate blacks, jews, mexicans, polish, etc...
It doesn't mean we should stop trying to educate against bigotry and hatred.

I have no personal hatred for the gay community. but I do find gay jokes funny, does this make me homophobic?

Depends. I'm polish and I find many polish jokes funny Why aren't there any ice cubes in poland ???

I find this one of these topics that really make no difference in peoples lives.

It shouldn't. Everyone should have equal rights to LIFE, LIBERTY and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS. EVERYONE should have equal protection under the law. The problem is that this is just another group being discriminated against which means that it does make a difference in peoples lives. Discrimination is generally not a good thing for anyone.

Has anybody ever changed their views on gays from the internet. People who are homophobic have a fear of gays...

I'll be honest, I think lesbians are hot and gay men kinda gross. The reason is I'm a heterosexual. I can't understand why men would like other men because that's not in my makeup. On the other side of the fence, gay men can't understand how I would like women. I know I'm dumbing it down but that's the best I can do.
I guess my point is, I don't have to like something to support it because it's the right thing to do.

I have a fear of spiders, I know most spiders can't harm me, but I still make my wife kill them, when they are in the house... hatred for gays, may seem silly to people, but If thats how they feel, and want to feel... there is nothing you can do to change it.

You are absolutely correct. We cannot change how people feel BUT we can change how they act on their feelings.

calling them intolerant and racist doesn't mean anything.

It's giving them a proper label.

What Rights do gays have that say they have to be treated in a certain way, anyway? Haven't we all been beaten down by somebody at some point in our lives? The Right for the Pursuit Happiness, is a Right, but not a sure thing.

If a black person is assaulted because they are black, that is a hate crime. There are laws to protect them.
If a gay person is assaulted because they are gay, that is also a hate crime and there should be laws to protect them.
What rights do YOU have to say that YOU have to be treated a certain way?

reply to post by jfj123


I just had this conversation with my wife, today I asked her If she would rather have me cheat on her with a girl or a dude... She said she would much rather have it be with another woman... I on the other hand would much rather have her cheat on me with a girl because you are right... Lesbians are Hot. it's the total guy double standard... Gay men, kinda gross, while gay woman are kinda goddesses.
but the whole Hate crime thing is kinda unrealistic. White Kid punches a Black Kid, is the white kid a racist, or was the black kid a jerk, who kinda had it coming. and to depend on a jury (who are usually made up of the biggest idiots that the courts can find, mind you) to decide the fate of a kid who in most situations, just had enough of the black kid. I'm not saying that hate crimes don't go on, but our courts competent enough to tell the difference, between a white kid sticking up for himself, and a full fledge member of the aryan nation.

Originally posted by Target Earth
reply to post by jfj123

 

but the whole Hate crime thing is kinda unrealistic. White Kid punches a Black Kid, is the white kid a racist, or was the black kid a jerk, who kinda had it coming.

That's a bit of a blanket scenario. If, as it turns out, the black kid was attacked because he was black, then yes the white kid is a racist. Just as if a black kid attacked a white kid for being white, he would also be a racist. The big difference is INTENT.

and to depend on a jury (who are usually made up of the biggest idiots that the courts can find, mind you) to decide the fate of a kid who in most situations, just had enough of the black kid. I'm not saying that hate crimes don't go on, but our courts competent enough to tell the difference, between a white kid sticking up for himself, and a full fledge member of the aryan nation.

Are jurors competent enough? I've been on several juries and I would say NO. For the most part, jurors are morons.
There are some very obvious cases of hate crimes. As example, recently people left leaflets in a neighborhood near me that stated all N***ERS should move out or else. Obviously this would be hate based intimidation and not because all black people living there are jerks.

I get your point and I acknowledge that the race card and maybe the gay card may be getting pulled in situations in which they are not relevant.

reply to post by jfj123


Hmmm, what do you mean by the traditional parents not being able to get it right?
I would like to hear (read: read) the reasoning behind your decisions.

They need to stop whining and complaining, all of us deal with discrimination in one form or another! At least they can prove it and have protection under the law, someof us aren't afforded that consideration, they need to just start suing they are PROTECTED!!! I wish I had the priveledge of being protected by laew or even the ability to prove discrimination!!!!

The United States military has enlistment standards that discriminate against far more than gay people. Men who are less than 60 inches tall will not be admitted in the military, and Men over 80 inches will not be admitted either. For females the height standard ranges from 58 inches, to 72 inches. People whose body fat exceeds the standard set by the military will not be accepted. Certain medical conditions will disqualify a person for admission into the military. A history of psychotic disorders will disqualify a person, and being flat out insane will also disqualify a person. If a person is intoxicated or on drugs at the time of application, this will automatically disqualify them for voluntary admission. Questionable moral behavior is another disqualification for admittance in the military, including alcoholism, drug dependence, sexual perversions, (which includes pedophiles, bestiality, necrophilia, and other various sexual perversity's), people whose enlistment is clearly not in line with military standards, say like foreign spies are discriminated against too! Illegal aliens can't join the military...and of course, age is a factor, and those octogenarian's are regularly discriminated against by the U.S military. There ain't no "don't ask, don't tell" for old folks, fat people, psycho's, drug addicts, alcoholics, illegal aliens, short people, abnormally tall people, and nefarious evil spies.

Thanks for the replies!

Originally posted by Somehumanbeing
reply to post by jfj123

 

Hmmm, what do you mean by the traditional parents not being able to get it right?
I would like to hear (read: read) the reasoning behind your decisions.

well if you notice, I quoted the word "traditional". The meaning would be the standard male/female, married couple raising children as seen through the eyes of your stereotypical "traditional" person.

The divorce rate among male/female married couples is absurdly high. Parents today are too self involved to raise kids properly so they run wild. Now I'm not suggesting all parents are like this but many are and honestly, never should have been parents.

Also, my statement was a bit tongue in cheek so take it for what it is.

Originally posted by ldyserenity
They need to stop whining and complaining, all of us deal with discrimination in one form or another! At least they can prove it and have protection under the law, someof us aren't afforded that consideration, they need to just start suing they are PROTECTED!!! I wish I had the priveledge of being protected by laew or even the ability to prove discrimination!!!!

actually, they are not currently protected under US anti-discrimination laws.
Just a FYI.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
The United States military has enlistment standards that discriminate against far more than gay people. Men who are less than 60 inches tall will not be admitted in the military, and Men over 80 inches will not be admitted either. For females the height standard ranges from 58 inches, to 72 inches. People whose body fat exceeds the standard set by the military will not be accepted. Certain medical conditions will disqualify a person for admission into the military. A history of psychotic disorders will disqualify a person, and being flat out insane will also disqualify a person. If a person is intoxicated or on drugs at the time of application, this will automatically disqualify them for voluntary admission. Questionable moral behavior is another disqualification for admittance in the military, including alcoholism, drug dependence, sexual perversions, (which includes pedophiles, bestiality, necrophilia, and other various sexual perversity's), people whose enlistment is clearly not in line with military standards, say like foreign spies are discriminated against too! Illegal aliens can't join the military...and of course, age is a factor, and those octogenarian's are regularly discriminated against by the U.S military. There ain't no "don't ask, don't tell" for old folks, fat people, psycho's, drug addicts, alcoholics, illegal aliens, short people, abnormally tall people, and nefarious evil spies.

What you're referring to are PHYSICAL or MENTAL conditions which would make enlisting, simply not an option. I would think as a highly educated person, you would be able to draw a distinction between these "conditions" and homosexuality.
And I'm sure you'll recall that many retired military personnel were re-activated which included people 60+ years old.

reply to post by jfj123

What you're referring to are PHYSICAL or MENTAL conditions which would make enlisting, simply not an option. I would think as a highly educated person, you would be able to draw a distinction between these "conditions" and homosexuality. And I'm sure you'll recall that many retired military personnel were re-activated which included people 60+ years old.

Clearly you don't think at all, you quoted my entire paragraph, and pretend that questionable moral behavior was not one of the "conditions" which the military uses to disqualify those applying for entry. Regardless of what you personally might think about homosexuality, the question of morality regarding homosexuality has been in question for several millennium.

The point I made also, (as usual), gets lost on you. Other federal agencies are prohibited from discriminating because of physical, and even some mental conditions, but not the military. The point, which clearly needs to be spelled out for you as if it were being spelled out for a child, is that the military discriminates, and does so for military purposes.

Originally posted by Cataka
It just doesn't make any sense to me - this is accepted negative behavior.

If you talk negatively about black people - you're a racist - you can get fired or sued for discriminating against them.

If you talk negatively about jews - you're a racist - you can get fired or sued for discriminating against them.

If you talk negatively about pretty much anything you can get fired or sued or accused of being a bigot/racist/etc.

And there seems to be a double standard - if you fire someone for being gay at the workplace they can sue you - but our country, military and our President are OPENLY against gays in the military. They are flat-out discriminating and showing the same kind of behavior that would get people sued, yet that's where we are.

Is being gay a race? I just thought I would ask that...hehe

The term Gay is in reference to a behavior as is the term Straight, where being Jewish or Black is not a behavior. To disagree with any behavior does not make on a racist….hehe geez

I find it really interesting that we have a black (Or at least part black) president and he is actively discriminating and opposing gays in the military, yet his race was just as discriminated against for hundreds of years. If it weren't for "CHANGE" (His favorite word!) then he would still be among the discriminated and hated (though it's still up for debate as to how equal they are even in 2010).

The problem with the military is they do not have a clue how to handle the gay factor. I think not until the day we go fully co-ed on everything can we progress with open gays in the military. As it is right now where do you house them, what bathrooms should they use etc. To say it is ok for a open gay man to shower next to me is like saying I should be able to walk into the female shower tent too.

But once again you want to spread some form of "equality" around a behavior and that is what we call the Gay Agenda. There are endless other minority behaviors out there that even gay people disagree with, so what makes their behavior any more special than all these others?

i believe gays get more respect than smokers and have more rights than smokers. they are gay by choice and they are smokers by choice. apples to oranges? yes! id like to see smokers get aleast a controlled environment to smoke in but im not gonna start a movement over it. u might say gay wont harm others around you but i find it disturbing.


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Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by jfj123

 

What you're referring to are PHYSICAL or MENTAL conditions which would make enlisting, simply not an option. I would think as a highly educated person, you would be able to draw a distinction between these "conditions" and homosexuality. And I'm sure you'll recall that many retired military personnel were re-activated which included people 60+ years old.

and pretend that questionable moral behavior was not one of the "conditions" which the military uses to disqualify those applying for entry.

I never suggested that being gay was "questionable moral behavior", as you put it.

Regardless of what you personally might think about homosexuality, the question of morality regarding homosexuality has been in question for several millennium.

Only for people such as yourself. Ever hear of LIVE AND LET LIVE?

The point I made also, (as usual), gets lost on you. Other federal agencies are prohibited from discriminating because of physical, and even some mental conditions, but not the military.

And what would the reason for that be? And let's not pretend that the military is the only "agency" that has a selection process. Try going to the police academy if you're too short or can't swim. Do the police discriminate against non-swimmers because they won't allow them in the academy?

The point, which clearly needs to be spelled out for you as if it were being spelled out for a child, is that the military discriminates, and does so for military purposes.

Oh I completely understand your point, I just disagree that what you call "discrimination" actually is TRUE DISCRIMINATION. Your failure to understand what discrimination is, frankly, is your issue and not mine. But a person as smart as you CLAIM to be, should know that, RIGHT ?

Originally posted by strafgod
i believe gays get more respect than smokers and have more rights than smokers. they are gay by choice and they are smokers by choice.

Ah the typical ignorant, "gay by choice" argument !
So that means you are NOT gay by choice right? That means you are attracted to the same sex but refuse to act upon your desires. Interesting you'd be willing to admit that but also condemn "gays".
Good on you for coming out mate

reply to post by jfj123

I never suggested that being gay was "questionable moral behavior", as you put it.

No one said you did, you are just too quick to reply, and too unwilling to read what was written. Read again what I wrote. I was criticizing you for ignoring that I had mentioned that the military uses questionable moral behavior as a disqualification for service.

Only for people such as yourself. Ever hear of LIVE AND LET LIVE?

This has nothing to do with me or my opinions, this is the military's standard of enlistment. Not too good at differentiation, are you?

And what would the reason for that be? And let's not pretend that the military is the only "agency" that has a selection process. Try going to the police academy if you're too short or can't swim. Do the police discriminate against non-swimmers because they won't allow them in the academy?

Of course, the police is a para military organization, but you are only underscoring my point. The point being that discrimination happens, and happens for more than just gay people.

Oh I completely understand your point, I just disagree that what you call "discrimination" actually is TRUE DISCRIMINATION. Your failure to understand what discrimination is, frankly, is your issue and not mine. But a person as smart as you CLAIM to be, should know that, RIGHT ?

Your opinion, or mine, regarding how a word should be defined is irrelevant. Words are defined as they are.

Discrimination defined:

1. The act of discriminating.
2. The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment.
3. Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners.

Webster's Definition

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
Of course, the police is a para military organization, but you are only underscoring my point. The point being that discrimination happens, and happens for more than just gay people.

You're lumping a job qualification as discrimination. You're not understanding the difference. As example, under your definition of "discrimination", I would be discriminated against if I applied for a job as a brain surgeon but did not have the ability to carry out the job requirements. Do you understand the difference now ?????