I suspect reality is as follows, and I want liberation from it

I had a near death experience, a passenger in a car crash, 41 years ago. I never got as far as seeing the 'light', but I did 'leave my body' and became a circle of twirling lights, spinning upwards to the southeast. Even without '' turning around' I saw other cars stop, a spot light shone on me, a blanket put over me, and my last thoughts were 'At least my Life Insurance is Double Indemnity'.

In all my life before and after I have never had such a pleasant, secure, worriless feeling in whatever length of time that took.....before I was suddenly back in my body. That was some disappoinment.... even though I had a little 5 year old daughter at home awaiting me.

After that I have never feared death, but the way the world is today, I would rather have continued as a twirling circle of lights to whereever that took me.

reply to post by canadiansenior70


i bet you never where the same again. not necessarily in a negative sense.

i did have experience with a NDE "victim". his character seemed way to different after that. the funny thing is we never told him that he died, but he knew. it was naive and childish from us. now i believe he feels a bit detached. sometimes even lonely. like he saw something never meant to see.

disappointment seems fitting. i never thought on this one.
maybe i'm just naive and childish.
welcome back! the world would be smaller without you.

A friend's thread goes into so many different spiritual beliefs, well, because we're sharing. Its always best to do so with respect for everyone. He told me that, beliefs are simply that, beliefs, and the real tests are in actions. Its what we do, and how we conduct ourselves with others, how we inter-relate, learn to withdraw from arguments and disagreements, and be the adult in the interaction that really counts, modeling love and kindness and consideration to others, forgiving everyone, forgiving self as well, learning our lessons, looking honestly at our difficulties and how whether we are being loving, compassionate. We don't have to be right, can be the peacemaker. And to always lend a helping hand wherever possible.

We're not judged on our beliefs, but the true tests occur each day, in our dealings with others, and how we conduct our lives. Our behaviors.

To the original poster:

Hi...

First off, I loved reading your post... very intelligent and well thought out.

You may not like this but I will try to "shatter" some of your conceptions.

Who made the universe the way it is?

We did. That's right, it was us. We designed it so that when you reincarnate you won't remember your past lives. That is how we designed it and that is what we all agreed upon. Think about it, matter and energy cannot be destroyed. They can take different forms however. What are the implications of this? If the universe is 13.5 billion years old then that means every single one of us has a soul that is 13.5 billion years old. But if you could remember all your past lives, wouldn't that drive you crazy? We purposely designed it so that we can't remember our past lives so that we won't go crazy.

You say you want liberation from this reality...

Well guess what? We all have free will, we all chose to be reincarnated and to deal with whatever life deals us. You saw this reality and everything that was in it, and you said to yourself, "I want to give this reality a shot. I may die young or I may die old... but whatever happens, I want to experience this reality". And so you were born, no one forced you into it. You came into this life, this reality, fully cognizant of all the risks and the rewards. To say you want liberation from something you yourself chose to experience... is irony. There were probably other different realities you could have chosen to experience, but you chose this one... perhaps because you wanted a challenge.

That's my take on things.

reply to post by Sabier

You write with such certainty. From where comes your knowledge of such matters?

reply to post by NewlyAwakened


I get told that too at times, yet everyone posting is posting usually from strongly held beliefs, and some who have experiences, that and have been seeking within, and there are many ways to share beliefs, depending on our moods, usually just shooting them out is the fastest. Speaking truth from within, or as some do, truth they believe from an outer source, ie a religion, and still may be connected to inner experiences, is all anyone is doing or can do, no matter what their sentence structure seems like.

I agree with much of what Sabier wrote, except that we don't all have choices about this incarnation, for while the cosmos is akin to a holographic, simulated reality school, earth and planets like it are reform schools for many, due to past behavior and how we scored on our tests. For others they can repeats, like Groundhog Day the movie until we hit it right for advancement.

In infinity it is very hard to determine when this school began, however, for all happens concurrently, at once, in No Time, and everything that is now, was, and yet will be.

reply to post by schuyler


It seems to me like numbers two through six on your list are just ad-hoc justifications for believing in number one on your list. The desire to believe that "death isn't the end of your life" is so strong, that people need to find ways to convince themselves that number one is true, usually by "discovering" things like numbers two through six. In order to support one's belief about life eternal, one must conceive of a universe which allows such a thing - one must totally invent a new universe which no one else has ever seen or heard of. But reincarnation, past lives, heaven, hell, any hypothesis which says that "death isn't the end" is merely something that people choose to believe, not because they see evidence for it, but because they want to believe it.

In the face of no evidence for life after death, in the face of trillions of bloated dead corpses, one would stroll among them and imagine life eternal? Normally people like this would be called delusional.

Making the universe so complicated yet seemingly so convoluted and pointless, as described in numbers two through six, is more likely to be the wishful thinking of a frightened mortal, than the benevolent planning of a supreme being who will save you all from death, etc.

I suspect that you have accepted the reincarnation hypothesis because you find great comfort in the idea that life is eternal. But, your rationality keeps getting in the way - keeps pushing you out of your fantasy back into reality. If the universe works like they say it does with reincarnation etc, then why would X do Y? Why are X here? What's the point if X never Y? etc.

Believing in these mystical fantasies is very easy in the beginning, because the idea of eternal life is enough to focus one's attention all day long. But after a while those strange little questions start popping in. Things stop making sense after the original glow has faded, after reality bites you for abandoning it.

We try to push ourselves back to reality because it's an evolutionary instinct. Animals which base their actions on reality are animals which survive more often. And animals which ignore reality yet do what they wish are animals which survive less often. Knowing reality, even just on an instinctual level, is what enhances the life you currently have. Knowing reality from a level of sense perception, evidence, and testing, is the most ideal occurrence involving knowledge of reality, and is probably the best thing you can do for your physical health, and is probably the hardest thing you could try to emotionally accept.

why is it evil, why blame God for the problems we create ourselves. God didn't invade iraq, george bush did. great disinformation thread, everybody dies and lives happily everafter playing dodgeball with hitler. there is accountability on what you do in this life. Gods mercy is unmeasurable, what we think is evil, God forgives.

but some people are beyond help, and those people are usually the ones that in one way or another see the reality of God. He is no longer a belief of faith, but a fact. and they chose the other side knowing every evil act is a shot at God.

people suffer because of this, so if you are a victim of these people, you died because of God and God will take care of you.

1. You survive “death” in some way. Your ego remains intact, at least at first and in part. Your physical appearance is pretty much like it is now, though of a finer material and vibration.

I think we all survive death as the life force that is in all of us and everything else, as it is with electricity that runs our electrical appliances, the appliances are different Tv, washing machine, xbox360, Pc, Mac etc however the electricity is what makes them run and is the common element between all of these differences, as it is with all the people of the world.

4. Reincarnation is a basic truth. Your ego is part of a greater soul that experiences life through many different lives. At some level you forget your ‘previous’ lives so they do not interfere with your current ones.

There is only one soul expressed in infinite ways. You ask why bad things happen, have you ever had a nightmare? yes/no well some say life is but a dream, your nightmares scare you a little, or alot, some seem so real, being you are only a mere mortal your dream is centralized to you, maybe these bad things happen because of disturbances in a subtle field of the force that is all. gods nightmare!

I think most of lifes woes are due to the way we live our lifes, society and the world as a whole, our life in the modern age is based on false values and beliefs, garbage in garbage out, we need to strike a balance with the nature that surrounds us, and the nature within us, over come Greed, Hatred, Ignorance, obviously there is something wrong with the world today, giving up isn't the answer, winging and wining like a child wont help either.

*Don’t you dare tell me this is all self-inflicted. Maybe the truth is hard to swallow, just like that awe full medicine, but what is the truth? does anyone know? people really need to know thyself, start analyzing your life, do you meditate? do you exercise? do you look after your temple which you have been given custodian ship over? how much do you know about the air you breath, the water you drink, the food you eat? what is truly important in this world that we live?

Yes Rebel against Ignorance, Hatred, and Greed with Generosity, Love and knowledge!

reply to post by Tenko

Believing in these mystical fantasies is very easy in the beginning, because the idea of eternal life is enough to focus one's attention all day long. But after a while those strange little questions start popping in. Things stop making sense after the original glow has faded, after reality bites you for abandoning it.

Star for you Tenko, I haven't seen a better rationalist post in this entire thread. You have told it like it is, and rather persuasively to my way of thinking.

Whether "eternal life", or survival of death turns out to be true, or not, it is indeed something that seems to occupy the minds of the vast majority. To the point of obsession!

That being the case, it seems reasonable to to be "suspicious" of our motives. If we want something to be true badly enough, would we not be all too prone to overlooking "obvious" contrary indications?

We've all been there at some point, in various ways. Perhaps it was an old girlfriend, that everyone else could see right through, and yet we were "blind". Or maybe some of us live in "denial" about one thing or another, even though the particular thing is literally killing us! (Cue for me to take another sip of my red wine.)

Reality may be hard, probably even "harsh" at times, but you are absolutely right about the benefits that accrue to those who accept, and conform to it, rather than indulging in fantasies. And if there is "benefit" to conforming to reality, it would be logical to assume that there is a "penalty" exacted from those who refuse this rational conformity. The fact is, experience shows us, usually over and over, that our most cherished fantasies often do us real harm. The longer we dally with them, the higher the price we might pay.

This is not to say that we must all turn into Vulcans, but it is a "sobering" thought to realize that each time we choose to ignore reality, there may indeed be a price we pay. Certainly, those who delude themselves into thinking that laws of nature, such as inertia, do not apply to them, die just as surely when they crash into the concrete wall, as those of us who respect such laws.

Well, you have renewed my hope. At times, I read so many posts from the "New Age" majority that I begin to imagine that the battle is lost. I hope others will go back and read, and reread your excellent reply.

JR

Originally posted by Tenko
Believing in these mystical fantasies is very easy in the beginning, because the idea of eternal life is enough to focus one's attention all day long.

I find the opposite to be true.

For many people it is easier to believe that they have a firm grip on a simple reality.

They like to believe that they understand life and death, and once they die they are free from experience.

They like to believe they will never have to answer for the life they live.

However, I find that the more you experience and think about this reality the more obvious it becomes that this is only a temporary experience. You can never escape reality. The death of the physical vehicle does not end existence.

Originally posted by encoder
reply to post by canadiansenior70

 

i bet you never where the same again. not necessarily in a negative sense.

i did have experience with a NDE "victim". his character seemed way to different after that. the funny thing is we never told him that he died, but he knew. it was naive and childish from us. now i believe he feels a bit detached. sometimes even lonely. like he saw something never meant to see.

disappointment seems fitting. i never thought on this one.
maybe i'm just naive and childish.
welcome back! the world would be smaller without you.

Wow Thank you!!!

I am detached as well and I am a loner.

I never applied that to the 'Experience'. I applied it to the disability I was left with all these years.

Something for me to really think about!

Originally posted by Jezus

Originally posted by Tenko
Believing in these mystical fantasies is very easy in the beginning, because the idea of eternal life is enough to focus one's attention all day long.

I find the opposite to be true.

For many people it is easier to believe that they have a firm grip on a simple reality.

They like to believe that they understand life and death, and once they die they are free from experience.

They like to believe they will never have to answer for the life they live.

However, I find that the more you experience and think about this reality the more obvious it becomes that this is only a temporary experience. You can never escape reality. The death of the physical vehicle does not end existence.

Jezus, you don't KNOW about what happens after death. You may have beliefs, and some beliefs may be very well thought out, and even claim various types of "evidence" to support them, but they are BELIEFS nonetheless.

As an agnostic, I don't claim to "understand life and death", in fact, it's the religionists I know who seem to have this problem. Personally, I don't "know" what happens. Life is indeed "mysterious", we don't have answers that for some reason we feel entitled to. But, that doesn't stop some of us from believing in the various answers that have been proposed, and then dogmatized within religious paradigms, often with little or no real evidence.

As an agnostic, do I believe I never have to "answer for the life I have lived"? Hardly. That is the nauseating straw man that religionists prop up time and time again. I myself don't know anyone who imagines there are no consequences for actions. Such a state of mind would truly be out of touch with reality. Rather, there are many of us who look out upon a world where real consequences are most often here, and now (even if we don't see it right away).

Which is something Tenko treated of rather well I think. He/she will probably be along here shortly, but the fact is, Mother Nature herself already has all kinds of "penalties" built into the system, for those who refuse to conform to the reality that we live in. Regardless of our beliefs.

Some years ago there was a particular religious cult in the news. They held a firm belief that blood-transfusions were an abomination/sin/naughty/terrible thing. Well, it would have been fine and dandy, except that their child needed that terrible abomination, and the kid died. Hmmm. Seems like there are consequences to even such wispy things as "beliefs". Life and death.

Jezus, you are probably right in thinking that we survive death, and further, that there are perhaps consequences beyond the grave. But it's one thing to know such a thing, and another to merely believe it. The exact place where it can become a problem is when people take those beliefs, and turn it to some kind of actual harm, in the here and now. And it does happen, as in in my example. In fact, I might even venture to say that a tremendous amount of harm being done in this world is due to clashing beliefs.

Perhaps we can't avoid it, we all "believe", we all own our paradigms, but I continue to have hope that our God-given (forgive me!) ability to use logic, and reason, will one day get more respect. And as for fear of an afterlife, I would submit that we might do better fearing the consequences of our actions, and beliefs, in the here and now, as life passes us by so quickly.

JR

reply to post by JR MacBeth


Well said. It's okay to have beliefs but I also think more people need to admit when they might be wrong.

reply to post by schuyler


If you want to stop the proverbial 'wheel of karma', they say you must learn to forgive others, forgive yourself, and forgive 'God' for putting us in this ridiculous situation to begin with. I'm gonna try that for a few months, maybe a year, and see if it works. You're welcome to join me. If it doesn't, we'll start that soul-freedom club and convert everybody. I can think of worse ways to spend life, and at least religions are tax-exempt. I think there really might be something to that whole total forgiveness thing, but I'm willing to try anything once. Just so long as it isn't stupid.

Originally posted by JR MacBeth
Jezus, you don't KNOW about what happens after death. You may have beliefs, and some beliefs may be very well thought out, and even claim various types of "evidence" to support them, but they are BELIEFS nonetheless.

You could say we don't KNOW anything.

However, I believe that we are more than just biological robots because of a combination of logic and (believe it or not) science.

I believe the existence of a non physical piece to our consciousness is an unavoidable result of comprehending the abstract nature of thought and feeling in combination with an understanding of physiological psychology (my main area of study).

I believe that death of the physical vehicle is not the death of consciousness simply because I have no real reason to believe it. When you synthesize all the information I find it extremely obvious. I believe this just as strongly as I believe in the laws of physics.

I think the best way to comprehend this to think about the connections between multiple disciplines.

Cognitive psychology, neuroscience, biological chemistry, linguistics, and sleep studies.

Originally posted by JR MacBeth
Some years ago there was a particular religious cult in the news. They held a firm belief that blood-transfusions were an abomination/sin/naughty/terrible thing. Well, it would have been fine and dandy, except that their child needed that terrible abomination, and the kid died. Hmmm. Seems like there are consequences to even such wispy things as "beliefs". Life and death.

We often find other people's beliefs strange...but like you said, everything is really just a belief...

reply to post by Jezus


Sigh....

It's really as simple as this:-

you have a brain, it gives you sensory perception of the reality we exist in, if your brain dies, your sensory perception dies, you do not see, you do not hear, you do not smell, you do not feel. You cease to be.

Please don't claim your "theories" as science or logic because it is neither, there is no basis for your pseudo-intellectual ideas of an afterlife, no data, no evidence of which to work with or make a presumption.

What you express is simply pseudo-science.

reply to post by Jezus


Some of us require the conviction of evidence to make a belief.

If someone tells me unicorns exist, i want evidence. Or i won't believe it.

It's because of the nature of these unfalsifiable hypothesis that we have such deceptive "professions" as Phycics, Mediums, Fortune Tellers, Palm Readers, Tarot Card Readers.

Magic is different as it is the art behind it, that is the whole purpose behind it, to be bedazzled at how the person has tricked you, or gave you an illusionary perception of reality. But people don't literally believe "magic" is real, at least intelligent people anyway.

Nor should you believe someone if they claim "HELL" and "HEAVEN" exists as potential afterlives just because you can't prove it right or wrong.